Manzano: ‘Testosterone effects almost immediate'

Ahh dammit now I know what happened! Landis got a massage after stage 16 and got the patch on his balls like every day. He then went to the terrace for a few drinks because the patch had to be on for two hours anyway. He then went back to the hotel, drank even more and forgot about the patch and fell a sleep. The patch stayed on the entire night! In the morning, it just fell off in the shower and Landis thought: Boy am I feeling good today! WHROOOAAA! Then he won the stage and tested positive.

i personally know a couple people who have taken suspension and they've said the results are very, very fast, like a few days. they were all using it for getting big though; i don't know any endurance athletes who've used it.

boing.....

Now all those woman hormones make sense, to mask the testosterone or something to that effect.

With all of the products Manzano was using how would he know the specific affect in one day of one product? I am not saying he is lying I just don't see how he can pick one thing out and be so specific. A guy did an article where he doped in Outside magazine and does not see the same affects.

House said:

With all of the products Manzano was using how would he know the specific affect in one day of one product? I am not saying he is lying I just don't see how he can pick one thing out and be so specific. A guy did an article where he doped in Outside magazine and does not see the same affects.

But the guy in Outside, he did it, right? He did dope with testosterone? Why is it not believeable that Landis might have done the same?

karlotta said:

But the guy in Outside, he did it, right? He did dope with testosterone? Why is it not believeable that Landis might have done the same?

Where did I say he did not do it? I have never said that. I was merely pointing out that Manzano was doing such a cocktail of dope that how could he know what one specific drug was doing in one day.

House said:

Where did I say he did not do it? I have never said that. I was merely pointing out that Manzano was doing such a cocktail of dope that how could he know what one specific drug was doing in one day.

It appeared that you were offering counter-evidence that testosterone usage is effective, by citing the guy in Outside magazine who had used but found no value in it. My point was simply, fine... but he used nonetheless.

One thing I've seen in a couple of articles relating to testosterone doping is that some doctors feel it's useful simply for the placebo effect. If they're taking it and know they're on it, they do better. Wish I could find those articles again.

Sorry for any confusion. I have a feeling, that if instead of typing responses to one another, if we were all round a table, with a pitcher of beer (or whatever you like) and just talking, that we might still disagree on things, but the result would be much more like a conversation and less like a [censored] for tat.

karlotta said:

It appeared that you were offering counter-evidence that testosterone usage is effective, by citing the guy in Outside magazine who had used but found no value in it. My point was simply, fine... but he used nonetheless.

One thing I've seen in a couple of articles relating to testosterone doping is that some doctors feel it's useful simply for the placebo effect. If they're taking it and know they're on it, they do better. Wish I could find those articles again.

Sorry for any confusion. I have a feeling, that if instead of typing responses to one another, if we were all round a table, with a pitcher of beer (or whatever you like) and just talking, that we might still disagree on things, but the result would be much more like a conversation and less like a [censored] for tat.

Not a problem I am just used to some "everybody dopes" "I hate Lance" and "I hate Americans" posters who will turn anything around into whatever fits their point of view and will do and say anything to downplay anything else. I have no reason to argue for against Testosterone besides to give what facts I have seen, ask for more and provide an opinion. Personally I'd like to hear your opinion on what I said about Manzano's claim.

I seem to recall that during the BALCO case 'Mexican beans' were mentioned, which were testosterone tablets taken in competition by athletes for a sudden burst of short-term energy. Presumably these were availeble to Manzano et al.

House said:

Not a problem I am just used to some "everybody dopes" "I hate Lance" and "I hate Americans" posters who will turn anything around into whatever fits their point of view and will do and say anything to downplay anything else. I have no reason to argue for against Testosterone besides to give what facts I have seen, ask for more and provide an opinion. Personally I'd like to hear your opinion on what I said about Manzano's claim.

Hmmm. I don't know much about the details of Manzano's 2003? claims... was it homologous blood transfusion-based? I know he talked about the actovegin (the same stuff that the french press claimed to have found in a USPS trashbin)... nandrolene/andro ... (testosterone basically), cortisone injections and I think something that was supposed to increase hemaglobin without raising the all-critical hematocrit. He got death threats supposedly for speaking out, I think.

As to whether he could speak to the benefit of testosterone... I'd have to ask him how he knows that the benefit was related to that.

The point I am making is that he is making claims about testosterone (the point of this thread) but how can he be sure with as much jusk as he claims to have been using. To put it simply, if you were taking advil, aleve, tylenol and aspirin at the same time how would you know what relieved your headache?

House said:

The point I am making is that he is making claims about testosterone (the point of this thread) but how can he be sure with as much jusk as he claims to have been using. To put it simply, if you were taking advil, aleve, tylenol and aspirin at the same time how would you know what relieved your headache?

Yes, I understand what you've implied. I don't know. I don't think that performance-enhancement in cycling is as simple as a headache. I imagine that Testosterone does something different to EPO, and something different to Cortisone. Some would work on recovery, some would work on endurance, some would work on bursts of power...

This is why I suggested that we'd need more information from Manzano about what he meant by saying that the effects were felt almost immediately.

karlotta said:

Yes, I understand what you've implied. I don't know. I don't think that performance-enhancement in cycling is as simple as a headache. I imagine that Testosterone does something different to EPO, and something different to Cortisone. Some would work on recovery, some would work on endurance, some would work on bursts of power...

This is why I suggested that we'd need more information from Manzano about what he meant by saying that the effects were felt almost immediately.

I think we would actually need info from scientific studies, not from someone doped to the gills with a cocktail of drugs.

House said:

I think we would actually need info from scientific studies, not from someone doped to the gills with a cocktail of drugs.

[font=Verdana]You're right... we don't need a former professional cyclist who has used testosterone to tell us the effects of the drug on performance we need you to tell us all how it is.... so go for it... the floor is yours... how do you know so much about testosterone and its effects of cycling endurance ?[/font]

JohnDDD said:

Ahh dammit now I know what happened! Landis got a massage after stage 16 and got the patch on his balls like every day. He then went to the terrace for a few drinks because the patch had to be on for two hours anyway. He then went back to the hotel, drank even more and forgot about the patch and fell a sleep. The patch stayed on the entire night! In the morning, it just fell off in the shower and Landis thought: Boy am I feeling good today! WHROOOAAA! Then he won the stage and tested positive.

Funny.

House said:

I think we would actually need info from scientific studies, not from someone doped to the gills with a cocktail of drugs.

I think both could be useful. What we have here is the testimony of someone who actually experienced the drugs in question. We don't know what his prior experience with testosterone was. Which is why I was saying I'd like to find out more about this experience. For example, what exactly was his experience with the testosterone? Did he have experience with it before he began blood doping? Or was it one program that was undertaken. I'd ask him what if anything his doctors or soigneurs said to him about the testosterone.

At any rate, I'm still looking for the articles about the placebo effect and how some cyclists still feel "preparing" with testosterone is effective... in that search I found another article that does suggest that there are short-term benefits to performance and recovery with testosterone, but not anywhere near "almost immediate". Here's that link

newscientist.comarticle.nsOpen ↗

There's a good summary of testosterone research in there too. And some suggestions for improving testing results and accuracy which seem reasonable (following riders for a long-term to get an idea of how test/epitest works in their systems... ie creating more of an understanding of the baselines).

First I want to thank you for having an intelligent, adult discussion. Much nicer then dealing with some of the BS people and posts I have dealt with the last two days. Thank you.

Interesting article, though it seems to be contrary to the large majority of studies on testosteron, but it does give a counter viewpoint.

With Manzano I just don't think you can pick one specific drugs affect out of a number of drugs and say this is how it works, which is what he is doing. As I said I am not saying he is lying, but that what he thinks may be very different then what occured because of the other drugs.

Thank you too... I am trying to atone for appearing to have made up my mind... whatever that counts for - our opinions don't really matter, but I do think that it's important to realize that doping is a serious problem in all of sport, not just cycling, and that the current situation is perplexing and far from ideal. Testing seems to be all we have now... and we cannot even test for the things that may matter the most, such as autologous transfer... though I did hear somewhere that they are working on ways to determine if blood withdrawn from humans for testing purposes shows markers for having been refrigerated... weird huh?

I have no idea about Manzano. It's another piece of information. I don't think it weighs all that heavily in anyone's scale of justice, if you know what I mean.

JohnDDD said:

Ahh dammit now I know what happened! Landis got a massage after stage 16 and got the patch on his balls like every day. He then went to the terrace for a few drinks because the patch had to be on for two hours anyway. He then went back to the hotel, drank even more and forgot about the patch and fell a sleep. The patch stayed on the entire night! In the morning, it just fell off in the shower and Landis thought: Boy am I feeling good today! WHROOOAAA! Then he won the stage and tested positive.

Good one!😄

House said:

I think we would actually need info from scientific studies, not from someone doped to the gills with a cocktail of drugs.

He didn`t dope for a week but for a lot longer period of time so he probably didn`t mix everything together every time! Yes, everyone need official info of Flandis` case but what Manzano said about testosterone effects is very interesting.