Maximum L4 time in one session

Not much more than 100 minutes in Zone 4 and above...and this is in 4-5 hour Cat 1 RRs and related training.

You'd probably need RD's parsing ap in order to determine this from an unstructured ride/race.

Meh. I did 3x30's on the trainer last spring at IF=.95+

It's really no big deal. If I'd had the time and inclination, I certainly could have gone longer by staying lower in L4.

Edit: yes, drug free. 😉

frenchyge said:

Meh. I did 3x30's on the trainer last spring at IF=.95+

It's really no big deal. If I'd had the time and inclination, I certainly could have gone longer by staying lower in L4.

Edit: yes, drug free. 😉

Yeah, judging by NP I could stay in L4 for 2.5+hours. Not sure I'd want to though.

TiMan said:

I am curious to know what you all think a maximum time per session should be for L4....building up to this over months of course....and drug free 😄

Be good to hear from Ric or Andy if there are any "studies" that address this.....or their personal opinion.

"In my day" while racing Cat 1 I would motor pace for 90 minutes with up to 80 minutes at threshold.

I think it will differ based on how high one's FTP is in relation to their mass. For instance, one poster above may believe they can handle 2.5 hours of threshold in a single session, but for someone that weights 70 kilos and has an FTP of 420 watts, they'll put out 3780 kj's just in the time they are at threshold. To do a session like that would be pretty incredible considering the percentage of glycogen we burn at threshold, the amount of glycogen we can store, and the amount of glycogen we can take in to utilize while exercising.

joemw said:

I think it will differ based on how high one's FTP is in relation to their mass. For instance, one poster above may believe they can handle 2.5 hours of threshold in a single session, but for someone that weights 70 kilos and has an FTP of 420 watts, they'll put out 3780 kj's just in the time they are at threshold. To do a session like that would be pretty incredible considering the percentage of glycogen we burn at threshold, the amount of glycogen we can store, and the amount of glycogen we can take in to utilize while exercising.

I think it would really depend on "what value @ level 4"? If my threshold was 340, then if i understand correctly that is the average power I can sustain for an hour before I drop. Obviously - a continuous effort at this level for 1 hour is harder than 3 x 20 with 10 mins rest in between each interval. With rest periods it must also be possible to operate longer than one hour at this value. But not without some rest periods. Correct?

Also - many of us assume L4 to mean "close to" of FTP - so for me over 320 counts as L4 - but I could perhaps hold 320 for 2 hours without rest, but would be really gasping to push >340 for more than half that duration. I could probably also make 3 x 350 if I had sufficient rest between each effort.

See what I mean? I think the question - "how long can you train in L4?" is different to "How long can you ride at your FTP?'

joemw said:

I think it will differ based on how high one's FTP is in relation to their mass. For instance, one poster above may believe they can handle 2.5 hours of threshold in a single session, but for someone that weights 70 kilos and has an FTP of 420 watts, they'll put out 3780 kj's just in the time they are at threshold. To do a session like that would be pretty incredible considering the percentage of glycogen we burn at threshold, the amount of glycogen we can store, and the amount of glycogen we can take in to utilize while exercising.

Wouldn't the people with the high FTP also have more glycogen stored in their muscles? And be more efficient at burning fat even at higher intensities, etc.?

BullGod said:

"How long can you ride at your FTP?'

Damn, I must be all whack cause no matter what I do 60min at FTP is my max 🙄.

NM87710 said:

Damn, I must be all whack cause no matter what I do 60min at FTP is my max 🙄.

My point is - if you could split the time you sopend at FTP into 20 minute blocks with 10 minute rest periods in between could you do more than 3 of them? ie. more than an hour at FTP?

I'll bet you could....

joemw said:

I think it will differ based on how high one's FTP is in relation to their mass. For instance, one poster above may believe they can handle 2.5 hours of threshold in a single session, but for someone that weights 70 kilos and has an FTP of 420 watts, they'll put out 3780 kj's just in the time they are at threshold. To do a session like that would be pretty incredible considering the percentage of glycogen we burn at threshold, the amount of glycogen we can store, and the amount of glycogen we can take in to utilize while exercising.

Good points.....AND there is more general bodily stress too. But the mental stress would be huge and you would burn yourself out mentally rather quickly too.

BullGod said:

I think it would really depend on "what value @ level 4"? If my threshold was 340, then if i understand correctly that is the average power I can sustain for an hour before I drop. Obviously - a continuous effort at this level for 1 hour is harder than 3 x 20 with 10 mins rest in between each interval. With rest periods it must also be possible to operate longer than one hour at this value. But not without some rest periods. Correct?

Also - many of us assume L4 to mean "close to" of FTP - so for me over 320 counts as L4 - but I could perhaps hold 320 for 2 hours without rest, but would be really gasping to push >340 for more than half that duration. I could probably also make 3 x 350 if I had sufficient rest between each effort.

See what I mean? I think the question - "how long can you train in L4?" is different to "How long can you ride at your FTP?'

Another good point.

By L4 I meant damn close or at 100%FTP.

Regarding time ....let me clarify... How much L4 in one session and not how long to train or how long you can hold L4 without stopping.

BullGod said:

My point is - if you could split the time you sopend at FTP into 20 minute blocks with 10 minute rest periods in between could you do more than 3 of them? ie. more than an hour at FTP?

I'll bet you could....

ABSOLUTELY Bull.

NM87710 that is why we divide it up most of the time. The only thing that longer undivided sessions do, that say 20 minute session don't do as well, is to make you mentally tougher perhaps.
Jack Daniels, worlds #1 running coach/physiologist and guru, proved that it doesn't matter if you divide up threshold sessions....what causes the adaptations is total time.
That said, I never recommend short sets such as 10 minutes unless you are climbing and the only hill you have is 8-10 minutes long. :o

TiMan said:

I am curious to know what you all think a maximum time per session should be for L4....building up to this over months of course....and drug free 😄

Be good to hear from Ric or Andy if there are any "studies" that address this.....or their personal opinion.

"In my day" while racing Cat 1 I would motor pace for 90 minutes with up to 80 minutes at threshold.

I think it's an impossible question to answer, since 'L4' is still a pretty broad range, if you define it according to the Coggan/CP levels.

In the first few weeks of training I tend to focus at the low end of L4, doing blocks of 25-30 minutes, and can easily do 90-120 minutes within a few weeks. As my training progresses, I start doing shorter blocks at the higher end of L4 (say 12-16 minutes), and 40-50 minutes of total work is very, very tough. So, in other words, as my training progresses, I'm doing less total time in L4, not more. If your power keeps improving while doing workouts at the low end of L4, then by all means, keep doing them. Mine plateaus pretty quickly, though, and I need the extra stimulus of going harder to get faster.

Remember, I'd worry more about getting faster than 'how much time you can do a 'X' level'. Sounds obvious, but I think some times folks get lost in the charts on their CP home page.

RipVanCommittee said:

I think it's an impossible question to answer, since 'L4' is still a pretty broad range, if you define it according to the Coggan/CP levels.

Actually, I have the answer to this question (in fact, I have the answer to this question for every ride in 2006). Maximum L4-L7 minutes by level (as per AC schema):
L4 - 128
L5 - 16
L6 - 19
L7 - 10
Total - 173

Note that L4 was derived based on NP and L5-L7 were derived based on AP. FTP was 300W and should be pretty close to accurate. Total TSS of L4-L7 efforts was 260. It was a good ride.😄

RapDaddyo said:

Actually, I have the answer to this question (in fact, I have the answer to this question for every ride in 2006). Maximum L4-L7 minutes by level (as per AC schema):
L4 - 128
L5 - 16
L6 - 19
L7 - 10
Total - 173

Note that L4 was derived based on NP and L5-L7 were derived based on AP. FTP was 300W and should be pretty close to accurate. Total TSS of L4-L7 efforts was 260. It was a good ride.😄

I think you kinda missed the point of my post, though. It depends on where you are on the range of 'L4'. If you're at the very top end of the range, then it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to do 128 minutes, since the top end of L4 is over FTP (on the Coggan schema), which is why I think getting bogged down shooting to maximize total minutes misses the point a little.

RipVanCommittee said:

IIn the first few weeks of training I tend to focus at the low end of L4, doing blocks of 25-30 minutes, and can easily do 90-120 minutes within a few weeks. As my training progresses, I start doing shorter blocks at the higher end of L4 (say 12-16 minutes), and 40-50 minutes of total work is very, very tough. So, in other words, as my training progresses, I'm doing less total time in L4, not more. If your power keeps improving while doing workouts at the low end of L4, then by all means, keep doing them. Mine plateaus pretty quickly, though, and I need the extra stimulus of going harder to get faster.

This sounds like how I approach it/my experience (except that the only time I train for >1 h is on the weekends, and those rides tend to be unstructured level 3, not structured level 4).

RipVanCommittee said:

I think you kinda missed the point of my post, though. It depends on where you are on the range of 'L4'. If you're at the very top end of the range, then it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to do 128 minutes, since the top end of L4 is over FTP (on the Coggan schema), which is why I think getting bogged down shooting to maximize total minutes misses the point a little.

My response was in answer to the OP's question of maximum L4 time in a single session (i.e., ride). So, a 2x20 would be 40 mins total L4 time. Of course I agree that 128 mins of L4 as a single effort is not going to be at 100%FTP and for many would not be possible even at the lower end of the L4 bracket. I did not add that additional constraint to the OP's question.

TiMan said:

ABSOLUTELY Bull.

NM87710 that is why we divide it up most of the time. The only thing that longer undivided sessions do, that say 20 minute session don't do as well, is to make you mentally tougher perhaps.
Jack Daniels, worlds #1 running coach/physiologist and guru, proved that it doesn't matter if you divide up threshold sessions....what causes the adaptations is total time.
That said, I never recommend short sets such as 10 minutes unless you are climbing and the only hill you have is 8-10 minutes long. :o

L4 is a wide band including FTP. Lots of room for interpretation. I break L4 down as lowerL4 up to FTP and FTP up to upperL4. Very different training zones. Personally if my L4 training goal for a ride is under FTP then I do it in one continuous interval regardless of time(i.e. 90min at 95% of FTP. But then my racing includes stage races with long 40min+ TT's & climbs plus my style is more attacking. Also, I need to train my mind for the type of racing/pain it will encounter. Maybe I'm just thick headed cause 4x20x10 L4's just won't cut it for me compared to 1x90 L4. That being said if my L4 training goal for a ride is 105%FTP then I break it down into multiple smaller intervals(i.e. 4x15x5 at 105%FTP) - because they really hurt:eek: !

just my 2 pesos

RipVanCommittee said:

I think it's an impossible question to answer, since 'L4' is still a pretty broad range, if you define it according to the Coggan/CP levels.

In the first few weeks of training I tend to focus at the low end of L4, doing blocks of 25-30 minutes, and can easily do 90-120 minutes within a few weeks. As my training progresses, I start doing shorter blocks at the higher end of L4 (say 12-16 minutes), and 40-50 minutes of total work is very, very tough. So, in other words, as my training progresses, I'm doing less total time in L4, not more. If your power keeps improving while doing workouts at the low end of L4, then by all means, keep doing them. Mine plateaus pretty quickly, though, and I need the extra stimulus of going harder to get faster.

Remember, I'd worry more about getting faster than 'how much time you can do a 'X' level'. Sounds obvious, but I think some times folks get lost in the charts on their CP home page.

Well aside from doing the lower L4 stuff continuous rather than split into intervals - that's pretty much what happens to me. I think I can go longer without plateauing perhaps ..

Something came to mind about TSS scores and what it tells or doesn't tell us about workouts: specifically across the L4 range. Roughly speaking when fresh & motivated I can handle:

0.9 IF ~ 3hrs
0.95 IF ~ 1.5-2 hrs
1.00 IF ~ 1 hr
1.05 IF ~ 0.5-0.7 hrs

I'm talking in AP terms here so treat these as quasi iso-power workouts.

There seems to be a disconnect between TSS tells us and what we (or at least I) can handle. Or is it just me?

Or is TSS not yet 'sharp' enough to diagnose what effectively is a narrow range of intensities?