Message direct to all fellow professional cyclists

"Ronde Champ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey,

We all need to step back and recognize the damage the drugs are doing
to the sport of cycling. At the risk of revealing my true identity,
the sport of professional cycling is at risk due to the negative image
brought on by controversial drug use.
There are so many riders doing drugs, that it is really difficult for
the clean riders to compete. As Alex Zuelle said, "It's hard to do
55mph when everyone else is doing 70mph." Well, until they remove
rules, and have an open category of no holds barred, this will always
be done in the shadows of cycling.
I'm not even calculating the long term health risks. Read up on how
many 45-50 year old former football players die from various organ
disorders. No 22 year old cyclist faced with the stark reality of
working a real job if they don't make it ever cares about this. They,
'you' will live forever. And what's wrong with just stepping up for
this next big race. I'll only do it ONE time.
I know the same riders never care about sponsors. Think about why
they put cash into cycling. It isn't to make your dreams come true.
It's advertising 101. All the bad press cycling is getting threatens
to kill our sport. The sponsors will gravitate to other sports or ways
to get their brand out there. Look at mainstream press in this buildup
to the Tour de France. Find an article that doesn't mention drugs.
CEO's will not continue sponsoring if it means the could suffer a hit
to their company name and more importantly, bottomline and/or stock
price.
If everyone is doing the 'program', aren't we still just competing
against each other on a new level? It would be beautiful for my
wallet, health, mental state, and grandchildren to be, if we could
just race our bikes while remaining clean. The ironic thing is that
many of us started riding because it is so healthy. It makes you
strong, and can add quality to our years, and years to our life. What
we are all playing with tampers with that, and may even be the most
unhealthy thing we ever do to our body. Most o fthis has become back
alley, and unregulated. I'll shot this cause this veteran rider does.
I have know idea of side effects, other than I will ride real fast for
the next race.

5 years from now things will be much worse for our sport, or much
better. It will not continue down this same path. Maybe WADA and USADA
and IOC and UCI will actually win this war on drugs. For my health, I
hope so. Until then, I have a syringe waiting for me. It is Friday
after all. Shoot up day for a jobber pro like me. I have work to do
this weekend.

Thanks,
Ronde Champ

Oh really! It's only 5% of the peloton that are using drugs. The top guys
must be clean--they say they are and they've never tested positive.

whats this business of not revealing your "identity"... i am erik saunders...
my name is ERIK SAUNDERS... i have a website... its called eriksaunders.com....

drugs suck, duh... i laugh at all those guys trying to break through over there
banging their heads against the wall... then i have to hear from some cat 3s
about how the US pros arent good and we cant compete with the europeans... one
of these days people will start to get it- the more they fry dudes like doper
dave millar...he isnt a bad person, or a cheater in my eyes... he just looks
like an idiot after all that has been said and all that has happened... i feel
sorry for him a bit... and a bit not... and then after that i dont too much
care...

the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice system where
they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS like doping... there is
an arrogance about the way they are doing this all that bothers me... believe
me, there are a lot of other things that they could be doing with their time
and over reaching power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france where the
cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...

there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they should do less
to keep things honest... i just object to the french modus operandi...

anyway- doping is such a big problem... bike racing is stupid anyway- lets not
get carried away about the relative importance of cycling in the grand
scheme... its just a big self- gratifying ego-fest... no dopers are taking away
your chance to get to heaven... millar took epo... do you loose sleep at
night?... does it keep you kids from a quality education?... does it stop you
family from eating?... bike racing will still exist... the 30 plusers will
still want to race in the industrial parks of southern california... dont
worry... then i can race with them since pro cycling will die and i wont have a
team anymore... i will have just as much fun...

after some consideration i have decided that if the LA sheriffs took doping
seriously as a crime worth investigating as rigorously as auto theft then i
would take drugs... because then i could get chased and hit 11 times with a
flashlight while lying prone- surrendering... then i could sue for millions and
not care about having gotten a suspension and having been fired from my team...

i guess in some ways it might better to live in france where the cops dont beat
you up... unless you are black or arab and live in the ghetto... [censored]... never
mind

Yeah, I agree with Erik... the French police seems to be completely
warped.... This should be a case of the UCI and IOC, not of the
French police.

I think they are just trying to "score" politically. perhaps if and when
someone (for example UCI, IOC, Organisations) put out charges on the
dopee for monetary cheating (in other words doing monetary damage), THEN
the judical system should kick in.

Oh well, maybe the French police is doing the right thing (both
morally/legally). BLEH

I admit I don't care.... pro-cyclists are still my heroes when they do
battle in France... doped or not.

--

[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

... i am glad i dont live in france where the cops can pull
you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...

This from a black male in America? That's funny....

erik saunders said:

the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice
system where they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS
like doping... there is an arrogance about the way they are doing
this all that bothers me... believe me, there are a lot of other
things that they could be doing with their time and over reaching
power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france
where the cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all
pretty much...

there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they
should do less to keep things honest... i just object to the french
modus operandi...

Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is against the
law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to enhance athletic
performance, or just to get high, or to get hard, makes no difference.

When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO because it
wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained it, taken it and sold
it to other patients, I'd have been in big trouble. Why should cyclists get
off easier than the rest of the general population?

Quoted message said:

Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is against the
law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to enhance athletic
performance, or just to get high, or to get hard, makes no difference.

When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO because it
wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained it, taken it and sold
it to other patients, I'd have been in big trouble. Why should cyclists get
off easier than the rest of the general population?

no doubt... as a law enforcment official you can go about your business
investigating and prosecuting drug trafficking rings, normal... or you can do a
big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the alpha
and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a long
line of illegal activity... lets see if they make as big a deal of where the
drugs came from and who distributed them... was it someone at amgen who steals
directy out of stock?.. or is it a pharmacist who sells things to people that
he shouldnt?... does this pharmacist also sell other drugs to people?... is he
a source of X on the street?... is he selling vicodin or xanex to who ever
wants it?... thats the real deal there my freind... are kids in clubs getting
hooked on [censored] that comes from this guy?... are they commiting crime to support
an addiction?... thats the impact on society that needs to be judged in order
to assign some relative importance to a case like this...

laws dont concern me in the same way that they concern you i guess... i guess
it is illegal in some places to import drugs from canada... i know people who
get the hookup on some of their medications through underground channels...
lock em up?... if you need epo for you health then i am not going to act like
you sold crack to a pregnant mother because you found a cheaper way to get it,
or becasue you got your hands on it before it was available... it would be
dangerous for you to do it without a doctor to help you, but that stuff aint
rocket science and if you think you have it figured out then i am not going to
tell you its wrong for you to administer it to yourself... you arent hurting
me... and you arent doing anything to make the world a worse place to live
in...

erik saunders said:

Quoted message said:

Um, buying, taking and selling drugs without a prescription is
against the law, in France as well as in the US. Whether it's to
enhance athletic performance, or just to get high, or to get hard,
makes no difference.

When I was on dialysis (in the US), I did not have access to EPO
because it wasn't yet approved by the FDA. Had I somehow obtained
it, taken it and sold it to other patients, I'd have been in big
trouble. Why should cyclists get off easier than the rest of the
general population?

no doubt... as a law enforcment official you can go about your
business investigating and prosecuting drug trafficking rings,
normal... or you can do a big overblown public display making the
guys who are using look like the alpha and omega of a crime, when in
reality they are at the skinny tail end of a long line of illegal
activity... lets see if they make as big a deal of where the drugs
came from and who distributed them... was it someone at amgen who
steals directy out of stock?.. or is it a pharmacist who sells things
to people that he shouldnt?... does this pharmacist also sell other
drugs to people?... is he a source of X on the street?... is he
selling vicodin or xanex to who ever wants it?... thats the real deal
there my freind... are kids in clubs getting hooked on [censored] that
comes from this guy?... are they commiting crime to support an
addiction?... thats the impact on society that needs to be judged in
order to assign some relative importance to a case like this...

laws dont concern me in the same way that they concern you i guess...
i guess it is illegal in some places to import drugs from canada... i
know people who get the hookup on some of their medications through
underground channels... lock em up?... if you need epo for you health
then i am not going to act like you sold crack to a pregnant mother
because you found a cheaper way to get it, or becasue you got your
hands on it before it was available... it would be dangerous for you
to do it without a doctor to help you, but that stuff aint rocket
science and if you think you have it figured out then i am not going
to tell you its wrong for you to administer it to yourself... you
arent hurting me... and you arent doing anything to make the world a
worse place to live in...

You seem to be confusing the police and the press. The police are the ones
who investigate the crime, the press are the ones who splash it all over the
front pages. (And the police aren't the ones who make the laws either.)

I'm not saying I agree with drug policy, either in the US or France (whether
medical or recreational). In fact I don't. From what I can tell, my view is
probably pretty close to your's. But I don't think the police should let
athletes off easier than the rest of the population, just because they're
famous, or heros, or generate a lot of money for the country and sponsors.

In fact, I am sure that in terms of severity of punishment, the doctors and
distributors involved will received a much harsher judgement than those who
were only users (and occupy more of the police's and judge's time as well).
But which one will you think will get all the media attention? Not the guy
who works in the lab or at the pharmacy, but the world famous cyclist.

Yes......... FRANCE SUXXXX!!!!!

Napoleonic Justice...
GUILTY till proven Innocent!

Butt! Suddam F'ing Hussen was INNOCENT till proven GUILTY

On 6/25/04 5:43 AM, in article [email hidden],

erik saunders said:

whats this business of not revealing your "identity"... i am erik saunders...
my name is ERIK SAUNDERS... i have a website... its called
eriksaunders.com....

drugs suck, duh... i laugh at all those guys trying to break through over
there
banging their heads against the wall... then i have to hear from some cat 3s
about how the US pros arent good and we cant compete with the europeans... one
of these days people will start to get it- the more they fry dudes like doper
dave millar...he isnt a bad person, or a cheater in my eyes... he just looks
like an idiot after all that has been said and all that has happened... i feel
sorry for him a bit... and a bit not... and then after that i dont too much
care...

the truth is the truth... ok... but i dont like the french justice system
where
they can string you up like they do over some stupid BS like doping... there
is
an arrogance about the way they are doing this all that bothers me... believe
me, there are a lot of other things that they could be doing with their time
and over reaching power than going after poor millar for taking epo.. they are
definetly having fun with this... i am glad i dont live in france where the
cops can pull you over or take you in for no reason at all pretty much...

there should be testing and sanctions and i dont think that they should do
less
to keep things honest... i just object to the french modus operandi...

anyway- doping is such a big problem... bike racing is stupid anyway- lets not
get carried away about the relative importance of cycling in the grand
scheme... its just a big self- gratifying ego-fest... no dopers are taking
away
your chance to get to heaven... millar took epo... do you loose sleep at
night?... does it keep you kids from a quality education?... does it stop you
family from eating?... bike racing will still exist... the 30 plusers will
still want to race in the industrial parks of southern california... dont
worry... then i can race with them since pro cycling will die and i wont have
a
team anymore... i will have just as much fun...

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... or you can do a
big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the

alpha

Quoted message said:

and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a

long

Quoted message said:

line of illegal activity...

You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect to
legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is fundamentally
right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money, public adulation,
social status, something basic remains understood : people who do wrong
things and have no right to our applause or admiration for these fraudulent
achievements.

But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a conscience.
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Paris FR

Smmb said:

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de : news:20040625130620.23951.00000710@mb-
m28.aol.comnews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... or you can do a big overblown public display making the guys who
are using look like the

alpha

Quoted message said:

and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail
end of a

long

Quoted message said:

line of illegal activity...

You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect
to legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is
fundamentally right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money,
public adulation, social status, something basic remains understood :
people who do wrong things and have no right to our applause or
admiration for these fraudulent achievements.
But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a
conscience.
--
Bonne route,
Sandy Paris FR

I'm going to have to side with Erik on this - sport is, after all,
SPORT. It's a game. It's supposed to be recreation, entertainment. If
the euro-pros want their version of the sport to be akin to professional
wrestling, all smoke, mirrors and bashing each other with folding
chairs, then so be it. I support the idea of anti-doping to keep
athletes healthy and safe from directors forcing them to inject unknown
substances into their bodies. I think it is the responsibility of the
teams and the UCI to create an atmosphere where doping is discouraged. I
think cheaters should be kicked out of the sport, as is happening more
an dmore lately. However, as it is a GAME, a SPORT, and ENTERTAINMENT, I
think doping should remain policed by the organizations created to
police the sport, not by the people who are supposed to be going after
murderers. If anyone is to be criminally prosecuted, it should be the
doctors, pharmacists and even the pharmaceutical companies that allow
the drugs to get into riders' hands. It's akin to the Oxycontin problem.
Don't the makers of EPO realize that their product is disappearing way
faster in Europe than the clinical need could ever account for?

I think that the current frenzy over doping in sport is getting a bit
ridiculous. That the Balco deal went all the way to the US Congress
amazes me. I realize that Olympic athletes represent one's country, and
to have a doping scandal would reflect negatively on the country, but
it's not like it is a matter of national security. It's just another
topic that excites the public and allows people who would be totally
anonymous for their entire lives to get their 15 minutes of fame by
indicting some poor athlete for (alleged) doping. And don't even get me
started on USADA banning athletes for life just for a doping allegation
in leiu of a positive test or admission of guilt.

Perspective -- if Lance admits to doping, do you want to see the guy rot
in some French prison?

--

SMMB said:

"erik saunders" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... or you can do a
big overblown public display making the guys who are using look like the

alpha

Quoted message said:

and omega of a crime, when in reality they are at the skinny tail end of a

long

Quoted message said:

line of illegal activity...

You have really missed the point. The point is not drugs. The point is
cheating. The point is doing bad things. Not on a technical level, since
as a lawyer, I have no illusions about factual misbehavior with respect to
legislated rules. No, it's the other kind of behavior that is fundamentally
right or wrong. When you take away all the prizes, money, public adulation,
social status, something basic remains understood : people who do wrong
things and have no right to our applause or admiration for these fraudulent
achievements.

But I see, in your relativistic analysis, the beginnings of a conscience.

ok jabby fighter...

i get your point- i understand where you are coming from... but for me
right and wrong dont have much to do with this situation... that is to
say that it is not my point of view on this... and even so, no one has
the right to anyone's applause or adulation... it is the right of each
individual to decide to whom he will give it... its egotistical to
assume that someone would endanger his health and reputation to have you
clap for him!... its not about that.. now, if people want to give it up
for guys who take epo in bike races then thats ok by me... it is each
fan's decision to make...

its not a moral question for me... i dont care about right or wrong per
se... right and wrong is between you and your god... i have nothing to
do with that... i dont care about doping in sports as much as some
people do (obviously)... as a pro cyclist it doesnt bother me at all
that some riders take drugs and i have to race against them... but i
have to say that i have a problem with people who want to act any kind
of way they want and it puts me in danger... thats what the courts and
cops and laws are for- to protect me so that i can enjoy my life... if i
live in a crack neihborhood and i have to have stray bullets fly by my
house because there is a drug fight, then i dont care about morality, i
care about my safety and the safety of my family... i care about theft
because i dont want to get my [censored] took.. i care about murder becasue i
dont want to live in a world where its ok to kill people...

i care about impact on society... the question is this- will the press
and the french judicial/prosecutorial system follow this to the source
or will they make a show out of it to make people feel good about the
progress being made on the doping front?... so that some french guy can
read in the morning about how effective the justice system is and say to
himself "hmm... the system works, good"... we all know that doping in
sports is a scandal for the journalists almost exclusively... some of us
then get to speak out in moral indignation but even that seems "louche"
to me...

what is the real impact on society in all this?... on the millar end of
things- very little... when does this little ripple turn into a giant
wave that will overwhelm me or my family?... it doesnt, so it seems to
me that all this time spent by the french on sports dopers isnt doing a
single thing to make life easier for the french public... there arent
murderous epo gangs making life unsafe for law abiding citizens and
their children in the streets of biaritz... so why all the damned
fuss?... for show, thats what for... i call BS on it.. the real story is
where these drugs came from and wether or not there is a link to drug
trafficking that actually has an impact on the safety of teh kids in
biaritz who want to play outside... (maybe they dont have ghettos there-
i dont know, ive never been)... thats what the criminal courts and
police are there for- public safety... not to enforce morality through
law...

this is a link to an interview i did for daily peloton.. you will better
understand my philosophy after you read it...

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=5865

[email hidden] (Ronde Champ) wrote in message It is Friday

Quoted message said:

after all. Shoot up day for a jobber pro like me. I have work to do
this weekend.

Thanks,
Ronde Champ

Moron -

Even though it is probably hard for you, bike racing ain't work.

-RJ

Ronde,

You say that you are a pro. And you've made quite a statement (aside
from all the colorful jabs you make throughout the year).

So now it is your turn. Not only to reveal your identity, but to go
out and take your dope test and release the results to all of us.

Be sure also to detail EVERYTHING (aside from regular food) that you
pump into your body. Supplements. Injectables. Other concoctions.
All of it.

If you are truly clean, then "show us your shorts" so to speak.

Much deleted (phew)

Quoted message said:

Thanks,
Ronde Champ

Now if the LA Sheiff's had only taken CYCLING as seriously as they
take drug enforcement and auto theft ;-) A bit ironic, eh? Them
being a former sponsor of a domestic pro team and all.

[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

after some consideration i have decided that if the LA sheriffs took doping
seriously as a crime worth investigating as rigorously as auto theft then i
would take drugs... because then i could get chased and hit 11 times with a
flashlight while lying prone- surrendering... then i could sue for millions and
not care about having gotten a suspension and having been fired from my team...

i guess in some ways it might better to live in france where the cops dont beat
you up... unless you are black or arab and live in the ghetto... [censored]... never
mind

Kaiser said:

So now it is your turn...to reveal your identity...

He's Batman.🙄

--

pedalchick said:

I'm going to have to side with Erik on this - sport is, after all,
SPORT. It's a game. It's supposed to be recreation, entertainment. If
the euro-pros want their version of the sport to be akin to professional
wrestling, all smoke, mirrors and bashing each other with folding
chairs, then so be it. I support the idea of anti-doping to keep
athletes healthy and safe from directors forcing them to inject unknown
substances into their bodies. I think it is the responsibility of the
teams and the UCI to create an atmosphere where doping is discouraged. I
think cheaters should be kicked out of the sport, as is happening more
an dmore lately. However, as it is a GAME, a SPORT, and ENTERTAINMENT, I
think doping should remain policed by the organizations created to
police the sport, not by the people who are supposed to be going after
murderers.

But what about the young pros Duch pros dropping dead in the early
1990s. And what about the good amateur cyclists who treat it as a
game (like you) that get beat on by doped pros. That's not right.
And what about the supposed frequent use of illegal drugs by high
school and college athletes in the US in a variety of sports (and, I
imagine, similar stuff at the youth and amateur levels in Europe.

I'm not saying a lot of public resources and publicity should be spent
on high profile criminal action against athletes, but it's not right
to accept hypocrisy and lying in any aspect of society.

I would hope the focus of any political/criminal action is on the
whole structure that facilititates doping, and that one upshot is more
recognition in society in general that such widespread cheating is not
right in sport, as it is not right in any aspect of life.

JT

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

But what about the young pros Duch pros dropping dead in the early
1990s. And what about the good amateur cyclists who treat it as a
game (like you) that get beat on by doped pros. That's not right.
And what about the supposed frequent use of illegal drugs by high
school and college athletes in the US in a variety of sports (and, I
imagine, similar stuff at the youth and amateur levels in Europe.

Quoted message said:

I'm not saying a lot of public resources and publicity should be spent
on high profile criminal action against athletes, but it's not right
to accept hypocrisy and lying in any aspect of society.

Quoted message said:

I would hope the focus of any political/criminal action is on the
whole structure that facilititates doping, and that one upshot is more
recognition in society in general that such widespread cheating is not
right in sport, as it is not right in any aspect of life.

I hope the focus is on the structure too, but that doesn't make
the headlines the way that rounding up famous athletes does.
How are these guys getting their EPO? There have been prosecutions
of suppliers and sleazy pharmacists in France and Belgium IIRC,
but in the Cofidis investigation much more emphasis has been
put on the riders than on wherever the drugs came from. IMO
supplying drugs illegally is a worse crime than buying them, and
doctors who are involved are the worst of all.
To some extent the same thing happens in the USA with respect
to recreational drugs - most of the busted are users and small fry.

The BALCO investigation is gratifyingly focusing on suppliers and
coaches, but even that case probably gets the resources it does
because of the high-profile client list.

Anyway, I wonder if most of France was even paying attention yet;
they'll start the day after tomorrow, after the Euro 2004
post-mortem. On second thought, that may take more than one day.

"pedalchick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

If anyone is to be criminally prosecuted, it should be the
doctors, pharmacists and even the pharmaceutical companies that allow
the drugs to get into riders' hands. It's akin to the Oxycontin problem.
Don't the makers of EPO realize that their product is disappearing way
faster in Europe than the clinical need could ever account for?

How do you know? What percentage of EPO is not being used for clinical need?

Let's just go hypothetically crazy and say that there are 10,000 European
athletes in aerobic sports using EPO (and I'm not claiming that there
actually are). Using a population of 300 million for Western Europe (wild
guess, roughly the population of the USA), that is equivalent to 1 in 30,000
people are using EPO for performance. I have no idea whatsoever what the
clinical applications are for EPO other than for symptoms of chemotherapy,
but I'm sure there must be more.

Also the athlete's use is not for acute anemia, it's to 'top off their
tank', so their usage should be a fraction of the legitimate users' needs.

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that there is a significant dent in the usage
of EPO for clinical usage by improper usage, and I don't consider much if
any of the culpability for criminal prosecution to lay with the
manufacturers