Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?

Quoted message said:

Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
for "recreation".

http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487

Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
with better spins than those already started?

They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to trash it,
however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing drugs.

Jan

(Jan) said:

They are in favor of pushing drugs.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Jan Drew says:

Quoted message said:

I thank God for Neurontin.

Aloha,

Rich

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
for "recreation".

http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487

Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
with better spins than those already started?

They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to trash

it,

Quoted message said:

however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing

drugs.

I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no proof
that these studies are relevant to humans.

"Mark ProbertDecember 24, 2002" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
for "recreation".

http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487

Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
with better spins than those already started?

They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to trash

it,

Quoted message said:

however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing

drugs.

I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no proof
that these studies are relevant to humans.

So much for your cover story about having kids on Ritalin!
[FYI, someone truly in that situation would be at least
a little worried, not flippant and quick on the defense.]

The "pushing facts" is a good angle though -- KOLs are
expected to retain "credibility" in order to have
maximum market impact.

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertDecember 24, 2002" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
>From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
>Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email hidden]>
>
>Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:
>

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
>the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
>for "recreation".
>
>http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487
>
>Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
>with better spins than those already started?

They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to

trash

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it,

Quoted message said:

however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing

drugs.

I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no proof
that these studies are relevant to humans.

So much for your cover story about having kids on Ritalin!
[FYI, someone truly in that situation would be at least
a little worried, not flippant and quick on the defense.]

My son's treatment has been well documented for years. You do not have a
clue.

I have seen no long term adverse problems with him. He is attending school
on a fullscholarship (talent and hard work based), working part-time and
earning a substantial salary as his talent, creativeness and energy are
appreciatred, has lot's of friends, is self sufficient, and enjoys life.

Thus, I see no evidence, from that source, that there is any need for
concern. I would think (an exercise you should try) that any adverse
reactions would have maifested themselves after 15 years.

Quoted message said:

The "pushing facts" is a good angle though -- KOLs are
expected to retain "credibility" in order to have
maximum market impact.

KOL?

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: "Mark ProbertDecember 26, 2002" [email hidden]
Date: 12/26/2003 10:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertDecember 24, 2002" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> >Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
> >From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
> >Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <[email hidden]>
> >
> >Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:
> >
>

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Quoted message said:

> >
> >drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
> >the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
> >for "recreation".
> >
> >http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487
> >
> >Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
> >with better spins than those already started?
>
> They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to

trash

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it,
> however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing
drugs.

I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no proof
that these studies are relevant to humans.

So much for your cover story about having kids on Ritalin!
[FYI, someone truly in that situation would be at least
a little worried, not flippant and quick on the defense.]

My son's treatment has been well documented for years. You do not have a
clue.

I have seen no long term adverse problems with him. He is attending school
on a fullscholarship (talent and hard work based), working part-time and
earning a substantial salary as his talent, creativeness and energy are
appreciatred, has lot's of friends, is self sufficient, and enjoys life.

Ins't it strang anecdotes don't count, unless it is Yours??

Quoted message said:

Thus, I see no evidence, from that source, that there is any need for
concern. I would think (an exercise you should try) that any adverse
reactions would have maifested themselves after 15 years.

There are plenty fact showing the adverse effects, like suicide.

You dismiss them.

Ho Hum

Jan

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: "Mark ProbertDecember 26, 2002"

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Date: 12/26/2003 10:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertDecember 24, 2002" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > >Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
> > >From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
> > >Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
> > >Message-id: <[email hidden]>
> > >
> > >Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:
> > >
> >
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05
> > >
> > >drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
> > >the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
> > >for "recreation".
> > >
> > >http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487
> > >
> > >Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
> > >with better spins than those already started?
> >
> > They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to

trash

Quoted message said:

> it,
> > however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of

pushing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> drugs.
>
> I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no

proof

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> that these studies are relevant to humans.

THIS IS THE PARAGRAPH (see below):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So much for your cover story about having kids on Ritalin!
[FYI, someone truly in that situation would be at least
a little worried, not flippant and quick on the defense.]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My son's treatment has been well documented for years. You do not have a
clue.

I have seen no long term adverse problems with him. He is attending

school

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on a fullscholarship (talent and hard work based), working part-time and
earning a substantial salary as his talent, creativeness and energy are
appreciatred, has lot's of friends, is self sufficient, and enjoys life.

Ins't it strang anecdotes don't count, unless it is Yours??

Anecdotes are not useful for proof. However, there was a specific claim made
where this anecdote was relevant. See the paprgraph I highlighted above...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thus, I see no evidence, from that source, that there is any need for
concern. I would think (an exercise you should try) that any adverse
reactions would have maifested themselves after 15 years.

There are plenty fact showing the adverse effects, like suicide.

Actually, no. Suicide has not been clearly documented as being caused by the
medication.

Quoted message said:

You dismiss them.

I dismiss what is not proven.

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right -- there's absolutely no way to know if this research
has any relevance at all to humans. Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 12/28/2003 12:12 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Showing the dangers of Ritalin brings out the best in the debunkers.

Quoted message said:

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right

No, he is making excuses. Rats and mice are used in reseach for a reason. He
only uses this excuse for Ritalin.

-- there's absolutely no way to know if this research

Quoted message said:

has any relevance at all to humans.

Using rats and mice for research is unheard of. I guess all research should
stop.

Quoted message said:

Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

Did you happen to notice this??

Preteen Ritalin May Increase Depression

Early Use of ADHD Drug Alters Brain, Rat Studies Show

By Daniel DeNoon
WebMD Medical News Reviewed By Brunilda Nazario, MD
on Monday, December 08, 2003

Dec. 8, 2003 -- Ritalin use in preteen children may lead to depression later in
life, studies of rats suggest.

But early use of Ritalin and other stimulant drugs seems to permanently alter
animals' brains.

****That raises concerns that the same thing might be happening in children who
take these drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)***.

The findings come from a research team led by William A. Carlezon Jr., PhD,
director of the behavioral genetics laboratory at McLean Hospital and associate
professor at Harvard Medical School. The study appears in the Dec. 15 issue of
Biological Psychiatry

"Rats exposed to Ritalin as juveniles showed large increases in
learned-helplessness behavior during adulthood, suggesting a tendency toward
depression," Carlezon says in a news release. "These rats also showed
abnormally high levels of activity in familiar environments. [This] might
reflect basic alterations in the way rats pay attention to their surroundings."

Ritalin, Cocaine, and the Brain

Ritalin and cocaine have different effects on humans.

** But their effects on the brain are very similar.***

When given to preteen rats, both drugs cause long-term changes in behavior.

One of the changes seems good. Early exposure to Ritalin makes rats less
responsive to the rewarding effects of cocaine. But that's not all good. It
might mean that the drug short-circuits the brain's reward system. That would
make it difficult to experience pleasure -- a "hallmark symptom of depression,"
Carlezon and colleagues note.

The other change seems all bad. Early exposure to Ritalin increases rats'
depressive-like responses in a stress test.

"These experiments suggest that preadolescent exposure to [Ritalin] in rats
causes numerous complex behavioral adaptations, each of which endures into
adulthood," Carlezon and colleagues conclude. "This work highlights the
importance of a more thorough understanding of the enduring neurobiological
effects of juvenile exposure to psychotropic drugs."

Those who drug their kids should have real concerns about these issues, rather
than dismiss them.

Jan

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: "Mark ProbertDecember 26, 2002" [email hidden]
Date: 12/26/2003 10:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertDecember 24, 2002" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > >Subject: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
> > >From: [email hidden] (soft-eng)
> > >Date: 12/24/2003 12:30 PM Central Standard Time
> > >Message-id: <[email hidden]>
> > >
> > >Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:
> > >
> >

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >
> > >drkoop.com is ahead of you guys on this one, already spinning
> > >the research as "dangers of misuse" and of using Ritalin
> > >for "recreation".
> > >
> > >http://drkoop.com/template.asp?page=newsdetail&ap=93&id=516487
> > >
> > >Come on folks, earn your keep. Can you come up
> > >with better spins than those already started?
> >
> > They have seen these kind of posts before, they will find a way to

trash
it,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > however they would never admit the truth. They are in favor of pushing
> drugs.
>
> I am in favor of pushing facts. The FACTS are simple...there is no proof
> that these studies are relevant to humans.

So much for your cover story about having kids on Ritalin!
[FYI, someone truly in that situation would be at least
a little worried, not flippant and quick on the defense.]

My son's treatment has been well documented for years. You do not have a
clue.

I have seen no long term adverse problems with him. He is attending school
on a fullscholarship (talent and hard work based), working part-time and
earning a substantial salary as his talent, creativeness and energy are
appreciatred, has lot's of friends, is self sufficient, and enjoys life.

Ins't it strang anecdotes don't count, unless it is Yours??

No stranger than that the fact that the above sentence comes from the
poster who often claims that ACTUAL EXPERIENCE is what counts, that
studies & research can't hold a candle to the value of "been there,
done that", & that those without real life experience WRT whatever
health concern is being discussed doesn't know squat about it. Yet it
now appears that Jan believes anecdotes only count if they're not
Mark's......😉

Michele
I ENJOY being a cranky [censored].

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right -- there's absolutely no way to know if this research
has any relevance at all to humans. Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

I was hoping that Softie would answer and I could ask Softie just that
question.

Softie seemed to be looking for an argument instead of rational discussion.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Mark Probert, David Wright, where have you been?
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 12/28/2003 12:12 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Showing the dangers of Ritalin brings out the best in the debunkers.

Quoted message said:

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right

No, he is making excuses. Rats and mice are used in reseach for a reason.

He

Quoted message said:

only uses this excuse for Ritalin.

-- there's absolutely no way to know if this research

Quoted message said:

has any relevance at all to humans.

Using rats and mice for research is unheard of. I guess all research

should

Quoted message said:

stop.

Quoted message said:

Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

Did you happen to notice this??

Jan, did you read the above paragraph, where the researchers themsevles
noted the limitation of their research. That is called H O N E S T Y in
research and is something you do not comprehend. The Alties never do such a
thing.

Regurgitation snipped.

"Mark ProbertDecember 27, 2002" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right -- there's absolutely no way to know if this research
has any relevance at all to humans. Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

I was hoping that Softie would answer and I could ask Softie just that
question.

Softie seemed to be looking for an argument instead of rational discussion.

An answer was posted to this -- while this is a sensible
position for the researchers, there is in fact a reason why rats
are used in so many lab studies. Rats are considered similar to
humans in many respects.

While this study is not the final answer, this is certainly
reason to take pause.

I just think drugs provide an "easy answer" to too many
parents. Some children can be hard to deal with, that's
just part of being a parent. AND of being a teacher.
Teachers and schools have been taking the easy way out
in pushing parents into medications. But juvenile
rebellion can be healthy, and in fact sign of a
highly creative (and therefore restless) mind.
It needs to be channeled, not excised.

Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertDecember 27, 2002" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
soft-eng <[email hidden]> wrote:
>Hey guys, I haven't seen any coverups starting on this yet:
>

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/78/95700.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_05

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Anonymous [censored],

Why are you trying to drag me into this? I've not been particularly
active on the whole Ritalin thing, unlike Mr. Probert. However, he's
perfectly right -- there's absolutely no way to know if this research
has any relevance at all to humans. Did you maybe happen to notice
this sentence from the article:

It's an open question whether what passes for depression in lab rats
has anything to do with depression in humans.

I was hoping that Softie would answer and I could ask Softie just that
question.

Softie seemed to be looking for an argument instead of rational

discussion.

Quoted message said:

An answer was posted to this -- while this is a sensible
position for the researchers, there is in fact a reason why rats
are used in so many lab studies. Rats are considered similar to
humans in many respects.

However, after doing some extensive reading,. I find no clear cut support
for the concept that they acvtually simulated depression in the rats.

Quoted message said:

While this study is not the final answer, this is certainly
reason to take pause.

All studies are. However,when there has been shown no connection to humans,
as in several notorious animal studies, then there needs to be some real
study on humans. So far,there is no human evidence of this effect.

Quoted message said:

I just think drugs provide an "easy answer" to too many
parents.

I am really tired of hearing this. It is utter [censored]. Parents of AD/HD
kids work at least twice as hard as those parents who do not have to deal
with AD/HD kids. And they do work at it. Medication is often the last
resort, after trying numerous useless remedies as they do not want to be
stigmatized by this [censored] line of yours, and they waste years of the kids
childhood which develops problems for the child. Medication benefits the
kids. Period.

Some children can be hard to deal with, that's

Quoted message said:

just part of being a parent. AND of being a teacher.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Teachers and schools have been taking the easy way out
in pushing parents into medications. But juvenile
rebellion can be healthy, and in fact sign of a
highly creative (and therefore restless) mind.
It needs to be channeled, not excised.

It is NOT juvenile rebellion, which is quite distinctive from AD/HD. by your
claiming this, I know that you do not even know the diagnostic protocol for
AD/HD nor the diagnostic standards.

Quoted message said:

Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

Yes, you are clueless about AD/HD or have an agenda that you are not
shairing.

"Mark ProbertJanuary 1, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

Yes, you are clueless about AD/HD or have an agenda that you are not
shairing.

Can you get it through your head that people may actually
believe that mindless pharmacological profiteering can really
destroy a society? In which case, assuming one doesn't want
the society to self-destruct, one has little choice but
to start sowing some doubts.

I actually do believe so-called ASD is for the most part
nothing but a profiteering-generated epidemic that's going to
have real impact in a generation or two. Fortunately,
girls haven't been impacted by this epidemic as much,
so they may have to take the full burden of running the
society, because the high-testoterene boys -- those that
would have normally run the society -- are out of the running,
having a tough task simply in keeping up because of
their neurological damage.

Having seen AD/HD kids, I do not personally agree that
it is a real disease in any way, shape or form. Mercury-impact
is, and some mercury-impacted kids may have been diagnosed
as AD/HD. Otherwise, AD/HD is simply a _psychological_ label.
Psychology is far from an exact science. Since drug sales
are involved, I see this as another one of profiteering-driven
labels. Kids vary in their mental makeups. Some are simply
more restless, and have short attention spans. This is not
a "disorder" but "normal variation". It may even be related to
high creativity. I know I was bored out of my skull during
school, and most of the time could never tell what the teacher
was saying if one asked me -- I had zero reason to focus attention
on the teacher. I also got into my share of trouble.
I am glad nobody was around to feed me Ritalin because of all
of that, and because of various companies' bottom lines.

But this is a personal observation, those who have bought
into the ease of Ritalin of course will have other observations.

A complicating factor is the tremendous "natural" parentage issue
in the US. My personal feeling is that natural parents will go
the extra mile before putting the kids in danger. Others
will be quick on the easy solution.

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 1, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

Yes, you are clueless about AD/HD or have an agenda that you are not
shairing.

Can you get it through your head that people may actually
believe that mindless pharmacological profiteering can really
destroy a society?

People believe all kinds of things. Some people believe the Earth is
flat.

Quoted message said:

In which case, assuming one doesn't want the society to
self-destruct, one has little choice but to start sowing some
doubts.

Well-informed doubts would better serve society, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

I actually do believe so-called ASD is for the most part
nothing but a profiteering-generated epidemic that's going to
have real impact in a generation or two.

See my remarks above about what people believe. For some reason, it
seems to help you to believe that there are no hyperactive kids, it's
just that all of their parents are incompetent, and if only you were
in charge, you'd put a stop to that right quick.

Quoted message said:

Having seen AD/HD kids, I do not personally agree that
it is a real disease in any way, shape or form. Mercury-impact
is, and some mercury-impacted kids may have been diagnosed
as AD/HD. Otherwise, AD/HD is simply a _psychological_ label.

So are depression and schizophrenia and paranoia. Do you feel that
these are just "normal variation" and should be ignored?

Quoted message said:

But this is a personal observation, those who have bought
into the ease of Ritalin of course will have other observations.

The "ease of Ritalin" is just another myth. It's not a miracle cure.

Quoted message said:

A complicating factor is the tremendous "natural" parentage issue
in the US. My personal feeling is that natural parents will go
the extra mile before putting the kids in danger. Others
will be quick on the easy solution.

God, it is just *so* easy for the uninvolved, like you, to dismiss
ADHD as simply due to lazy parents. It would be amusing to stick you
in their situation and watch you fail to remedy the situation in spite
of your enormous moral superiority.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 1, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote

in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

Yes, you are clueless about AD/HD or have an agenda that you are not
shairing.

Can you get it through your head that people may actually
believe that mindless pharmacological profiteering can really
destroy a society?

If that were occurring I would be concerned. However, since it is not
occurring, except in the "minds" of the utterly clueles, it is of no
concern. IOW, you are worried about something that does not exist. Some
would call it paranoia. I call it utter stupidity, as the former is a
diagnosis, and I am not qualified to diagnose, but, I am qualified to
determine stupidity.

In which case, assuming one doesn't want

Quoted message said:

the society to self-destruct, one has little choice but
to start sowing some doubts.

Said doubts being called red herrings.

Quoted message said:

I actually do believe so-called ASD is for the most part
nothing but a profiteering-generated epidemic that's going to
have real impact in a generation or two. Fortunately,
girls haven't been impacted by this epidemic as much,
so they may have to take the full burden of running the
society, because the high-testoterene boys -- those that
would have normally run the society -- are out of the running,
having a tough task simply in keeping up because of
their neurological damage.

Having seen AD/HD kids, I do not personally agree that
it is a real disease in any way, shape or form.

Havce you lived with them? Have you seen to struggles they go through just
to fit in to a small degree? Do you se the social tortures they suffer?

I have.

My son was ostracized, tormented, harrassed, etc because of his differences.
One of his principal torturers just died this week after a seven year battle
with leukemia. Normally, I fell horridly sad when a child dies. In this
case, considering what he did to my son, I feel empty, but, in no way sad.

Mercury-impact

Quoted message said:

is, and some mercury-impacted kids may have been diagnosed
as AD/HD. Otherwise, AD/HD is simply a _psychological_ label.

Horseshit. There is a quickly growing body of evidence showing the
physiological differences in the AD/HD brain.

Quoted message said:

Psychology is far from an exact science. Since drug sales
are involved, I see this as another one of profiteering-driven
labels.

See above re my opinion wrt this line of [censored].

Quoted message said:

Kids vary in their mental makeups. Some are simply
more restless, and have short attention spans. This is not
a "disorder" but "normal variation".

Hogwash. The lack of ability to focus attention in AD/HD is way out of the
area of normal variation.

Quoted message said:

It may even be related to
high creativity.

My son is highly creative, medicated or not. It is irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

I know I was bored out of my skull during
school,

Probably due to the lack of a good whacko conspiracy theory.

Quoted message said:

and most of the time could never tell what the teacher
was saying if one asked me -- I had zero reason to focus attention
on the teacher. I also got into my share of trouble.
I am glad nobody was around to feed me Ritalin because of all
of that, and because of various companies' bottom lines.

Again, horseshit.

Quoted message said:

But this is a personal observation, those who have bought
into the ease of Ritalin of course will have other observations.
A complicating factor is the tremendous "natural" parentage issue
in the US. My personal feeling is that natural parents will go
the extra mile before putting the kids in danger. Others
will be quick on the easy solution.

Again, and for the last time, it is not easy, and, those who make that claim
are [censored], IMNSHO.

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

soft-eng said:

"Mark ProbertJanuary 1, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

> Native Americans had a "Ritalin" too. It was a drug
> they gave to troublesome kids. They probably gave it to
> the one who would have invented the wheel -- no doubt
> the kid was way too unruly. (The stupid kid kept
> talking about this "round thing" that would make pulling
> things easier, just wouldn't keep shut and do
> as others did. Well, the "Ritalin" took care of him.)

Yes, you are clueless about AD/HD or have an agenda that you are not
shairing.

Can you get it through your head that people may actually
believe that mindless pharmacological profiteering can really
destroy a society?

People believe all kinds of things. Some people believe the Earth is
flat.

Quoted message said:

In which case, assuming one doesn't want the society to
self-destruct, one has little choice but to start sowing some
doubts.

Well-informed doubts would better serve society, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

I actually do believe so-called ASD is for the most part
nothing but a profiteering-generated epidemic that's going to
have real impact in a generation or two.

See my remarks above about what people believe. For some reason, it
seems to help you to believe that there are no hyperactive kids, it's
just that all of their parents are incompetent, and if only you were
in charge, you'd put a stop to that right quick.

Quoted message said:

Having seen AD/HD kids, I do not personally agree that
it is a real disease in any way, shape or form. Mercury-impact
is, and some mercury-impacted kids may have been diagnosed
as AD/HD. Otherwise, AD/HD is simply a _psychological_ label.

So are depression and schizophrenia and paranoia. Do you feel that
these are just "normal variation" and should be ignored?

Quoted message said:

But this is a personal observation, those who have bought
into the ease of Ritalin of course will have other observations.

The "ease of Ritalin" is just another myth. It's not a miracle cure.

Quoted message said:

A complicating factor is the tremendous "natural" parentage issue
in the US. My personal feeling is that natural parents will go
the extra mile before putting the kids in danger. Others
will be quick on the easy solution.

God, it is just *so* easy for the uninvolved, like you, to dismiss
ADHD as simply due to lazy parents. It would be amusing to stick you
in their situation and watch you fail to remedy the situation in spite
of your enormous moral superiority.

Well said, David.

It is jerks like Softie who really [censored] me off.

[email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having seen AD/HD kids, I do not personally agree that
it is a real disease in any way, shape or form. Mercury-impact
is, and some mercury-impacted kids may have been diagnosed
as AD/HD. Otherwise, AD/HD is simply a _psychological_ label.

So are depression and schizophrenia and paranoia. Do you feel that
these are just "normal variation" and should be ignored?

Like I said, psychology is not an exact science. It's at
the level of medical sciences of a few centuries ago.
Did they have some remedies that worked? Yes, definitely.
Were all their remedies and theories valid? Not at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But this is a personal observation, those who have bought
into the ease of Ritalin of course will have other observations.

The "ease of Ritalin" is just another myth. It's not a miracle cure.

Now you are being disingenuous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A complicating factor is the tremendous "natural" parentage issue
in the US. My personal feeling is that natural parents will go
the extra mile before putting the kids in danger. Others
will be quick on the easy solution.

God, it is just *so* easy for the uninvolved, like you, to dismiss
ADHD as simply due to lazy parents. It would be amusing to stick you
in their situation and watch you fail to remedy the situation in spite
of your enormous moral superiority.

If you had read earlier messages, you would have noticed
I have my own share of burdens. But yes, I do feel it is
superior to actually think about the issues rather than just
take authority-viewpoint as the final truth. In fact, I think
that's true for all endeavors of life. Authority-repetitioners
do not significantly advance knowledge. Questioners do.
That's always been the case. Always will be.