Michelin Carbons vs Pro2Race ?

I used to use Carbons, but then switched to the Dynamics. I've never
found them particularly slow--a bit heavy, but they roll quite nicely.
I guess the answer is that I couldn't tell much difference between the
Carbons and the Dynamics. If you can, then you might want to stick
with the expensive spread.

RS says...

Quoted message said:

I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide the
Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeabley better then the cheapie Michelin
Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons similiar to the
Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel and traction? I know
the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

thanks

Rick

The Dynamic is a low end tire. The Pro2Race and the Carbon are both
high end tires. The Carbon will be much closer to the Pro2Race in
performance. But since you already have some of the best tires money
can buy, use them until you need to change them. If you have too many
flats with the Pro2Race, switch to the Carbons.

I have had a set of the Carbons on my road bike since last spring and
have been very pleased. Seem to ride just fine and only one puncture
(thorn) in over 4000 miles.

RS said:

I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide the
Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeabley better then the cheapie Michelin
Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons similiar to the
Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel and traction? I know
the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

The Pro2 Race are definitely smoother riding, but the Carbons do last
longer -- probably 30%, besides being cheaper. Also, the Carbons are more
damage resistant. Either is a good choice, depending on your needs and
budget.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

The Pro2 Race are definitely smoother riding, but the Carbons do last
longer -- probably 30%, besides being cheaper. Also, the Carbons are more
damage resistant. Either is a good choice, depending on your needs and
budget.

I second the opinion of the Carbons being more damage resistant. I had a
pair of Pro Race and both tires were destroyed by a sidewall cut from a
loose piece of rock on the street within 2 weeks of each other.

I've been riding on the same streets with Carbons now and I haven't had a
puncture (other than a thorn once) in almost a year.

Personally, I didn't notice any difference in smoother riding. If there are
any differences, they are probably minimal and there's no way I would be
able to tell by riding on normal roads.

--Noel

RS said:

I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide the
Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeabley better then the cheapie Michelin
Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons similiar to the
Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel and traction? I know
the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

The Pro2Race seems to ride a bit nicer than the Carbon. However, like
Noel I have had some issues with the durability of the sidewalls on the
Pro2Race. The Carbons are very durable. Since Michelin introduced the
new "Krylion Carbon", you can find the original Carbons on closeout all
over the place (although it might be tougher to find 25mm). I wish
Michelin hadn't gotten rid of the Axial Pro. In my opinion, that was
just about the perfect tire.

Peter.

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide
the Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeabley better then the
cheapie Michelin Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons
similiar to the Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel
and traction? I know the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

Quoted message said:

The Pro2 Race are definitely smoother riding, but the Carbons do
last longer -- probably 30%, besides being cheaper. Also, the
Carbons are more damage resistant. Either is a good choice,
depending on your needs and budget.

Do these two tires the same cross section? If so, how do you feel
that difference? How do they conpare to the Continental Ultra 2000 in
wear, and above all in traction for wet and dry.

Jobst Brandt

jobst.brandt said:

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide the
Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeabley better then the cheapie
Michelin Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons similiar
to the Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel and traction?
I know the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

Quoted message said:

The Pro2 Race are definitely smoother riding, but the Carbons do last
longer -- probably 30%, besides being cheaper. Also, the Carbons are
more damage resistant. Either is a good choice, depending on your
needs and budget.

Do these two tires the same cross section? If so, how do you feel that
difference? How do they conpare to the Continental Ultra 2000 in wear,
and above all in traction for wet and dry.

The same cross section but the Carbon has an extra ply, so its casing may
not be as supple. For whatever reason the Pro2 Race seems smoother.

The Carbon is probably comparable to the Ultra 2000, but with sturdier
sidewalls, and according to tests, less rolling resistance. Both are
popular around here. Most riders seem to get 3-4k miles out of either,
despite hilly terrain and rough pavement.

The Pro2 Race seems to work well for the fastest descenders, even in the
rain. The Carbon and Ultra 2000 may have marginally better grip because
of their carbon black tread, but not enough to matter.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I've somewhat new to Roadbikes. I'm currently using in 25c wide
> the Michelin Pro2Race, which roll noticeably better then the
> cheap Michelin Dynamics that came with the bike. Are the Carbons
> similar to the Pro2Race or the Dynamics in terms of overall feel
> and traction? I know the Carbons are supposed to last longer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Pro2 Race are definitely smoother riding, but the Carbons do
last longer -- probably 30%, besides being cheaper. Also, the
Carbons are more damage resistant. Either is a good choice,
depending on your needs and budget.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do these two tires the same cross section? If so, how do you feel
that difference? How do they compare to the Continental Ultra 2000
in wear, and above all in traction for wet and dry.

Quoted message said:

The same cross section but the Carbon has an extra ply, so its
casing may not be as supple. For whatever reason the Pro2 Race
seems smoother.

Quoted message said:

The Carbon is probably comparable to the Ultra 2000, but with
sturdier sidewalls, and according to tests, less rolling resistance.
Both are popular around here. Most riders seem to get 3-4k miles
out of either, despite hilly terrain and rough pavement.

What do you mean by "sturdier sidewalls" and for what benefit? How
does this result in lower rolling resistance.

Quoted message said:

The Pro2 Race seems to work well for the fastest descenders, even in
the rain. The Carbon and Ultra 2000 may have marginally better grip
because of their carbon black tread, but not enough to matter.

How has this been determined?

I am using several Ultra 2000 tires, that were given to me, for the
tire blow-off tests that I mentioned months ago. This involves a
data recorder, mounted in the wheel, connected to a pressure sensor on
the valve and a thermocouple on the rim. First tests gave interesting
results, different from expected, giving a new perspective to
inflation pressure and tire blow-offs.

More later.

Jobst Brandt

Jobst wrote:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

were given to me, for the
tire blow-off tests that I mentioned months ago.

-snip-

Now you've got my curiosity.
Is there any place we can find these results & 'new perspective'?

Thanks, John

"john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jobst wrote:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

were given to me, for the
tire blow-off tests that I mentioned months ago.

-snip-

Now you've got my curiosity.
Is there any place we can find these results & 'new perspective'?

Further, what tires are involved? Is the *new* Avocet Fasgrip SL, formerly
Avocet Road 30, included? I know the newer Avocets are now made in Korea
instead of Japan. Is there a difference between the two?

John Drew said:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...were given to me, for the tire blow-off tests that I mentioned
months ago.

Quoted message said:

Now you've got my curiosity. Is there any place we can find these
results & 'new perspective'?

As I said, more later. You wouldn't want me to be exposed to some
fine point nit pickers here would you. I think these results show
that what people, including me, thought caused tire blow-off does not
do so. In that light, tire manufacturers might be able to change tire
designs to accommodate this.

What peaked my interest was that riders said they regularly rode on
140psi while I and others had tires blow-off that were initially
inflated to 100psi. That item has been resolved. Now the exact cause
must be determined and we are doing that.

Jobst Brandt

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...were given to me, for the tire blow-off tests that I mentioned
months ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now you've got my curiosity. Is there any place we can find these
results & 'new perspective'?

Quoted message said:

Further, what tires are involved? Is the *new* Avocet Fasgrip SL,
formerly Avocet Road 30, included? I know the newer Avocets are now
made in Korea instead of Japan. Is there a difference between the
two?

These are not tire tests but a test to assess what causes tire
blow-off, therefore a major long term tire brand Continental Pro 2000
is being used.

I have no connections to Avocet tires these days. I still have a
stash of them but see that in the distant future I will probably be
riding something else.

Jobst Brandt

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

John Drew said:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...were given to me, for the tire blow-off tests that I mentioned
months ago.

Quoted message said:

Now you've got my curiosity. Is there any place we can find these
results & 'new perspective'?

As I said, more later. You wouldn't want me to be exposed to some
fine point nit pickers here would you. I think these results show
that what people, including me, thought caused tire blow-off does not
do so. In that light, tire manufacturers might be able to change tire
designs to accommodate this.

What peaked my interest was that riders said they regularly rode on
140psi while I and others had tires blow-off that were initially
inflated to 100psi. That item has been resolved. Now the exact cause
must be determined and we are doing that.

Looking forward to your report.

That is `piqued'.

--
Michael Press

Matt O'Toole said:

The Pro2 Race seems to work well for the fastest descenders, even in the
rain.

Here it's always said that the PRO2RACE have less grip in the rain.

Gr, Derk

Michael Press said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ...were given to me, for the tire blow-off tests that I mentioned
> months ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now you've got my curiosity. Is there any place we can find these
results & 'new perspective'?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, more later. You wouldn't want me to be exposed to some
fine point nit pickers here would you. I think these results show
that what people, including me, thought caused tire blow-off does
not do so. In that light, tire manufacturers might be able to
change tire designs to accommodate this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What peaked my interest was that riders said they regularly rode on
140psi while I and others had tires blow-off that were initially
inflated to 100psi. That item has been resolved. Now the exact
cause must be determined and we are doing that.

Quoted message said:

Looking forward to your report.

Quoted message said:

That is 'piqued'.

As in "poked".

Jobst Brandt

jobst.brandt said:

What do you mean by "sturdier sidewalls" and for what benefit?

The Carbons have an extra ply, and their sidewalls don't unravel like the
Contis'. Empirically the Carbons seem to be relatively damage proof,
while the Contis are not.

Quoted message said:

How does this result in lower rolling resistance.

Obviously it doesn't, since thicker sidewalls usually mean higher rolling
resistance. But in spite of that the Carbons have shown lower rolling
resistance than most, in tire tests done by European magazines. This data
has been posted here ad nauseum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Pro2 Race seems to work well for the fastest descenders, even in
the rain. The Carbon and Ultra 2000 may have marginally better grip
because of their carbon black tread, but not enough to matter.

How has this been determined?

Again, tire tests have given higher cornering grip scores to the Carbon,
and the black Conti tires (Gatorskin and Ultra 2000). But as far as the
difference goes, as I said the fastest descenders seem to do fine with the
silica-treaded Pro2 Race. They're popular tires among pros. Some of the
fastest descenders around here (Cat IIs and ex-pros) ride them and still
beat everyone, without problems, where there are plenty of steep mountain
descents and it rains frequently.

Quoted message said:

I am using several Ultra 2000 tires, that were given to me, for the tire
blow-off tests that I mentioned months ago. This involves a data
recorder, mounted in the wheel, connected to a pressure sensor on the
valve and a thermocouple on the rim. First tests gave interesting
results, different from expected, giving a new perspective to inflation
pressure and tire blow-offs.

More later.

Keep it coming! FWIW the Carbons seem to be a tight fit on most rims, if
that makes a difference.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

I am using several Ultra 2000 tires, that were given to me, for the
tire blow-off tests that I me ntioned months ago.

Are these the "old" Ultra 2K (brown sidewall), or the "new" model
(black sidewall)? I suppose they are all 25mm, wire bead? Any comments
on them? All are 57tpi nylon casing tires, by the way. Michelin Carbon
is 127tpi but with an extra ply bead to bead.

Quoted message said:

From simply handling them, I would say that the Michelin Carbons use a

higher durometer rubber. They also give it a slightly stippled/matte
finish.

For what it's worth, supposedly the "unravelling sidewall" problem with
Conti's was actually unravelling of the cotton chafing strip, which
occurred under certain unspecified weather condtions (according to
Conti). The new black-walled versions are supposed to have fixed that.
Not sure if any of the later brown ones also did.

s

George King said:

Quoted message said:

I am using several Ultra 2000 tires, that were given to me, for the
tire blow-off tests that I me ntioned months ago.

What is it with your newsreader that puts spaces into words, as in
"me ntioned"?

Quoted message said:

Are these the "old" Ultra 2K (brown sidewall), or the "new" model
(black sidewall)? I suppose they are all 25mm, wire bead? Any
comments on them? All are 57TPI nylon casing tires, by the
way. Michelin Carbon is 127TPI but with an extra ply bead to bead.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From simply handling them, I would say that the Michelin Carbons
use a higher durometer rubber. They also give it a slightly
stippled/matte finish.

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth, supposedly the "unraveling sidewall" problem
with Conti's was actually unraveling of the cotton chafing strip,
which occurred under certain unspecified weather conditions
(according to Conti). The new black-walled versions are supposed to
have fixed that. Not sure if any of the later brown ones also did.

These are "new" brown sidewall tires, the kind local shops are selling
right now. I haven't seen the black version here. Anyway, others who
use them have not yet complained about fraying of the casing or
chafing strip and we ride lots of rough unpaved roads with loose RR
Ballast rock all over.

Jobst Brandt