Meths or Gaz

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

it depends what you mean by "best"...

It's a lot easier to ration meths according to how much you actually
need, as unlike gas you're not stuck with however much happens to be in
the canisters at your disposal.
OTOH, gas is cleaner, more controllable and more convenient, and more
efficient as well.

Another factor is the stove: a compact gas head like a Pocket Rocket
perched on a gas can gives a lot less weight to your actual stove setup
than a spirit burner like a trangia, and even on a short trip weight is
weight and bulk is bulk. There again, if conditions are nasty I'd much
rather be cooking on a trangia (gas or meths) than on a much less
stable, much less shielded mini stove head, and that's true whether I'm
inside or out.

I generally prefer gas, but I'll be happy to take meths if the
quantities of gas in full or part used cylinders I have doesn't really
match up with the journey at hand and I don't mind the extra weight of
the trangia. I might take the trangia with the gas burner as another
option.

However, I think your choice of stove is actually going to make more
difference than your choice of fuel.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more than
3 days at a time?

Not enough info in your question really.

If you want very light weight then I would suggest a meths-burning "pop-
can" stove. They are far lighter and less bulky than a trangia, but not
as good in a hurricane!

If you can manage to carry one, a trangia is excellent.

Meths is quite bulky and you need to be able to judge well or measure it
out fairly accurately otherwise it can be easy to run out or bring too
much home.

Gas is good and very convenient if you don't mind the additional weight
of the canisters - and you may need at least 2 depending on your style of
cooking and whether you are setting off with a part-filled one. Remember
that you have to carry them back as well, so the bulk doesn't go down
over the 3 days, even though you are using the gas.

Overall, I suspect that for 3 days or less meths probably works out
slightly lighter and more efficient than gas if you are doing a small
amount of cooking, but it isn't as quick and convenient.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Remove blockage to use my email address
Web: http://www.nascom.info & http://mixpix.batcave.net

Mick said:

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more than
3 days at a time?

Not enough info in your question really.

If you want very light weight then I would suggest a meths-burning "pop-
can" stove. They are far lighter and less bulky than a trangia, but not
as good in a hurricane!

If you can manage to carry one, a trangia is excellent.

Meths is quite bulky and you need to be able to judge well or measure it
out fairly accurately otherwise it can be easy to run out or bring too
much home.

Gas is good and very convenient if you don't mind the additional weight
of the canisters - and you may need at least 2 depending on your style of
cooking and whether you are setting off with a part-filled one. Remember
that you have to carry them back as well, so the bulk doesn't go down
over the 3 days, even though you are using the gas.

Overall, I suspect that for 3 days or less meths probably works out
slightly lighter and more efficient than gas if you are doing a small
amount of cooking, but it isn't as quick and convenient.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Remove blockage to use my email address
Web:http://www.nascom.info&http://mixpix.batcave.net

I played around with the pop-can type stove to see what they could do
and then found this site which convinced me that I should stick with
the gas stove :-

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Index.htm

Gives a huge amount of info on all things relevent to back packing.

This site :- http://www.backpacking.net/

possibly gives the opposite opinion but the US packers are into their
meths so tend to favour that over gas.

I suspect that if I was packing solo for several days I might look
again at meths but I've no plans for that at he moment. It would be
interesting to know what Judith used on her TGO trip and get her
opinion.

Rob

Mick said:

Overall, I suspect that for 3 days or less meths probably works out
slightly lighter and more efficient than gas if you are doing a small
amount of cooking, but it isn't as quick and convenient.

Though note you can get pretty small gas cans for small trips: we had a
fairly light backpacking weekend this one just passed and had one of
Coleman's "100" size bijou-canisterettes, which doesn't really take up
any more space than my 300ml meths bottle and I suspect weighs less, and
was easily up to all the cooking we did.

But the problem with gas is you end up with various fractionally filled
cans which have to wait around for a car camping trip. I think we have
3 (one small, one medium and one largeish) that are less than full at
the mo, and it rather counteracts the convenience to a degree.

Or you could go for the thermal efficiency of gas and some of the
control with the custom quantities of meths with one of the more
controllable pressure stoves, but they need practice and are relatively
fiddly and smelly and in many cases noisy (there are exceptions, like
the MSR Wisperlite). Absolutely the best thing for snow melting, but I
can't say I'm a fan for ease and convenience reasons and mine doesn't
come out /that/ often, especially if I know I'll probably be cooking
inside the tent.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

I was looking at using my coleman F1 or my pepsi can meths burner
(just made last night) the main differences are time to boil 500ml. F1
approx 3/4 mins, pepsi can burner 10 mins. But time is not the issue,
cost of fuel is significant and quantities to take. Size of both (F1
with gaz & pepsi can with meths are about the same) but weight is more
with gas.

Gazman said:

I was looking at using my coleman F1 or my pepsi can meths burner
(just made last night) the main differences are time to boil 500ml. F1
approx 3/4 mins, pepsi can burner 10 mins. But time is not the issue,
cost of fuel is significant and quantities to take. Size of both (F1
with gaz & pepsi can with meths are about the same) but weight is more
with gas.

Does that still account for the weight of fuel when you're running for
considerably more time? The more you use the stove the more the
effective difference between meths and gas weight becomes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Gazman said:

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

I was looking at using my coleman F1 or my pepsi can meths burner
(just made last night) the main differences are time to boil 500ml. F1
approx 3/4 mins, pepsi can burner 10 mins. But time is not the issue,
cost of fuel is significant and quantities to take. Size of both (F1
with gaz & pepsi can with meths are about the same) but weight is more
with gas.

You may need to adjust the size of the holes in your pepsi can stove
it really should be an awful lot quicker than that IME.

"But the problem with gas is you end up with various fractionally
filled
cans which have to wait around for a car camping trip. I think we
have
3 (one small, one medium and one largeish) that are less than full at
the mo, and it rather counteracts the convenience to a degree."

Not that I would recommend such a practice but if one owns two
Lindal valve heads (one with a tap valve)and access
to some braided hydraulic hose and fittings a filler line may be
fashioned. The receiver canister is chilled in the freezer and the
filler left at ambient.
Known weight of a full canister and using a balance to check. As
for how much Propane remains in a part used melange canister used in
hot or cold climates, I care not to guess. Most of you are aware that
the Propane will vacate the vessel much sooner thab the Butane when
the weather is cold.
Other methods also not recommended can be employed for Winter
mixture cartridges.
Try not to keep a cigarette on the go while performing this operation.
For those who employ olde worldie gaz pricked cartridges, maybe you
are visiting South East Asia.

On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 09:26:34 -0700, [email hidden] wrote:

Meths tastes better, just don't drink too much at once or it curls
your toes!
--

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The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Not that I would recommend such a practice but if one owns two
Lindal valve heads (one with a tap valve)and access
to some braided hydraulic hose and fittings a filler line may be
fashioned. The receiver canister is chilled in the freezer and the
filler left at ambient.

Why the freezer? If the gas is in liquid form it should drain from one
canister to the other under gravity.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Gazman said:

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

I was looking at using my coleman F1 or my pepsi can meths burner
(just made last night) the main differences are time to boil 500ml. F1
approx 3/4 mins, pepsi can burner 10 mins. But time is not the issue,
cost of fuel is significant and quantities to take. Size of both (F1
with gaz & pepsi can with meths are about the same) but weight is more
with gas.

As you've got one of the lightest and most efficient stoves available
already - the Coleman F1 Lite, I'm surprised you've asked the question
in the first place! (The F1 is streets better than the overrated Pocket
Rocket).

IMHO meths stoves rate just above the hexi ones for effectiveness. Meths
stoves are inefficient, heavy (because of the weight of the fuel),
smelly, difficult to light in the cold, and downright dangerous in the
vestibule of a tent. I've got a 'Brasslite' meths backpacking stove
('Light as a Feather, Hot as a Torch'😉, which I took on a backpacking
trip of about 3 days. It was pretty much useless - glugged the fuel and
took ages to boil 500ml. I've also got a Trangia, which I took for a
couple of days - weighed a ton and took up half my pack in volume. It's
back in the corner of the loft, where it'll stay.

I've got several gas, petrol, parrafin and hexi stoves of various
designs, which I sometimes use for fun on a day trip, or camping from
the back of the car. (I've even got an Army No.12 cooker - all stainless
steel and weighs 10lb). I'm also experimenting with wood stoves made
from dog food tins. These show great promise where small dry timber is
available. I'm post some images when I've finalised the design.

The only stove I now take for more than one day trips is the F1. To
economise on fuel I use a cosy I've made from radiator insulation. It's
probably one of my most important cooking aids. I bring the water to the
boil, put the food in, bring back to the boil, then turn off the gas and
put the pot in the cosy. It'll 'simmer' for as long as needed, and still
be too hot to eat after 1/2 hour.

Jim Ford

Quoted message said:

Not that I would recommend such a practice but if one owns two
Lindal valve heads (one with a tap valve)and access
to some braided hydraulic hose and fittings a filler line may be
fashioned. The receiver canister is chilled in the freezer and the
filler left at ambient.

"Why the freezer? If the gas is in liquid form it should drain from
one
canister to the other under gravity."

Internal pressure for Butane at 0 celsius is zero, for Propane it is
4 Bar. At 20 celsius Butane pushes 1.3 Bar and Propane 7.5 Bar. The
vapour phase is decreased as the temperature inside the cartridge/
canister is lowered.
Try filling a Butane lighter after placing it in a freezer, its
reservoir fills easily. It is much easier to fill a cooled canister
from a warm canister.
On reflection it was highly irresponsible to suggest that this
practice can be carried out but I did state that I do not recommend
the practice. Just that it is possible.

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

Neither - petrol's the stuff !

Hywel

hyweldavies said:

Neither - petrol's the stuff !

Thanks for pointing that out! I swore by petrol for years!

But let's be honest about this, it's damn heavy (the stove as well as the
fuel) and it has a tendency to turn into a flamethrower every now and again
(fun I know, but it can spoil your evening meal, not to mention your tent!).

I used meths for a long time before switching to petrol, and much as I liked
it, the stove was heavy (Trangia) and even if it wasn't, the meths was heavy
too, and didn't last long. I reckon a litre of meths only tended to last a
weekend, whereas I could get about 5 days out of 0.6 litres of petrol. And
petrol is quite happy to burn ferociously in the snow. Try that with meths!

But since switching to gas, I've got a tiny stove which is so light that
would probably float away on the breeze if I let go of it, and the fuel is
lighter and lasts longer. It even works in pretty cold temperatures. On the
whole I'd vote for gas if light weight is the main issue. But I still have a
fondness for petrol. Meths is quaint and I have nostalgic memories of it,
but to be honest, it was pretty [censored] really.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/weblog/

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] contains these words:

Quoted message said:

"Why the freezer? If the gas is in liquid form it should drain from
one
canister to the other under gravity."

Quoted message said:

Internal pressure for Butane at 0 celsius is zero, for Propane it is
4 Bar. At 20 celsius Butane pushes 1.3 Bar and Propane 7.5 Bar. The
vapour phase is decreased as the temperature inside the cartridge/
canister is lowered.
Try filling a Butane lighter after placing it in a freezer, its
reservoir fills easily. It is much easier to fill a cooled canister
from a warm canister.

Not being a smoker I wouldn't know about Butane lighters by why should
the internal gas pressure provide much resistance to the flow of the
much denser liquid?

Quoted message said:

On reflection it was highly irresponsible to suggest that this
practice can be carried out but I did state that I do not recommend
the practice. Just that it is possible.

It works with full size Calor gas cylinders.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

If using meths, buy it in Calais as "alcool a bruler" at a quarter the
UK price!

I'm still trying to work this one out - there is no excise duty on UK
meth, nor on the uncoloured french version, and French VAT is higher
than UK. Anyone any ideas?

Tip: At home keep an empty gas canister, so that you can put it on the
weight side of the scales, and just weigh the gas.

Richard

hyweldavies said:

Gazman said:

Which is best Meths or Gas, for cooking whilst backpacking no more
than 3 days at a time?

Neither - petrol's the stuff !

Use 'Panel Wipe' which is petroleum naptha - same as Coleman White Gas.
It's very pure and clean - it has to be to leave no residue on panels
prior to spraying.

Petrol's OK, but in the cold the small self presurising ones tend to be
difficult to get to run fiercely. With the SVEA 123 or Optimus 8R you
can get a pump to increase the tank pressure. The Baby Enders has a pump
built in. Really, in expedition conditions, you should go for a pumped
paraffin one.

Jim Ford

Richard Spencer said:

If using meths, buy it in Calais as "alcool a bruler" at a quarter the
UK price!

Its cheaper because it taints your food far worse than meths if you
get it wrong 😉

It really is foul stuff.

Quoted message said:

I'm still trying to work this one out - there is no excise duty on UK
meth, nor on the uncoloured french version, and French VAT is higher
than UK. Anyone any ideas?

Tip: At home keep an empty gas canister, so that you can put it on the
weight side of the scales, and just weigh the gas.

Try floating a full and an empty canister. Make a note of the level
each floats at and its then easy to work out the percentage left in a
part full canister. This has the advantage of being easy to do in the
field with no special equipment.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Roger <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Not that I would recommend such a practice but if one owns two
Lindal valve heads (one with a tap valve)and access
to some braided hydraulic hose and fittings a filler line may be
fashioned. The receiver canister is chilled in the freezer and the
filler left at ambient.

Why the freezer? If the gas is in liquid form it should drain from one
canister to the other under gravity.

It might get there eventually, but typically you get an airlock (well
'gas-bubble-lock'😉 blocking things. Depends on the smallest hole you are
typing to poke it through on the way. With a pressure differential it is
being 'blasted in' at several Bar.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,630 Km walked. 1,677Km PROWs surveyed. 30.5% complete.