meaning of inevitable?

I hate that kind of lameness, but don't see the link with newishness.

In the Tour teams like Rabobank and Caldirola were also working for the inevitable bunch sprint,
while they only had very slim winning chances. In some cases their contribution seemed crucial for
obtaining the 'inevitable'.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

I know I shouldn't rag on newish riders, but this sort of thing pisses me off:

(from dailypeloton.comdisplayarticle.aspOpen ↗) "This was in large part due to the
work of Terry Mathison and Brad Harper. It had been agreed the night before that James Klotz,
Terry and Brad would ride one lap each on guard making sure nothing got away while Big Romeo and
Manny Samaniego sat in the bunch preparing for the inevitable field gallop at 200 meters."

If the field sprint is inevitable, why do these guys need two people to hold the field together?
If your team has a really good sprinter, yeah, keeping things together makes sense. Otherwise
you're just contributing to the lameness of so much racing.

I suppose it is a way of saying that good/effective work by the team's "break police" would make a
field sprint "inevitable." Seems more like a way (and perhaps an imperfect way) of phrasing the
words than anything.

Their guy did ended up losing by only a half-wheel. "Big Romeo would drive to the line with elbows
flying in a dual for first but would come up 8 inches short and would take home second place."

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know I shouldn't rag on newish riders, but this sort of thing pisses me off:

(from dailypeloton.comdisplayarticle.aspOpen ↗) "This was in large part due to the
work of Terry Mathison and Brad Harper. It had been agreed the night before that James Klotz,
Terry and Brad would ride one lap each on guard making sure nothing got away while Big Romeo and
Manny Samaniego sat in the bunch preparing for the inevitable field gallop at 200 meters."

If the field sprint is inevitable, why do these guys need two people to hold the field together?
If your team has a really good sprinter, yeah, keeping things together makes sense. Otherwise
you're just contributing to the lameness of so much racing.

I agree. One thing the [censored] riders don't realize is that unless you're the best sprinter, or have
the best sprinter on your team, ride in such a way that facilitates the breaking up of the race, ie.
don't do any work unless you're attacking or off the front.

In Belgium they realize this. In kermesses, if one sits in, after awhile there's no one to
ride with.

In North American lower category crits, sit in and you've got 100 people to ride with, all day long.

Why the difference? I don't get it. Are we that bad at educating our novice riders?

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Their guy did ended up losing by only a half-wheel. "Big Romeo

would drive to

Quoted message said:

the line with elbows flying in a dual for first but would come up 8

inches short

Quoted message said:

and would take home second place."

And another one of their guys broke a bone in a crash that would have been way less likely if the
field had been strung out -- like if their guys hadn't spent energy on the inevitable but instead
led it out.

JT

--
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit jt10000.comjt10000.comOpen ↗
*******************************************

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Their guy did ended up losing by only a half-wheel. "Big Romeo

would drive to

Quoted message said:

the line with elbows flying in a dual for first but would come up 8

inches short

Quoted message said:

and would take home second place."

And another one of their guys broke a bone in a crash that would have been way less likely if the
field had been strung out -- like if their guys hadn't spent energy on the inevitable but instead
led it out.

Quite fair enough. But it's still a "field sprint," even if they do "train" it.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I agree. One thing the [censored] riders don't realize is that unless you're the best sprinter, or have
the best sprinter on your team, ride in such a way that facilitates the breaking up of the race,
ie. don't do any work unless you're attacking or off the front.

In Belgium they realize this. In kermesses, if one sits in, after awhile there's no one to
ride with.

In North American lower category crits, sit in and you've got 100 people to ride with, all
day long.

Why the difference? I don't get it. Are we that bad at educating our novice riders?

The difference is fitness. Lower category riders don't have the fitness to make attacks get caught
and not get dropped or bridge to a break and keep racing. When you don't have a lot of fitness (or
experience) your "tactics" are basically determined by the immediate threat of getting left behind,
so lower cat riders respond to every attack and panic if there's a gap in front of them.

-Amit

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree. One thing the [censored] riders don't realize is that unless you're

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

best sprinter, or have the best sprinter on your team, ride in such a

way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that facilitates the breaking up of the race, ie. don't do any work

unless

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you're attacking or off the front.

In Belgium they realize this. In kermesses, if one sits in, after awhile there's no one to
ride with.

In North American lower category crits, sit in and you've got 100 people

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ride with, all day long.

Why the difference? I don't get it. Are we that bad at educating our

novice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

riders?

The difference is fitness. Lower category riders don't have the fitness to make attacks get caught
and not get dropped or bridge to a break and keep racing. When you don't have a lot of fitness (or
experience) your "tactics" are basically determined by the immediate threat of getting left
behind, so lower cat riders respond to every attack and panic if there's a gap in front of them.

Umm, that may be true for some of them, but what about the ones who chase every single attack?

"Tom Arsenault" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Umm, that may be true for some of them, but what about the ones who

chase

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

every single attack?

That's simple. For the most part in lower tiered category races, everyone, and I do mean everyone,
that is left at the end of the race truly and honestly believe that they can win it. This is not,
as we know, the case. I've tried starting breaks before in my (what will probably be career) cat.
3 races, and I'll get 6-8 people to get a gap with me, but as soon as I pull over, give them the
elbow wiggle, I turn around and see that they were just concerned that I would get away solo, and
then, hence, they wouldn't win. And of course from there, the field comes piling in. Just repeat
the process over and over again until the race is over. And even if someone does get away, the
rest of the field is now racing for 2nd, or 3rd, or however many people are up the road. They're
happy to "field sprint" for whatever places are left, and don't want to ride to win. Just my take
on things from the "inside" of the cat. 3 world of things. At least in the Southeast, and well,
everyone else I've race as a matter of fact.

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

How can we do such a [censored] job of educating the lower category riders? There's something amiss in the
'culture' in the lower categories.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

How can we do such a [censored] job of educating the lower category riders? There's something amiss in
the 'culture' in the lower categories.

Learn to Race courses (do they have those in the US) teach you how to ride a bike, but they
don't teach tactics. There should be a classroom component that teaches and enforces various
tactical approaches to racing and if the riders train together regularly such tactics should be
practised often.

[email hidden] (Tom Arsenault) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

That's simple. For the most part in lower tiered category races, everyone, and I do mean everyone,
that is left at the end of the race truly and honestly believe that they can win it. This is not,
as we know, the case. I've tried starting breaks before in my (what will probably be career) cat.
3 races, and I'll get 6-8 people to get a gap with me, but as soon as I pull over, give them the
elbow wiggle, I turn around and see that they were just concerned that I would get away solo, and
then, hence, they wouldn't win. And of course from there, the field comes piling in.

Or you get chased down by your own teammates.

Just repeat the

Quoted message said:

process over and over again until the race is over. And even if someone does get away, the rest of
the field is now racing for 2nd, or 3rd, or however many people are up the road. They're happy to
"field sprint" for whatever places are left, and don't want to ride to win. Just my take on things
from the "inside" of the cat. 3 world of things. At least in the Southeast, and well, everyone
else I've race as a matter of fact.

Well, at least you don't have to do local women's races... The "let's go 16 mph until someone tries
to break away. Then we'll chase them down, sit on them until they go 16mph again. At least a cat3
race is fast and you get a decent workout.

I think everyone wants to win from a field sprint because they've watched Cipo do it, and he looks
so darn cool winning that way. Personally, I like the solo breakaway. It shows panache - like you
have single-handedly crushed the entire field. Of course, you actually have to be smart and strong
to pull that one off, which pretty much rules out 99.9% of cat 3's.

"PedalChick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Well, at least you don't have to do local women's races... The "let's go 16 mph until someone
tries to break away. Then we'll chase them down, sit on them until they go 16mph again. At least a
cat3 race is fast and you get a decent workout.

I think that has to do with the size of the field. In a tiny field, if you attack and get caught
you're almost definitely going to get dropped. This is much less certain in a larger field.

Also a larger field will naturally go faster as different riders hit the front and try moves. We've
had tiny women's races where I live that have crawled. And a few big fields which have been much
more animated.

JT

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That's simple. For the most part in lower tiered category races, everyone, and I do mean everyone,
that is left at the end of the race truly and honestly believe that they can win it.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Tom

Just out of curiosity, what is the alternative to this scenario? In the pro races, most of the
riders are paid to take themselves out of contention, and to perform other roles which make the
tactics what they are. In lower category races, why would anyone voluntarily ride for another rider?
If some Cat.3,4,5 rider has done his/her training, paid his/her entry fee, risked his/her life and
limb, of course they are going to try to win, whether they are capable of it or not, and there's no
reason to expect that this will ever change unless they are hired to be someone's domestique. All of
you who call this "lame": what's your great idea for stopping negative riding?

Mort

[email hidden] (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I think that has to do with the size of the field. In a tiny field, if you attack and get caught
you're almost definitely going to get dropped. This is much less certain in a larger field.

Now *this* is the heart of the matter. It's exactly this (somewhat mistaken) belief that makes
women's racing incredibly dull at a local level. Most women aren't confident in their ability to
attack and recover, so they will only expend their energy to make sure someone else doesn't get
away, but are afraid to lay it on the line themselves. It just pisses me off to no end, and I find
that the only way to win is to sit in, be incredibly bored and then sprint and get lucky (since I'm
not a great sprinter). It really pisses me off when some fat-ass who trains 3 hours a week but has a
bunch of fast-twitch beats me on these occasions... Hey, this sounds just like what happens in the
men's race, eh? However, you lucky guys usually don't have this one: I've seen races where there is
one nationally ranked woman in the field, and she has no teammates. There is a team of 5 or 6
category 2 women and they all just wait for this stronger rider to attack and get away solo, and
then they start racing for 2nd place.

Of course, at national races the racing is more "normal", although in these cases, there are about
15 people actually racing, and 80% of the field is sitting in, happy just to not get dropped. It's
just silly.

"MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That's simple. For the most part in lower tiered category races, everyone, and I do mean
everyone, that is left at the end of the race truly and honestly believe that they can win it.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Tom

Just out of curiosity, what is the alternative to this scenario? In the pro races, most of the
riders are paid to take themselves out of contention, and to perform other roles which make the
tactics what they are. In lower category races, why would anyone voluntarily ride for another
rider? If some Cat.3,4,5 rider has done his/her training, paid his/her entry fee, risked his/her
life and limb, of course they are going to try to win, whether they are capable of it or not, and
there's no reason to expect that this will ever change unless they are hired to be someone's
domestique. All of you who call this "lame": what's your great idea for stopping negative riding?

There's no short solution. It's a cultural thing (cycling culture). Changing attitudes is easier
said than done.

In Belgium, sitting in is not an option. Before long everyone will have attacked you and you'll be
riding alone. In the lower categories on this side of the pond, you can just get towed around by the
dumbasses chasing every single attack.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

How can we do such a [censored] job of educating the lower category riders? There's something amiss in
the 'culture' in the lower categories.

I promise that once I have the fitness to not get dropped after 30 minutes in the Cat 4/5 race I'll
consistently attack off the front. :-)

--

Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

"MortDubois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what is the alternative to this scenario? In the pro races, most of the
riders are paid to take themselves out of contention, and to perform other roles which make the
tactics what they are. In lower category races, why would anyone voluntarily ride for another
rider? If some Cat.3,4,5 rider has done his/her training, paid his/her entry fee, risked his/her
life and limb, of course they are going to try to win, whether they are capable of it or not, and
there's no reason to expect that this will ever change unless they are hired to be someone's
domestique.

I don't know. When I was racing Cat 3 my team rode tactically, riders made sacrifices for each
other, and each race had designated leaders. It was a lot more fun that way and at the end of the
year I think we were more successful for it. Due to real life obligations, not everyone could peak
at the same time, so the riders who were peaking got the soft ride while those who were undertrained
worked their asses off to make sure the peaking teammates were in the right place at the right time.
It was always understood that what goes around comes around and, more often then not, it
did. We even split prize money if it was more than a couple of bucks. It can easily work if you have
a team of guys that get along and are all on the same page, and the net result is more upgrades
to Cat 2. Towards the end of the season if someone needed only two more points, the others
worked as hard as they could to make sure he got them.

That kind of teamwork got noticed by others, and we had lots of people asking how to join. I think
that all it takes is one team to get their act together and start playing the part of a real team,
and other teams will notice, and start to play the game themselves.

MortDubois said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That's simple. For the most part in lower tiered category races, everyone, and I do mean
everyone, that is left at the end of the race truly and honestly believe that they can win it.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Tom

Just out of curiosity, what is the alternative to this scenario?

is just a low level race. Sooner or later you'll get away for good. I find that shouting out and
mouthing off how lame everyone is, and how everyone is going to win the sprint, and "oh, how much
fun this is," and "oh, thanks for using *your* effort to help me" seems to help a little. I
downgraded and the worst thing about it was the *style* of racing.

[email hidden] (PedalChick) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Most women aren't confident in their ability to attack and recover, so they will only expend their
energy to make sure someone else doesn't get away, but are afraid to lay it on the line
themselves.

I think this is the reason lower cat riders also chase and sit on any move. Lack of confidence in
their fitness (which may be justified) and maybe a lack of experience that doesn't let them
see/think beyond what is happening at the moment.

If you are more confident in your abilities you don't consider every attack a threat and you are
willing to let riders go up the road knowing you can do something about it (bridge, chase etc.) if
the move becomes a threat.

-Amit