measuring brake calilper drop

"david kenning" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I want to measure up for a new set of brake calipers, but
what points do I measure between? I'm guessing centre of
caliper bolt to top edge of rim -

am

Quoted message said:

I barking up the right tree?

What I'm really after, I guess, is a recommendation for
dual-pivot

calipers

Quoted message said:

with a long reach/mudguard clearance for my touring bike
(a Raleigh

Royal -

Quoted message said:

needs 55mm or thereabouts). I don't have anywhere to fit
cantis/vees and don't want to go down that route anyway.
The current brakes are old

Raleigh

Quoted message said:

Weinmann centre-pulls, which I'm happy with but the
rear caliper is badly bent, which I only noticed when
I replaced the blocks recently.... OK, I'm actually
just looking for an excuse to upgrade. I'm gonna get
meself some

of

Quoted message said:

those nice modern-looking aero levers too.

d.

Measure from the centre of the fixing bolt to the centre
of the bolts holding the brake blocks in place (or the
centre of the semi circular end of the slots, this will
give you a range)

I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking about
upgrading them for ages but have 700C wheels so the drop is
close to 60mm. I'd like some dual pivot ones and Alhongra do
some reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa Cycles) though I
think my rear rack, again not OE, would foul a dual pivot
caliper there.

I fitted some Exage Aero levers that I got 2nd hand, work
well enough with the Weinmans though I'd like to try to get
a stiffer hanger for the front.

MSeries <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking
: about upgrading them for ages but have 700C wheels so the
: drop is close to 60mm. I'd like some dual pivot ones and
: Alhongra do some reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa
: Cycles) though I think my rear rack, again not OE, would
: foul a dual pivot caliper there.

My fixie is an old Royal frame, now with 700C wheels and I
use alhonga rear brakes. Works fine with the rack for me.
Unless you have a very odd rack I reckon it'd be fine.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a
philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Arthur Clune said:

MSeries said:

I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking
about upgrading them for ages but have 700C wheels so the
drop is close to 60mm. I'd like some dual pivot ones and
Alhongra do some reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa
Cycles) though I think my rear rack, again not OE, would
foul a dual pivot caliper there.

My fixie is an old Royal frame, now with 700C wheels and I
use alhonga rear brakes. Works fine with the rack for me.
Unless you have a very odd rack I reckon it'd be fine.

Arthur

My rack is an old, 1989, four point fixing Blackburn, I use
P-clips to attach it to the seat stays. Does the cable pass
to the outside of the rack or in between the two horizontal
fixing struts. I have not been able to examine Alhonga
brakes close up to be able to determine if they will
actually fit or not. I should ride up to Spa Cycles and get
the chap there to let me offer them up, he seems a prety
helpful bloke.

MSeries said:

Measure from the centre of the fixing bolt to the centre
of the bolts holding the brake blocks in place (or the
centre of the semi circular end

of

Quoted message said:

the slots, this will give you a range)

Magic. Thanks for that.

Quoted message said:

I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking
about upgrading

them

Quoted message said:

for ages but have 700C wheels so the drop is close
to 60mm.

What's the actual size difference between a 27" wheel and a
700C? I've been led to believe that it's negligible but I
presume from this comment that it's enough to make a
difference to what size calipers you need. I've also got on
my list of planned upgrades changing the rear wheel from a
27" with threaded freehub to a 700C with cassette hub, and
I assumed I'd be able to do this without having to worry
about whether the brakes woud still fit. (Though if I'm
changing the calipers anyway, then it obviously wouldn't be
an issue.)

Quoted message said:

I'd like some dual pivot ones and Alhongra do some
reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa Cycles) though I think
my rear rack, again not OE, would foul a dual pivot
caliper there.

Again, thanks. What rack do you have? I was looking at
getting a Tortec Expedition rack, which wouldn't have any
clearance problems with centre-pull brakes but I'm not at
all sure how much clearance you need for side-pulls - I
guess it partly depends on the frame size.

Quoted message said:

I fitted some Exage Aero levers that I got 2nd hand, work
well enough with the Weinmans though I'd like to try to
get a stiffer hanger for the front.

By "hanger", do you mean the bit that attaches to the
handlebar post that the cable runs through? I was wondering
if that casues any compatibility issues with aero levers -
ie, is there any problem with the cable having to bend too
sharply to fit through it? I think this question was
answered just the other day when I saw a chap on the train
with his Royal, which was fitted with aeros and the
original centre-pulls - although, judging by the state of
his chain, I'm not sure he was someone whose opinion I
would really trust.

d.

MSeries <[email hidden]> wrote:

: My rack is an old, 1989, four point fixing Blackburn, I
: use P-clips to attach it to the seat stays. Does the cable
: pass to the outside of the rack

Outside. My rack is p-clipped on as well. You can see the
bike + brakes when you pick up the book if you want.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a
philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

david kenning said:

What I'm really after, I guess, is a recommendation for
dual-pivot calipers with a long reach/mudguard clearance
for my touring bike (a Raleigh Royal - needs 55mm or
thereabouts). I don't have anywhere to fit cantis/vees and
don't want to go down that route anyway. The current
brakes are old Raleigh Weinmann centre-pulls, which I'm
happy with but the rear caliper is badly bent, which I
only noticed when I replaced the blocks recently.... OK,
I'm actually just looking for an excuse to upgrade. I'm
gonna get meself some of those nice modern-looking aero
levers too.

Hello, I've just come back from a short ride on my 1980s
Raleigh Royal. I recently fitted a pair of Alhonga deep-drop
dual-pivot calipers - which have plenty of reach for 700c
wheels on this bike (in fact far more than enough for the
front*)and enough mudguard clearance. They have a lighter
action than centre-pulls.

However, they don't seem to quite stay centred. I'm not sure
why yet. Mounting nuts are very; maybe different washers
would help? And power of the rear brake leaves something to
be desired. So I can't exactly recommened them unreservedly.
I suggest looking around for other dual-pivot brakes for the
front (might be a suitable old/new Shimano model available)
and carry on with the rear Weinmann for the time being.

* front requires much less drop than rear on my Royal

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

However, they don't seem to quite stay centred. I'm not
sure why yet. Mounting nuts are very; maybe different
washers would help? And power of the rear brake leaves
something to be desired. So I can't exactly recommened
them unreservedly. I suggest looking around for other dual-
pivot brakes for the front (might be a suitable old/new
Shimano model available) and carry on with the rear
Weinmann for the time being.

* front requires much less drop than rear on my Royal

~PB

Cheers for this Pete, I was thinking I'd ask you about these
brakes sometime soon.

david kenning said:

MSeries said:

Measure from the centre of the fixing bolt to the centre
of the bolts holding the brake blocks in place (or the
centre of the semi circular end of the slots, this will
give you a range)

Magic. Thanks for that.

Quoted message said:

I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking
about upgrading them for ages but have 700C wheels so the
drop is close to 60mm.

What's the actual size difference between a 27" wheel and
a 700C? I've been led to believe that it's negligible but
I presume from this comment that it's enough to make a
difference to what size calipers you need. I've also got
on my list of planned upgrades changing the rear wheel
from a 27" with threaded freehub to a 700C with cassette
hub, and I assumed I'd be able to do this without having
to worry about whether the brakes woud still fit. (Though
if I'm changing the calipers anyway, then it obviously
wouldn't be an issue.)

Not sure on the exact difference in dimension, I am sure
someone else will tell us soon. I switched wheels a long
time ago, no real problems the spacing at the rear dropouts
was different so I had to make the frame wider. Be careful
how you do this, the frame needs to stay true i.e. the rear
wheel needs to be exactly behind the front, if not you may
suffer some shimmy when riding - I did. I have Shimano Deore
(1990) six speed hubs on ATM

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like some dual pivot ones and Alhongra do some
reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa Cycles) though I think
my rear rack, again not OE, would foul a dual pivot
caliper there.

Again, thanks. What rack do you have? I was looking at
getting a Tortec Expedition rack, which wouldn't have any
clearance problems with centre-pull brakes but I'm not at
all sure how much clearance you need for side-pulls - I
guess it partly depends on the frame size.

I have an old Blackburn 4 point fixing rack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I fitted some Exage Aero levers that I got 2nd hand, work
well enough with the Weinmans though I'd like to try to
get a stiffer hanger for the front.

By "hanger", do you mean the bit that attaches to the
handlebar post that the cable runs through? I was
wondering if that casues any compatibility issues with
aero levers - ie, is there any problem with the cable
having to bend too sharply to fit through it? I think this
question was answered just the other day when I saw a chap
on the train with his Royal, which was fitted with aeros
and the original centre-pulls - although, judging by the
state of his chain, I'm not sure he was someone whose
opinion I would really trust.

yes the hanger is the piece attached to the headset where
the cable outer stops and the inner comes out. The curve of
the cable is not too tight, I'd prefer if it was a larger
radius but it works well. The hanger flexes when I apply the
brakes and its this flex I'd like to eliminate.

The story of my bike is here
mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikebio.htmlOpen ↗ and you can
see a few old pictures here
mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikerideOpen ↗ Why not visit
my homepage too while you are there
mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikerideOpen ↗

Petes piece about the effectiveness of his Alhongas is
interesting.

Quoted message said:

d.

david kenning said:

MSeries said:

Measure from the centre of the fixing bolt to the centre
of the bolts holding the brake blocks in place (or the
centre of the semi circular end of the slots, this will
give you a range)

Magic. Thanks for that.

Quoted message said:

I have a Royal with the original brakes, been thinking
about upgrading them for ages but have 700C wheels so the
drop is close to 60mm.

What's the actual size difference between a 27" wheel
and a 700C?

8mm in diameter, so blocks need lowering by 4mm.

Quoted message said:

I've been led to believe that it's negligible but I
presume from this comment that it's enough to make a
difference to what size calipers you need.

Depends how much room is left within the slots. Filing can
help if blocks are almost but not quite low enough.

Quoted message said:

I've also got on my list of planned upgrades changing the
rear wheel from a 27" with threaded freehub to a 700C with
cassette hub, and I assumed I'd be able to do this without
having to worry about whether the brakes woud still fit.

I just managed to use a 700c wheel with the original
brakes. The rear only just (after filing the slots as much
as I dared).

Quoted message said:

(Though if I'm changing the calipers anyway, then it
obviously wouldn't be an issue.)

Can still be an issue because there aren't many maga-deep
drop brakes to choose from out there - which you might
possibly need for the rear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like some dual pivot ones and Alhongra do some
reasonably priced ones (£21 in Spa Cycles) though I think
my rear rack, again not OE, would foul a dual pivot
caliper there.

An Alhonga doesn't foul my rear rack (old obscure one). You
could get a new rack if needs be or even mount the brake on
the other side of the bridge somehow (not sure I'd ever want
to do that but that is possible).

/snip

Quoted message said:

By "hanger", do you mean the bit that attaches to the
handlebar post that the cable runs through?

That's right.

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if that casues any compatibility issues
with aero levers - ie, is there any problem with the cable
having to bend too sharply to fit through it?

There would be so simply don't use the hangers with modern
brakes and levers. Cable goes directly from lever to caliper
- front & rear.

~PB

MSeries said:

Pete Biggs said:

However, they don't seem to quite stay centred. I'm not
sure why yet. Mounting nuts are very tight; maybe
different washers would help?

And

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

power of the rear brake leaves something to be desired.
So I can't exactly recommened them unreservedly. I
suggest looking around for other dual-pivot brakes for
the front (might be a suitable old/new Shimano model
available) and carry on with the rear Weinmann for the
time being.

* front requires much less drop than rear on my Royal

Cheers for this Pete, I was thinking I'd ask you about
these brakes sometime soon.

You're welcome.

I'm reasonably happy with the front brake actually (would be
very happy if I wasn't so used to the astonishing braking on
my road bike!), and I can live with minimal rear stopping
power (after all the front is the business brake) but this
going-off-centre-all-by-itself thing is annoying. Front does
it too but to a much lesser extent. Hopefully I'll
eventaully get to the bottom of it. If not, I might bung the
rear Wienmann back on, despite the extra spring force which
feels horrible compared to modern brakes.

~PB

I said:

* front requires much less drop than rear on my Royal

So much so that I have to have front blocks right at the top
of the Alhonga deep-drop slots. So the *minimum* reach is
only just adequate, for 700c wheel! Won't be suitable for
27" rim with these forks.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

I'm reasonably happy with the front brake actually (would
be very happy if I wasn't so used to the astonishing
braking on my road bike!), and I can live with minimal
rear stopping power (after all the front is the business
brake) but this going-off-centre-all-by-itself thing is
annoying. Front does it too but to a much lesser extent.
Hopefully I'll eventaully get to the bottom of it. If
not, I might bung the rear Wienmann back on, despite the
extra spring force which feels horrible compared to
modern brakes.

I know what you mean. I was happy with the Weinmans until I
got my latest bike in 1999 with Ultegra dual pivot jobbies.
I fitted 105 DP ones to my #2 road iron last summer and now
that the Royal is in use again I feel the difference ! I
have been using it two or three times a week now for the
last 4 months and have got used to the poorer brakes, I use
the front mostly, but I am sure when I am riding 2 or three
of my bikes every week I'll be wanting something better.
Perhaps I'll stick with the Weinmans, they were good enough
for me before.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:17:30 -0000, in
<[email hidden]>, "Pete Biggs"

Quoted message said:

brake) but this going-off-centre-all-by-itself thing is
annoying. Front

Is the outer cable now too long? i.e. is it pushing your
caliper off-centre?

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which is sent to me (whether intended or not) may, if I so
desire, form a legal and binding contract.

Richard Bates said:

Quoted message said:

this going-off-centre-all-by-itself thing is annoying.

Quoted message said:

Is the outer cable now too long? i.e. is it pushing your
caliper off-centre?

Ingenious thought! It is a bit long,* but it's going off-
centre the other way :-(

* Obscure reason: I am using a customised rear hanger
arrangement off the seat bolt (despite what I advised in a
previous reply) just so I can have an extra cable
adjuster. Maybe a bit of a dodgy idea anyway.

Thanks.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

* front requires much less drop than rear on my Royal

So much so that I have to have front blocks right at the
top of the Alhonga deep-drop slots. So the *minimum* reach
is only just adequate, for 700c wheel! Won't be suitable
for 27" rim with these forks.

I hadn't really noticed it before but you're absolutely
right - the difference is pretty significant.

d.

MSeries said:

The story of my bike is here

mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikebio.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

and you can see a few old pictures here
mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikerideOpen ↗ Why not visit
my homepage too while you are there
mseries.freeserve.co.ukbikerideOpen ↗

Lovely! I think my Royal must be about the same age as
yours. I bought it in 1988, I think, and it was second
hand then - the previous owner had taken great care of it
- it even came with the label signed by the chap that
built the bike!

Quoted message said:

Petes piece about the effectiveness of his Alhongas is
interesting.

Sounds like the alhongas would be a good bet from what
everyone has said.

d.

Pete Biggs <[email hidden]> wrote ...

Quoted message said:

However, the Alhongas don't seem to quite stay centred.
I'm not sure why

yet.

Quoted message said:

Mounting nuts are very; maybe different washers would
help? And power of the rear brake leaves something to be
desired. So I can't exactly recommened them unreservedly.
I suggest looking around for other dual-pivot brakes for
the front (might be a suitable old/new Shimano model
available) and carry on with the rear Weinmann for the
time being.

Last time I was in Longstaff's, they had a model of dual
pivot that was intermediate in max drop between the Alhongas
and the 57mm Shimanos. Looked better quality than the
Alhongas, with a Q/R, but I can't remember the brand, so
you'd have to ring and ask.