Mavic MA3 v Open Pro

MA3 rims are wider.

Quoted message said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the Open Pros
just for the small weight difference. Are there any performance,
durability or other issues that I am missing.

Thank you.
/Dave

David M. Grey said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the Open Pros
just for the small weight difference. Are there any performance,
durability or other issues that I am missing.

Go read this thread in alt.mountain-bike
From: "Joseph Jozwik" <[email hidden]>
Newsgroups: alt.mountain-bike
Subject: Nice Crash Helmet Cam
Message-ID: <[email hidden]>

Mavic rims SUCK and so does their customer service.

"David M. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference

between

Quoted message said:

these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the

Open Pros

Quoted message said:

just for the small weight difference. Are there any

performance,

Quoted message said:

durability or other issues that I am missing.

I believe that Andrew Muzi and some others have reported problems
with the eyelets on the MA3. I built 3 wheels with the MA3s and
found them difficult to work with -- binding at the eyelet/nipple
interface even with oil and difficulty getting them true. I have
no axe to grind with Mavic and used many of the MA2s, which were
a superior rim and were a breeze to build. I find Open Pros easy
to build, and they seem to hold up just as well as the MA3s --
and they have spoke sockets and not just grommets (at least they
used to). I prefer sockets (or "double eyelets"😉 because they
are easier to build and if you get cracking around the spoke
hole, then it takes a lot more to pull the socket through the rim
than to pull through a single eyelet. This was an issue for me
on a recent ride on some old Open 4CDs. If I wanted an MA2-like
rim, however, I would get a Torelli Master. -- Jay Beattie.

sittingduck said:

Mavic rims SUCK

A bit of a generalisation. Most people are very happy with them.

and so does their customer service.

They'd probably call it Gallic charm ;-)

In article <[email hidden]>,

David M. Grey said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the Open Pros
just for the small weight difference. Are there any performance,
durability or other issues that I am missing.

I like the eyelets better on the Open Pro, although I build and ride
on both of them. The MA3 eyelets don't seem to handle high spoke tension
as well.

David M. Grey said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims.

Well, if you buy 2 rims, you can get OpenPros at nashbar for $43
(silver) right now (20% off all orders > $50). Don't forget to use
discount code W191, for an extra 10%. The markups on Open Pro rims
are outragoues, IMHO.

The OpenPro's up into a year or two ago had problems with eyelets
separating from the rim, and or "pings" (e.g. noisy rims.) I believe
this problem has been fixed, but I would stay away from older used or
NOS Open Pro rims.

The MA3 is a wider rim with a lower profile - the OpenPro is a thinner
and lighter rim with a higher profile. I don't know about you, but
there are very few clincher rims for sale that weigh less than 470g,
so I think the Open Pro's are something pretty special.

For $60 a rim, it's a crock that an OpenPro rim comes with an 8-inch
commercial stickered onto the surface of the rim.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Well, if you buy 2 rims, you can get OpenPros at nashbar for $43
(silver) right now (20% off all orders > $50). Don't forget to use
discount code W191, for an extra 10%. The markups on Open Pro rims
are outragoues, IMHO.

The OpenPro's up into a year or two ago had problems with eyelets
separating from the rim, and or "pings" (e.g. noisy rims.) I believe
this problem has been fixed, but I would stay away from older used or
NOS Open Pro rims.

How do we know that the Nashbar rims are not older NOS?

Wayne

The Open Pros have sockets (also known as double eyelets) which are inserts
at the spoke hole that spread the spoke load to the outer wall of the rim as
well as the inner. The MA3s have only single eyelets on the inner wall of
the rim. In theory, if a rim is properly designed, with more material on the
inner wall, this isn't necessarly a problem. The Sun ME14A is one single
eyelet rim with a decent reputation. But this is not always the case. Some
rims have a habit oof cracking at the spoke holes.

In my experience, rims with single eyelets crack more often than similar
rims with no eyelets at all. Double eyelet rims are generally superior.

There are other options for double eyelet rims. Check out the Ambrosio
Excellence, Torelli Master, Fir Zenith, even Alex R390 (currently $20 at
Nashbar).

-Bruce-

"David M. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the Open Pros
just for the small weight difference. Are there any performance,
durability or other issues that I am missing.

Thank you.
/Dave

Quoted message said:

"David M. Grey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference

between

Quoted message said:

these to rims. I can't seem to justify the extra cost for the

Open Pros

Quoted message said:

just for the small weight difference. Are there any

performance,

Quoted message said:

durability or other issues that I am missing.

Jay Beattie said:

I believe that Andrew Muzi and some others have reported problems
with the eyelets on the MA3. I built 3 wheels with the MA3s and
found them difficult to work with -- binding at the eyelet/nipple
interface even with oil and difficulty getting them true. I have
no axe to grind with Mavic and used many of the MA2s, which were
a superior rim and were a breeze to build. I find Open Pros easy
to build, and they seem to hold up just as well as the MA3s --
and they have spoke sockets and not just grommets (at least they
used to). I prefer sockets (or "double eyelets"😉 because they
are easier to build and if you get cracking around the spoke
hole, then it takes a lot more to pull the socket through the rim
than to pull through a single eyelet. This was an issue for me
on a recent ride on some old Open 4CDs. If I wanted an MA2-like
rim, however, I would get a Torelli Master. -- Jay Beattie.

I think that (spokes pulling through MA3) may have been
Peter about a week ago. We passed on that rim and went with
Montreals for a few years instead. Now we're mostly Velocity
AeroHead, AeroHead OC (offset)rear. I have built some
Torelli without any problems.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

dmgry-<< Other than price and a couple of onces what is the difference between
these to rims. >><BR><BR>

Single eyelet that in my experience, pulls out with way too much frequency-for
the MA-3. I would stay away from this rim. Torelli Expert or Master. Velocity
Aero are all good, lower price choices for a good, not heavy, rim.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Donald Gillies said:

Well, if you buy 2 rims, you can get OpenPros at nashbar for $43
(silver) right now (20% off all orders > $50). Don't forget to use
discount code W191, for an extra 10%. The markups on Open Pro rims
are outragoues, IMHO.

The OpenPro's up into a year or two ago had problems with eyelets
separating from the rim, and or "pings" (e.g. noisy rims.) I believe
this problem has been fixed, but I would stay away from older used or
NOS Open Pro rims.

The MA3 is a wider rim with a lower profile - the OpenPro is a thinner
and lighter rim with a higher profile. I don't know about you, but
there are very few clincher rims for sale that weigh less than 470g,
so I think the Open Pro's are something pretty special.

For $60 a rim, it's a crock that an OpenPro rim comes with an 8-inch
commercial stickered onto the surface of the rim.

Out of interest, what are the differences between an OpenPro and my old
Open4CD rims? They look superficially similar.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Out of interest, what are the differences between an OpenPro and my old=

=20

Quoted message said:

Open4CD rims? They look superficially similar.

They are very similar, but the CD stands for "Couche Dur" (hard anodized)=
=2E

The Open Pro has a welded joint and a machined braking surace=20
("S.U.P."=3DSoud=E9 Machine Proces)

This is a good-news/bad news technology: Machined/welded rims give=20
smooth braking even when new, but the lifespan of the braking surface is =

reduced, an issue for high mileage riders, especially those who ride in=20
wet, sloppy conditions.

Sheldon "Acronymes Fran=E7ais" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; |
| but it is always the strongly marked feature of all |
| religions established by law. |
| Take away the law-establishment, and every religion |
| re-assumes its original benignity. |
| Thomas Paine -- The Rights of Man, 1791 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Out of interest, what are the differences between an OpenPro and my
old Open4CD rims? They look superficially similar.

They are very similar, but the CD stands for "Couche Dur" (hard anodized).

The Open Pro has a welded joint and a machined braking surace
("S.U.P."=Soudé Machine Proces)

This is a good-news/bad news technology: Machined/welded rims give
smooth braking even when new, but the lifespan of the braking surface is
reduced, an issue for high mileage riders, especially those who ride in
wet, sloppy conditions.

i'm surprised you say that about lifespan sheldon! if an old rim is say
1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm wall thickness
after machining, where's the problem? if the wall is thinner, that's a
"design feature", it's not a function of machining.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Acronymes Français" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; |
| but it is always the strongly marked feature of all |
| religions established by law. |
| Take away the law-establishment, and every religion |
| re-assumes its original benignity. |
| Thomas Paine -- The Rights of Man, 1791 |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

hrothgar-<< Out of interest, what are the differences between an OpenPro and my
old
Open4CD rims? >><BR><BR>

Similar with the 'Reflex' made for one year between the two. Machined sidewalls
and welded seams were 'ideas' that Mavic thought were good ones altho all it
did was make them expensive.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Old Crow said:

I'm surprised you say that about lifespan Sheldon! If an old rim is say
1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm wall thickness
after machining, where's the problem? If the wall is thinner, that's a
"design feature", it's not a function of machining.

The problem is that unmachined rims are 1.5mm and machined rims are
under and over 1mm.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Old Crow said:

I'm surprised you say that about lifespan Sheldon! If an old rim is say
1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm wall thickness
after machining, where's the problem? If the wall is thinner, that's a
"design feature", it's not a function of machining.

The problem is that unmachined rims are 1.5mm and machined rims are
under and over 1mm.

i accept that they may be thinner, but it's a "design feature", not a
penalty of machining. even mavic aren't dumb enough to _not_ allow for
material loss.

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Old Crow said:

I'm surprised you say that about lifespan Sheldon! If an old rim
is say 1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm wall
thickness after machining, where's the problem? If the wall is
thinner, that's a "design feature", it's not a function of
machining.

The problem is that unmachined rims are 1.5mm and machined rims are
under and over 1mm.

i accept that they may be thinner, but it's a "design feature", not
a penalty of machining.

As has been previously discussed ad nauseum, the pre-machined
rimwalls maybe extruded to 1.5 mm thick, but the nature of extrusion
is such that the rim wall isn't straight. When it's bent into a hoop
and machined flat, there are areas of the rim where the wall is
thicker (> 1 mm) and thinner (< 1 mm). There's no way to tell where
the thin areas are, and this becomes a problem as the rim wears due
to breaking.

Quoted message said:

even mavic aren't dumb enough to _not_ allow for material loss.

Don't be too sure. Threre's an awful lot of other dumb stuff they do
with rims.

Tim McNamara said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Old Crow writes:

>I'm surprised you say that about lifespan Sheldon! If an old rim
>is say 1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm wall
>thickness after machining, where's the problem? If the wall is
>thinner, that's a "design feature", it's not a function of
>machining.

The problem is that unmachined rims are 1.5mm and machined rims are
under and over 1mm.

i accept that they may be thinner, but it's a "design feature", not
a penalty of machining.

As has been previously discussed ad nauseum, the pre-machined
rimwalls maybe extruded to 1.5 mm thick, but the nature of extrusion
is such that the rim wall isn't straight. When it's bent into a hoop
and machined flat, there are areas of the rim where the wall is
thicker (> 1 mm) and thinner (< 1 mm). There's no way to tell where
the thin areas are, and this becomes a problem as the rim wears due
to breaking.

with respect, i don't see how this "problem" if of greater magnitude
than an unmachined rim with an uneven surface causing grabbing or not
being at full efficiency because the pad and the rim surface haven't
worn together yet. both are potential killers right out of the box. a
rim failing because it's worn requires miles. miles during which the
rider should be inspecting for wear. just like the _brake_ disks on
your car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even mavic aren't dumb enough to _not_ allow for material loss.

Don't be too sure. Threre's an awful lot of other dumb stuff they do
with rims.

this is flame bait, but i'll bite anyway. what do /you/ think they do
that's warrants the description "an awful lot of other dumb stuff"?

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

>Old Crow writes:
>
>>I'm surprised you say that about lifespan Sheldon! If an old rim
>>is say 1mm wall thickness unmachined and a new rim is say 1mm
>>wall thickness after machining, where's the problem? If the wall
>>is thinner, that's a "design feature", it's not a function of
>>machining.
>
>The problem is that unmachined rims are 1.5mm and machined rims
>are under and over 1mm.

i accept that they may be thinner, but it's a "design feature", not
a penalty of machining.

Yes, and if you leave a bug in software long enough it too becomes a
"feature."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As has been previously discussed ad nauseum, the pre-machined
rimwalls maybe extruded to 1.5 mm thick, but the nature of
extrusion is such that the rim wall isn't straight. When it's bent
into a hoop and machined flat, there are areas of the rim where the
wall is thicker (> 1 mm) and thinner (< 1 mm). There's no way to
tell where the thin areas are, and this becomes a problem as the
rim wears due to breaking.

with respect, i don't see how this "problem" if of greater magnitude
than an unmachined rim with an uneven surface causing grabbing or
not being at full efficiency because the pad and the rim surface
haven't worn together yet. both are potential killers right out of
the box. a rim failing because it's worn requires miles. miles
during which the rider should be inspecting for wear. just like the
_brake_ disks on your car.

No, because the two sides of the unmachined extrusion will be the same
width apart (the extrusion undulates at a constant width), and the
brake pads will track this because they are not rigidly fixed in
place. This wears the sidewall pretty evenly, allowing a pretty good
estimate of when to replace the rim. The machining process doesn't
follow the undulations in the extrusion, which wears the sidewall
unevenly resulting in thinner spots; this results in the rider being
unable to gauge the sidewall wear at any given point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even mavic aren't dumb enough to _not_ allow for material loss.

Don't be too sure. Threre's an awful lot of other dumb stuff they
do with rims.

this is flame bait, but i'll bite anyway. what do /you/ think they
do that's warrants the description "an awful lot of other dumb
stuff"?

Flame bait for whom? Surely not you, in this circumstance. But let's
scroll through the list one more time (as my views are hardly hidden
from the newsgroup on this topic): eliminating nipple sockets and
going to a simple ferrule design, anodizing, the goofy design of the
nipple holders inside Cosmic rims, machining the sidewalls, etc.

We've gone from rims with good reliability to a bunch of "features"
that serve to lessen service life and line the pockets of Mavic's
owners by driving up retail price two- or threefold- obfuscated and
abetted by the apologists who claim that rims fail because spoke
tension is too high/too low, tire inflation pressure is too high/too
low, spokes are too thick/too thin, spoke patterns that are radial/not
radial, and on and on. Instead of a rim lasting 20,000 miles it lasts
2,000- and often weighs more than the older, more durable rims.