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UK and Europe
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27 January 2003
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Just Zis Guy
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  1. you know? said:

    On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:08:38 +0000, Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Try reading with more of an open mind. I promise it all makes perfect sense.

    Quoted message said:

    Strange. Those who agree with stronger sentences (especially bans) appear mostly to be those who
    both drive and cycle. Very few people around here who cycle exclusively. Those who believe the
    present sentences are fine mainly apear to drive only and not cycle. Yet it's the ones who do both
    who need the open minds.

    You're misquoting me again. I don't think the end result of the sentences are fine. I think the low
    standards of driving lead to the low sentences. So we don't need to mess with sentencing, just
    standards of driving.

    Quoted message said:

    I have already said I think any ban should be followed by an extended retest and the use of
    compulsory training should also be the norm. You appear to be tap-dancing around the issue by
    denying that the sentencing regime sends any message to drivers. It may be that bans send a weak
    message, but derisory fines send a very strong one: that killing vulnerable road users is just one
    of those things.

    Quoted message said:

    Actually I believe you're making it worse, no doubt unintentionally, by campaigning against speed
    enforcement, because these penalties are of the same order of magnitude as the penalties in the
    speeding convictions about which you (and the ABD and others) are busily stoking up righteous
    indignation.

    I just want policies that work.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  2. James Annan said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And in English, what does that mean in the context of drivers giving lamp posts a bigger berth
    than they give people? What `risk assessments' do you believe they making, mistaken or otherwise?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I honestly don't know.

    Quoted message said:

    Wow. Well that may be a small step for man, but it's a giant leap for Paul Smith. Since you don't
    know, why do you dismiss as `pure fantasy' the obvious and straightforward suggestion that has
    already been put forward: that the drivers give the most space to whatever poses the greatest
    threat to them?

    Because I've observed a lot of drivers and I see something different of course.

    The my risk / your risk value judgement you imagine simply does not exist. Hell it's hard enough to
    get them to recognise a risk at all, let alone subclassify it. (possibly with the exception of a few
    criminal boy racers)

    If they see a risk they DO avoid it. It doesn't matter whose risk it
    is. When they don't see the risk things go badly wrong. This happens too often, but less here than
    in any other country.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  3. you know? said:
    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one around here who has actually studied road driving?

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps you're the only one around here who has not actually experienced road cycling?

    I've done tons of road cycling, but many years ago, when the road were about twice as dangerous
    actually, and in London.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  4. Tony W said:

    No reply from Mr Smith of Scotland, UK.

    Quoted message said:

    Strange!!

    I never saw the message for some reason. It is here and I'll reply now.

    I'm going away for ten days at lunch time and won't have newsgroup access.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  5. Tony W said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Fanciful? No. Happened to me about six years ago.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm not at all surprised by your story.

    Quoted message said:

    Sadly it is but the worst of many such incidents.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But as usual it's all down to risk perception errors. Of course the oncoming van is seen as a
    bigger risk. It's bigger. That's the level of simplicity of the judgement that many driver make.

    Quoted message said:

    It was also a direct risk to the driver's own survival -- as such it is understandable that he
    ignored the minor inconvenience (aka lesser danger) -- me.

    You might think it understandable, but that's not how it works.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But you could have avoided your accident by braking hard as soon as you realised that the
    overtaking car was relying on the non-appearence of oncoming traffic. Then when the overtaker had
    to swing left you would have been behind.

    Quoted message said:

    Given the circumstances -- at which I was present and you were not -- I expect that there was more
    I could have done to reduce the risk to myself. Probably, I too, reacted to the primary risk at
    each point of the incident. I do not believe braking hard would have made that much diffeernce --
    but I cnanot swear to that. However, I do dismiss it as another Smith broad generalisation based on
    inadequate knowledge.

    You gave a reasonable description. I quote:

    "Driver starts to overtake a cyclist on a blind, right hand bend. Initially pulling out sufficiently
    to avoid the cyclist - but, in doing so reducing his view round the bend and placing himself in
    increased risk of traffic coming in the opposite direction.

    The driver has perceived the immediate 'risk' - the cyclist - but has ignored the potential risk -
    the van coming in the opposite direction."

    At this point you are as well equipped as the driver to recognise the potential danger. You would
    not have had to think hard to realise that oncoming traffic appearing would force the overtaker left
    into your space. You could have pre-empted the risk by stopping to allow space for the daft
    overtaker to pull left.

    Quoted message said:

    The 'solution' I adopted after this incident was to be MUCH more agressive in cycling round this
    bend -- pulling 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way out into MY lane (i.e. the only lane going in that
    direction) so giving drivers a MUCH starker choice if they wanted to overtake. This resulted in
    frequent hooting and significant abuse -- but tough [censored].

    After the event. That's OK, but getting a good solution first time would have been better.

    Quoted message said:

    The problems with this approach were 1) I reduced my view round the bend and
    2) I needed to tapper my move across the lane to maintain my visibility to following traffic and so
    avoid becoming road kill as some stupid sod roarded round the bend at stupid speeds. From this
    you may estimate that, while driving is hard, cycling can require even more thought and skill --
    and, sadly, there is no (as far as I am aware) Instute of Advanced Cyclists with nice people to
    train you in survival strategies. See -- motorists have it easy!!

    No one has it easy. We must all take proper responsibility for our own safety.

    If you think there should be a groups of advanced cyclists, then start one. I think it's an
    excellent idea.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As I said, no cyclist is so stable -- all of the time.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yeah. That's what I said too.

    Quoted message said:

    Please point to the place where you said this because I have re-read your post and do not see it. I
    accept your 'perfect' cyclist is an abstraction -- but you never actually say so -- rather
    describing him as if he exists.

    Yawn...

    Quoting myself:

    "As far as cyclists and close passing are concerned, most drivers recognise the dangers and pass
    wide enough. Those that don't simply didn't anticipate the risks properly. And anticipation is
    absolutely required, one could pass a non-wobbling, non-deviating, unaffected by slipstream cyclist
    safely with a foot or so to spare. Recognising that cyclists have none of these quality is a
    function of driver anticipation."

    That last sentence does the job. Shame I wrote "quality" rather than "qualities"

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You presume that removing the right to drive limits a persons freedom of movement. There are
    many other available forms of transport and something over 25% of all households (thouse
    wiothout cars) make use of them.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't. You agreed with me.

    Quoted message said:

    At the risk of entering a Did/Didn't arguement -- No I din't.

    Yawn. Quoting self again:

    "Driving well isn't easy, yet we allow all sorts of folk to drive. Most people consider that the
    risks of allowing the dumbest to drive are outweighed by permitting the population the freedom of
    movement that driving allows. Personally I'd rather see the worst 10% permanently excluded from the
    roads, but I don't rate that as likely."

    That last sentence. (and that I said "most people consider..."😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I think standards are too low too. But I don't think it's sensible to claim that you "study
    driving" from behind the wheel. If it were true then we would have something like 30,000,000
    experts, but we have very few, probably less than 10,000.

    Quoted message said:

    30 million consider themselves experts -- which is a major part of the problem. To be as non
    contentious as possible here let me substitute 'observe' for 'study' in my last reply -- but point
    out that I do 'observe' from more than one viewpoint.

    Quoted message said:

    It is gross arrogance to claim that your 'study' is inherently better than anyone else's
    'observation'.

    No it isn't. I've been specifically studying and researching for many years. It's just fact.

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe you have, indeed, 'studied' driving -- but you still manage to put forward some stupid ideas.

    That's because you don't understand... And this message shows very clearly that your comprehension
    is seriously [censored].
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  6. Tim Woodall said:

    On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:49:51 +0000, Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    <snip type="out of office">

    Quoted message said:

    While I haven't attempted to look, are you sure your address isn't readily obtainable? Posting
    things like this to a public newsgroup is almost as sensible as putting a "Hi, I'm in India for the
    next four weeks" out of office reply on your email. (Some enlightened companies do not allow "out
    of office" replies to go outside the company network (and forward them to someone who can deal with
    them) but most do not :-( )

    Sure. But there will be other folk here.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  7. Paul Smith said:
    you know? said:
    Quoted message said:

    >85% of drivers apparently believe they are above average

    At least that's only 35% who have got it wrong (maybe).


    Quoted message said:

    The observation that 85% of drivers think they are above average is consistent with 100% of
    drivers overestimating their skills.

    Highly improbable. Not impossible.

    One of these such surveys I saw had a category for `about average', so assuming it was something
    sensible like division into rough thirds (below/average/above) then at least 50% are wrong. Also
    note the posted evidence from a survey of people who had just crashed!

    James

  8. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote

    I can only imagine one way to improve it, and that's driver

    Quoted message said:

    training.

    Wrong again. I suppose your answer to reduce the incidence of murder by gun-toting hoodlums is more
    education about the danger of guns.

    An element of ongoing training may be relevant. How about retaking your driving test every ten
    years? I don't think many members of the public would support that and, in its absence, the way the
    system works is that drivers are under an obligation to maintain their driving standards and are
    motivated to do so by legal penalties for failure to do so (as well as the financial ones inherent
    with damaging their vehicles).

  9. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote

    All

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    drivers are taught that overtaking cyclists is a riskier manoeuvre than


    many

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    others and that lots of space needs to be left.

    And if they don't happen to remember that particular piece of info, then they are careless. That's
    what happened in the recently discussed case.

    No, they're stupid and dangerous.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If driving standards were higher then her


    failing would become CDBDD and we'd all be happy.

    No, if the legal system worked as it should then her failing would become CDBDD and we'd all be
    happy. Except you, probably. It seems that you don't like laws very much, particularly sensible ones
    that limit drivers' speed!

  10. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ahh!! More wisdom from Smith.

    Quoted message said:

    It's just the quality of driver's risk assessment. Whenever they see a hazard they recognise as
    dangerous (and I mean dangerous to anyone) they give it a wide berth.

    In general, yes.

    Quoted message said:

    If they don't perceive the risk they don't bother to give a wide berth. There's no logical reason
    they should. It's the quality of risk assessment that needs improving.

    Again, yes. But we have to cope with the terminally stupid.

    Quoted message said:

    The thing about "softer targets" or "risk to others" simply isn't true. Any risk will do, but it
    has to be recognised as such.

    No - and I give you an example. Driver starts to overtake a cyclist on a blind, right hand bend.
    Initially pulling out sufficiently to avoid the cyclist - but, in doing so reducing his view round
    the bend and placing himself in increased risk of traffic coming in the opposite direction.

    The driver has percieved the immediate 'risk' - the cyclist - but has ignored the potential risk -
    the van coming in the opposite direction.

    Now said van is coming in the opposite direction. The cyclist sees it and
    1) pulls in to increase the following drivers available space (knowing exactly what is comming) and
    2) attempts to indicate to the following driver to stay back (the famous Smith signal 'understood
    by most drivers - but not thisone).

    Driver suddenly sees the oncoming van (white, and obviously travelling too fast itself so taking a
    wide line).

    The VAN is now the immediate perceived risk. The cyclist is either forgotten or ignored. The car
    pulls over to the left leaving nowhere to go but the bank (no- not one that you get money from).

    Van & car vanish into their various distances. Cyclist picks himself from the nettles, briars and
    other stuff - checking spectacles, testicles, wallet and watch - plus all limbs and his bike.

    Swears an evil oath, praises any passing deity for salvation, climbs gingerly back on his bike,
    aborts ride and wobbles the 2 miles back back home t change his trousers, dress his wounds and
    recover his composure.

    Fanciful? No. Happened to me about six years ago.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as cyclists and close passing are concerned, most drivers recognise the dangers and pass
    wide enough.

    Yes

    Quoted message said:

    Those that don't simply didn't anticipate the risks properly.

    No, those that don't are a danger to other road users and should be removed from the roads.

    Quoted message said:

    And anticipation is absolutely required, one could pass a non-wobbling, non-deviating, unaffected
    by slipstream cyclist safely with a foot or so to spare.

    No cyclist is so wobble proof. Did the driver also scan the road ahead to check for pot holes,
    small children on the pavement, gusts of wind etc. that might have caused even the most stable
    cyclist to wobble.

    Quoted message said:

    Recognising that cyclists have none of these quality is a function of driver anticipation.

    As I said, no cyclist is so stable -- all of the time.

    Quoted message said:


    Waving your brolly around looks like a risk, even to the worst, and I'm not surprised.

    Driving well isn't easy, yet we allow all sorts of folk to drive. Most people consider that the
    risks of allowing the dumbest to drive are outweighed by permitting the population the freedom of
    movement that driving allows. Personally I'd rather see the worst 10% permanently excluded from
    the roads, but I don't rate that as likely.

    You presume that removing the right to drive limits a persons freedom of movement. There are many
    other available forms of transport and something over 25% of all households (thouse wiothout cars)
    make use of them.

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one around here who has actually studied road driving?

    No, most of us do it daily -- from behind the wheel and / or the handlebars. I tell you, the
    standards are dire.

    T

  11. Paul Smith said:
    (James Annan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Drivers routinely give lamp-posts more clearance than they give me when they drive past (usually
    >when I'm walking). What excuse can you dream up for them?

    Quoted message said:

    It's just the quality of driver's risk assessment. Whenever they see a hazard they recognise as
    dangerous (and I mean dangerous to anyone) they give it a wide berth.

    If they don't perceive the risk they don't bother to give a wide berth. There's no logical reason
    they should. It's the quality of risk assessment that needs improving.

    The thing about "softer targets" or "risk to others" simply isn't true. Any risk will do, but it
    has to be recognised as such.

    So you think that hitting the lamp-post is recognized as a risk, but hitting the pedestrian isn't.
    I'm not sure what subtle distinction you are trying to make here - it sounds very similar to the
    statement you objected to.

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps I'm the only one around here who has actually studied road driving?

    It's one possibility. Can you think of any others?

    James

  12. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote > But you could have avoided your accident by
    braking hard as soon as

    Quoted message said:

    you realised that the overtaking car was relying on the non-appearence of oncoming traffic. Then
    when the overtaker had to swing left you would have been behind.

    Perhaps, and there are many cyclists who might have the presence of mind to do this if circumstances
    allow. It still doesn't stop the driver being an inconsiderate, irresponsible, dangerous (note: I
    haven't said inattentive because this is a conscious manoeuvre) p*ll*ck who deserves the full weight
    of the law to drop on him or her from a great height.

    Self-preservation ensures that cyclists often "help out" drivers in these dangerous situations.

  13. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote > Yeah. Cyclists are scared witless by bad driving
    to the extent of

    Quoted message said:

    paranoia in the interests of self preservation.
    --

    I just can't understand you. Your comments always seem so contradictory. Here you seem to
    acknowledge that there are a lot of bad drivers. Elsewhere you seem to waste your time trying to
    prove that one particular driver or another wasn't bad because a cyclist failed to brake (in your
    opinion) or was a victim of poor training or had some other lame excuse. Why not accept that there
    are bad drivers and that they should be penalised for it? You should be agreeing with many of the
    arguments here for stricter sentencing etc. because this would remove dangerous drivers from the
    road and incentivise everyone to drive better. That may aid your argument for higher speeds.

    Stop wasting your time on this news group, get back to uk.transport where you belong and get back to
    lobbying your MP, the Ministry etc for what you believe in.

  14. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Hmmm, and how is the "full weight of the law" going to make him smarter next time? Send him for
    training... that might make a difference.

    Banning him will make it make it safer for others, that's the main point. And, if you look back at
    my previous posts, you'll see that I favour retraining and retesting too.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Self-preservation ensures that cyclists often "help out" drivers in these dangerous situations.

    Not cyclists... All good road users, however many wheels or engines they might have.

    Yes, but that doesn't mean they should be forced to by dangerous drivers, does it?

    Quoted message said:

    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's
    make speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  15. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Fanciful? No. Happened to me about six years ago.

    I'm not at all surprised by your story.

    Sadly it is but the worst of many such incidents.

    Quoted message said:

    But as usual it's all down to risk perception errors. Of course the oncoming van is seen as a
    bigger risk. It's bigger. That's the level of simplicity of the judgement that many driver make.

    It was also a direct risk to the driver's own survival -- as such it is understandable that he
    ignored the minor inconvenience (aka lesser danger) -- me.

    Quoted message said:

    But you could have avoided your accident by braking hard as soon as you realised that the
    overtaking car was relying on the non-appearence of oncoming traffic. Then when the overtaker had
    to swing left you would have been behind.

    Given the circumstances -- at which I was present and you were not -- I expect that there was more I
    could have done to reduce the risk to myself. Probably, I too, reacted to the primary risk at each
    point of the incident. I do not believe braking hard would have made that much diffeernce -- but I
    cnanot swear to that. However, I do dismiss it as another Smith broad generalisation based on
    inadequate knowledge.

    The 'solution' I adopted after this incident was to be MUCH more agressive in cycling round this
    bend -- pulling 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way out into MY lane (i.e. the only lane going in that
    direction) so giving drivers a MUCH starker choice if they wanted to overtake. This resulted in
    frequent hooting and significant abuse -- but tough [censored].

    The problems with this approach were 1) I reduced my view round the bend and
    2) I needed to tapper my move across the lane to maintain my visibility to following traffic and so
    avoid becoming road kill as some stupid sod roarded round the bend at stupid speeds. From this
    you may estimate that, while driving is hard, cycling can require even more thought and skill --
    and, sadly, there is no (as far as I am aware) Instute of Advanced Cyclists with nice people to
    train you in survival strategies. See -- motorists have it easy!!

    snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As I said, no cyclist is so stable -- all of the time.

    Yeah. That's what I said too.

    Please point to the place where you said this because I have re-read your post and do not see it. I
    accept your 'perfect' cyclist is an abstraction -- but you never actually say so -- rather
    describing him as if he exists.

    Quoted message said:


    snip

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    You presume that removing the right to drive limits a persons freedom of movement. There are many
    other available forms of transport and


    something

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    over 25% of all households (thouse wiothout cars) make use of them.

    I don't. You agreed with me.

    At the risk of entering a Did/Didn't arguement -- No I din't.

    Quoted message said:

    I think standards are too low too. But I don't think it's sensible to claim that you "study
    driving" from behind the wheel. If it were true then we would have something like 30,000,000
    experts, but we have very few, probably less than 10,000.

    30 million consider themselves experts -- which is a major part of the problem. To be as non
    contentious as possible here let me substitute 'observe' for 'study' in my last reply -- but point
    out that I do 'observe' from more than one viewpoint.

    It is gross arrogance to claim that your 'study' is inherently better than anyone else's
    'observation'.

    Maybe you have, indeed, 'studied' driving -- but you still manage to put forward some stupid ideas.

    T

  16. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah. Cyclists are scared witless by bad driving to the extent of paranoia in the interests of
    self preservation.

    If drivers follow your advice cyclists will, finally, be scared off of the roads and you will
    have removed a major inconvenience for all drivers. Paul Smith becomes an Honoury Life President
    of the RAC.

    Then Smith wakes up -- and finds he is still an idiot.

    T

  17. Paul Smith said:

    There's no subtle distinction. The only relevant things beyond the driver's risk assessment are
    the direct and indirect consequences of that risk assessment.

    And in English, what does that mean in the context of drivers giving lamp posts a bigger berth than
    they give people? What `risk assessments' do you believe they making, mistaken or otherwise?

    Quoted message said:

    I would expect it to be quite hard to find a driver who gave lamp posts a wider berth than
    pedestrians, but I don't doubt that they exist.

    As I've told you, they are common. This is on a rather narrow road, with both pedestrians and
    lamp-posts in the same carriageway with no pavement. No trick question, no sleight of hand, just
    wing-mirrors inches from the soft targets so that the nasty hard posts can be given a wide berth.

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah. Cyclists are scared witless by bad driving to the extent of paranoia in the interests of
    self preservation.

    If I was scared witless (or scared at all) I wouldn't cycle. Seems like you are more likely to be
    the one who is too scared to cycle, since you're the one who doesn't do it.

    James

  18. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    As far as my cycling is concerned, where I now live things are just too far apart to be able to
    consider cycling as a method of getting from a to b; it would simply take too long, not to mention
    that I'm mostly carrying bulky goods.

    Not all cycling is utilitarian -- indeed recent government figures suggest that, in rural areas,
    virtually none is any more. Try cycling for pleasure. It may teach you more about drivers and their
    ways than your extensive 'study' and it would take your mind off 'campaigns'.

    T

  19. Paul Smith said:
    James Annan said:

    And in English, what does that mean in the context of drivers giving lamp posts a bigger berth
    than they give people? What `risk assessments' do you believe they making, mistaken or otherwise?

    I honestly don't know.

    Wow. Well that may be a small step for man, but it's a giant leap for Paul Smith. Since you don't
    know, why do you dismiss as `pure fantasy' the obvious and straightforward suggestion that has
    already been put forward: that the drivers give the most space to whatever poses the greatest
    threat to them?

    James

  20. Paul Smith said:

    I'm going away for ten days at lunch time and won't have newsgroup access.

    It was a bit miserable when I cycled in this morning in the dark but the day seems to be panning out
    well, I think the rest of the week is going to be great too.

    Colin

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