Mavic Open Pro, Open Pro CD, Ceramic

RS said:

What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

RS said:

What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

RS said:

What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

Quoted message said:

what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

They all start as a basic OpenPro rim, then dipped for hard
anodizing(tend to crack around eyelets, since the eyelets are
installed after the 'dipping', or have a ceramic strip glued onto the
side wall..but construction of all the same. use the basic silver or
black..not the CD, IMO.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

RS wrote:
> What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
> venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
> money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.
what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

They all start as a basic OpenPro rim, then dipped for hard
anodizing(tend to crack around eyelets,

all open pros are anodized - even the silver. if you mean the cd's
crack, i've never seen it on mine - and i have good mileage on them.
they're built to manufacturer spec spoke tension. the only people here
who report eyelet problems with eyelet cracking do not have it exclusive
to cd's and do not build with tensiometers.

Quoted message said:

since the eyelets are
installed after the 'dipping', or have a ceramic strip glued

glued??? plasma arc spray!!! high tech. expensive.

Quoted message said:

onto the
side wall..but construction of all the same. use the basic silver or
black..not the CD, IMO.

basic, sure. no point spending more if not riding in the rain.

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

RS said:

What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

if you're not riding in the rain, a standard rim is fine. there's no
other differences in construction other than the finishes and their
function.

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> RS wrote:
>> What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
>> venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
>> money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.
> what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
> impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
> or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.
I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

Quoted message said:

They all start as a basic OpenPro rim, then dipped for hard
anodizing(tend to crack around eyelets,

all open pros are anodized - even the silver. if you mean the cd's
crack, i've never seen it on mine - and i have good mileage on them.
they're built to manufacturer spec spoke tension. the only people here
who report eyelet problems with eyelet cracking do not have it exclusive
to cd's and do not build with tensiometers.

Google MA-40, CD, vs MA-40 silver. 'Anodizing' for color is not the
same thing as 'hard anodizing'. 2 completely different
processes.Having eyelets installed after hard anodizing, causing small
cracks that often lead to eyelets pulling out is common knowledge
among wheelbuilders..Jobst??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since the eyelets are
installed after the 'dipping', or have a ceramic strip glued

glued??? plasma arc spray!!! high tech. expensive.

whatever-glued, plasma arc sprayed...not welded.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

onto the
side wall..but construction of all the same. use the basic silver or
black..not the CD, IMO.

basic, sure. no point spending more if not riding in the rain.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

jim beam said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

On May 11, 11:36 pm, RS <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
>> RS wrote:
>>> What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
>>> venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
>>> money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.
>> what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
>> impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
>> or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.
> I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
> and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.
They all start as a basic OpenPro rim, then dipped for hard
anodizing(tend to crack around eyelets,

all open pros are anodized - even the silver. if you mean the cd's
crack, i've never seen it on mine - and i have good mileage on them.
they're built to manufacturer spec spoke tension. the only people here
who report eyelet problems with eyelet cracking do not have it exclusive
to cd's and do not build with tensiometers.

Google MA-40, CD, vs MA-40 silver.

yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
tension, regardless of rim finish.

Quoted message said:

'Anodizing' for color is not the
same thing as 'hard anodizing'. 2 completely different
processes.Having eyelets installed after hard anodizing, causing small
cracks that often lead to eyelets pulling out is common knowledge
among wheelbuilders..Jobst??

yeah. jobst is the problem on this one. jobst thinks anodizing causes
cracking because he did a dye penetrant test. there is no way a dye
penetrant test determines whether anodizing has anything to do with it -
all it does is identify presence, not cause. rim cracking is cause by
spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" - pure and simple.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

since the eyelets are
installed after the 'dipping', or have a ceramic strip glued

glued??? plasma arc spray!!! high tech. expensive.

whatever-glued, plasma arc sprayed...not welded.

whatever??? dude, there's a /world/ of freakin' difference between
plasma arc deposition and glue!!! that's like saying "whatever" to the
difference in properties between rubber and glass!!!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

onto the
side wall..but construction of all the same. use the basic silver or
black..not the CD, IMO.

basic, sure. no point spending more if not riding in the rain.

jim beam said:

yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
tension, regardless of rim finish.

Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented. That's not an Open Pro of
course. Got one hanging in the garage that I should get around to
throwing away...

Velocity and Alex rims are the way to go. Cheaper and stronger.
Unless you're rerimming and need the same ERD of course.

landotter said:

jim beam said:

yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
tension, regardless of rim finish.

Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented.

no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

if "mr. condemn a whole industry with underinformed supposition" had
bothered to do /any/ homework on this subject at all, he'd have looked
into anisotropy and extrusion flaws.

Quoted message said:

That's not an Open Pro of
course. Got one hanging in the garage that I should get around to
throwing away...

Velocity and Alex rims are the way to go. Cheaper and stronger.
Unless you're rerimming and need the same ERD of course.

jim beam said:

landotter said:

On May 12, 1:24 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
tension, regardless of rim finish.

Quoted message said:

Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented.

no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

Yes it most likely can. It was the dark ano ones that had a really
nasty habit of cracking. The lightly anodized silvery ones didn't tend
to crack AFAIK. Maybe a bunch of light ano ones did and I didn't hear
about it. Testimony welcome.

landotter said:

jim beam said:

landotter said:

On May 12, 1:24 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
> better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
> say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
> tension, regardless of rim finish.
Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented.

no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

Yes it most likely can. It was the dark ano ones that had a really
nasty habit of cracking. The lightly anodized silvery ones didn't tend
to crack AFAIK. Maybe a bunch of light ano ones did and I didn't hear
about it. Testimony welcome.

i've got testimony - i've got 2 pairs of ma3 hard anodized rims built
up. they were on sale at nashbar a while back. i put about 6k on a
road pair before relegating them to "backup" position. the other pair
are on a track bike. no evidence of any cracking in either application
yet. i used a tensiometer during build.

jim beam said:

landotter said:

jim beam said:

landotter wrote:
> On May 12, 1:24 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
>> better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
>> say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
>> tension, regardless of rim finish.
> Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
> cracking and anodizing is well documented.
no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

Quoted message said:

Yes it most likely can. It was the dark ano ones that had a really
nasty habit of cracking. The lightly anodized silvery ones didn't tend
to crack AFAIK. Maybe a bunch of light ano ones did and I didn't hear
about it. Testimony welcome.

i've got testimony - i've got 2 pairs of ma3 hard anodized rims built
up. they were on sale at nashbar a while back. i put about 6k on a
road pair before relegating them to "backup" position. the other pair
are on a track bike. no evidence of any cracking in either application
yet. i used a tensiometer during build.

That's certainly testimony, but not evidence. I'd never cracked a rim
in my life till I cracked a non-drive side nipple on an MA3. No
tensionmeter here, but my spoke wrenches are so [censored] that if I tried
to bring a rim up to spectacular tension, I'd round off the nipple.

So no high tension here, just a 185# rider. Didn't hit anything, just
heard it pop on a descent. This assumption that it's a poor build is a
bit presumptuous if not a wee bit arrogant. It's pretty widely known
that hard-ano Mavics are notorious for this. I don't know why you feel
the need to be contrary.

jim beam said:

landotter said:

jim beam said:

yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
tension, regardless of rim finish.

Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented.

no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

if "mr. condemn a whole industry with underinformed supposition" had
bothered to do /any/ homework on this subject at all, he'd have looked
into anisotropy and extrusion flaws.

In the past, you've often attributed cracks along the circumference to
extrusion flaws. I think it's a significant change in your position that
you now mention anisotropy. After all, anisotropy is a property of even
the best-made rims, isn't it? Wouldn't one expect many anodizing cracks to
take the path of least resistance as they propagate?

I suppose you might argue that anodizing cranks don't propagate into the
aluminum substrate. That seems an unusual position for you take since the
importance of surface finish is one of your constant refrains.

Or is it that you deny that anodizing cracks?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not an Open Pro of
course. Got one hanging in the garage that I should get around to
throwing away...

Velocity and Alex rims are the way to go. Cheaper and stronger. Unless
you're rerimming and need the same ERD of course.

jim beam said:

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

RS wrote:
> What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
> venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
> money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.

I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

if you're not riding in the rain, a standard rim is fine. there's no
other differences in construction other than the finishes and their
function.

But if you are riding in the rain...

Wednesday, I took the tire off my (silver) SON/Open Pro in order to
loan the wheel out and found the braking surface utterly concave. So
much so that I wouldn't ride it, never mind loan it to someone.
Fortunately, the LBS had lots of 36 hole silver Open Pros, so I got to
try the tape the new rim to the old and transfer the spokes technique.

BTW, I have had a silver Open Pro rim crack around the eyelets (rear
wheel). It was the tightest wheel I've ever owned. It would tend to
indicate that spoke tension can cause the cracking.

Orin.

landotter said:

jim beam said:

landotter said:

On May 12, 5:01 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>> On May 12, 1:24 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
>>> better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
>>> say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
>>> tension, regardless of rim finish.
>> Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
>> cracking and anodizing is well documented.
> no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
> comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
> anodizing.
Yes it most likely can. It was the dark ano ones that had a really
nasty habit of cracking. The lightly anodized silvery ones didn't tend
to crack AFAIK. Maybe a bunch of light ano ones did and I didn't hear
about it. Testimony welcome.

i've got testimony - i've got 2 pairs of ma3 hard anodized rims built
up. they were on sale at nashbar a while back. i put about 6k on a
road pair before relegating them to "backup" position. the other pair
are on a track bike. no evidence of any cracking in either application
yet. i used a tensiometer during build.

That's certainly testimony, but not evidence. I'd never cracked a rim
in my life till I cracked a non-drive side nipple on an MA3. No
tensionmeter here, but my spoke wrenches are so [censored] that if I tried
to bring a rim up to spectacular tension, I'd round off the nipple.

So no high tension here, just a 185# rider. Didn't hit anything, just
heard it pop on a descent. This assumption that it's a poor build is a
bit presumptuous if not a wee bit arrogant. It's pretty widely known
that hard-ano Mavics are notorious for this. I don't know why you feel
the need to be contrary.

why do i keep interjecting reality and not accept the propagation of
myth you mean? "widely known" on r.b.t. is not "widely known" in the
real world. after all, "widely known" "facts" on r.b.t. include the
elimination of metal fatigue in materials with no fatigue endurance
limit and that all spokes are "swaged".

i've got [and have ridden hard] cd open pro's, x618's and ma3's. for
years. never a crack. the only rims i have that evidence any form of
cracking at the eyelets are silver anodized x517's. and their spoke
tension is /way/ [3x] over spec. if cracking of cd rims is "well known"
in the real world, why don't i have cracked rims??? i weigh #205.

Gary Young said:

jim beam said:

landotter said:

On May 12, 1:24 pm, jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

> yeah, and it's all unsubstantiated jobstian [censored]. you should know
> better than that by now. there is 100% correlation between those that
> say they have cracking and those that don't use manufacturer spoke
> tension, regardless of rim finish.
Erm, with the previous generation's MA3, the correlation between
cracking and anodizing is well documented.

no it's not because there is _no_ unanodized ma3 available for
comparison! an ma3 may crack, but that cannot simply be attributed to
anodizing.

if "mr. condemn a whole industry with underinformed supposition" had
bothered to do /any/ homework on this subject at all, he'd have looked
into anisotropy and extrusion flaws.

In the past, you've often attributed cracks along the circumference to
extrusion flaws. I think it's a significant change in your position that
you now mention anisotropy.

eh? anisotropy is the result of extrusion...

Quoted message said:

After all, anisotropy is a property of even
the best-made rims, isn't it?

not "best-made", simply "extruded". /all/ aluminum rims are extruded afaik.

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't one expect many anodizing cracks to
take the path of least resistance as they propagate?

"least resistance" with regard to what???

Quoted message said:

I suppose you might argue that anodizing cranks don't propagate into the
aluminum substrate. That seems an unusual position for you take since the
importance of surface finish is one of your constant refrains.

eh?

Quoted message said:

Or is it that you deny that anodizing cracks?

no gary, it cracks. but there's no observable connection between
anodizing crack angle and rim crack angle. if the two are not
coincident, the anodizing's not the cause. particularly when you're
trying to cite a dye penetrant test as evidence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's not an Open Pro of
course. Got one hanging in the garage that I should get around to
throwing away...

Velocity and Alex rims are the way to go. Cheaper and stronger. Unless
you're rerimming and need the same ERD of course.

"jim beam" wrote

Quoted message said:

yeah. jobst is the problem on this one. jobst thinks anodizing causes
cracking because he did a dye penetrant test. there is no way a dye
penetrant test determines whether anodizing has anything to do with it -
all it does is identify presence, not cause. rim cracking is cause by
spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" - pure and simple.

It is a mistake to claim that hard anodizing has no impact on the fatigue
resistance of aluminum products. The following are quotes from "The
Properties of Electordeposited Metals and Alloys a Handbook" Second Edition,
edited by William H. Safranek published by the AESFS, 1986 ISBN
0-936569-00-X, all from chapter 3 - "Anodic Coatings on Aluminum":

" Typical thickness requirements for decorative applications not subject to
aggressive environment are about 7-10 micrometers. For exterior
architectural components, a thickness in the range of 18-25 micrometers is
usually specified. Anodic coatings designed for wear resistance may be
produced in greater thickness, up to over 100 micrometers." (page 29)

"In general, anodic coatings more than a few micons thick cause a
significant loss of fatigue strength in aluminum alloys. Most data on this
property have been for strong alloys of the 2000, 5000, and 7000 classes.
Unsealed sulfuric acid and chromic acid coatings less than about 5
micrometers thick had little or no effect on fatigue strength at 100 million
cycles." ... "Far greater losses were induced by sealing the coatings in
water; sealed sulfuric acid coatings 25 micrometers thick induced fatigue
strength losses approaching 35 percent at 100 million cycles. The effects
of thick, hard anodic coatings on fatigue are even greater. Coatings 25
micrometers up to 125 micrometers of one proprietary hard anodic coating
process reduced stress to failure at 10 million cycles by more than 50
percent." (page 32)

Harry Phinney

I can easily believe that heat-treated rims crack more easily than
plain vanilla non-anodized rims, but it's not for the metallurgical
reasons that you might think.

I had heat-treated rims on a TREK 500 in 1985. After going down an
Illinois pothole, i couldn't get it true. Turns out bikeshop couldn't
get it true. Ok, i got a new rim.

A few months later, and the same pothole at my second rim. It turns
out that heat-treated rims are so stiff that they are very difficult
to bring true once bent. Thus, if you _CAN_ re-true a bent heat
treated rim, you are probably using excessive spoke tension to get the
job done.

So, heat treating might lead to more cracks, but so would any
treatment that stiffens a rim.

And, by the way, in my experience all heat-treated rims are anodized.

A naive person might then say that anodized rims have more cracks
around the spoke holes, and they'd be right ... *sigh* ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Orin said:

jim beam said:

RS said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

> RS wrote:
>> What is the difference, except for price, in the 3 versions of the
>> venerable Mavic Open Pro rim? And are the higher priced version
>> money well spent? note: I rarely ride in the rain.

Quoted message said:

> what's your objective if you don't ride in the rain? ceramic rims are
> impervious to the rain-road grit. cd rims are similar, but not as hard
> or long lasting. ordinary open pros are not very resistant to grit at all.
I was asking as to any other differences in construction, finish, longevity
and intended use. Its why I'm asking, I don't know.

if you're not riding in the rain, a standard rim is fine. there's no
other differences in construction other than the finishes and their
function.

But if you are riding in the rain...

Wednesday, I took the tire off my (silver) SON/Open Pro in order to
loan the wheel out and found the braking surface utterly concave. So
much so that I wouldn't ride it, never mind loan it to someone.
Fortunately, the LBS had lots of 36 hole silver Open Pros, so I got to
try the tape the new rim to the old and transfer the spokes technique.

BTW, I have had a silver Open Pro rim crack around the eyelets (rear
wheel). It was the tightest wheel I've ever owned. It would tend to
indicate that spoke tension can cause the cracking.

But it should not. Rims should be built to sustain all the spoke
force it takes to potato chip the rim, as the Sun CR-18 can.

--
Michael Press