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Manifesto

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UK and Europe
Published
27 January 2003
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27 January 2003
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Just Zis Guy
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  1. Peter B said:
    Quoted message said:

    What really happened in this case is that the lady driver failed to anticipate that the cyclist
    would wobble, collide, fall off and die. I can find nothing IN THE LAW that makes "failure to
    anticipate" dangerous. The law makes it that she carelessly ignored a Highway Code
    recommendation.

    Quoted message said:

    Whats the betting Paul that had she been faced with overtaking a tractor bouncing along on balloon
    tyres with a nasty agricultural implement sticking out that she would have allowed more room?

    Pretty good bet. But that's because the danger is easy to see. I don't see how your example helps.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  2. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    PDannyD said:

    Anyway, this is a cycling newsgroup so how about trebling the cost of


    fuel

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and tax disks? ;-)

    An obvious solution and I can't think how I missed it :-D

    It's the only way to secure the future for us all.

    Fat Cat business managers could ride Sociables with, say, 12 people pedalling in 2 rows of 6 (the
    Jaguar V12 equivalent) and pay each of the riders £10/hour (£120/hour in total). As the vehicle may
    be able to cruise at 30mph that would work out at £120 for 30 miles or £4/mile.

  3. Tony Raven said:
    Quoted message said:

    Then explain the difference in sentencing between common assault, ABH, GBH and manslaughter, all
    of which can result from precisely the same action and are entirely dependent on the degree of
    injury.

    Quoted message said:

    They are steadily rising levels of offence and the punishment rises with the severity of
    the offence

    But the offence with which you are charged is defined almost entirely by the severity of
    the outcome.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There but for the grace of God.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That is precisely the attitude which I would argue against. It ignores the fact that we owe a
    duty of care to other road users. It presumes that lapses of concentration and deciding to take
    risks which impact more on others than on ourselves os perfectly reasonable, and it's only bad
    luck when it ends in tears.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm pleased for you. I wish I could be perfect but I can only aspire to be like you and to have
    never made a mistake or misjudgement on the road.

    Not what I'm saying at all. I've made plenty of mistakes and misjudgements - the very fact that I
    know I'm not perfect makes me doubly cautious around vulnerable road users. Much of the problem
    stems from precisely the fact that people think they /are/ perfect, even though this is
    manifestly untrue.

    Quoted message said:

    it would not have helped in two close calls I had. Both involved unlit cyclists in dark clothing on
    unlit road and dark nights.

    Had you hit them you would almost certainly not have been charged with anything, and they would not
    have been able to claim much compensation
    - this is contributory negligence. Note the details of the manifesto: spot fines for no lights,
    for example, and no VAT on bicycle safety equipment. The proposed penalty is greatly in excess
    of the cost of compliance.

    Quoted message said:

    I luckily caught a glint off the metalwork of their bikes in both cases (one at a junction, one
    pulling away from the kerb with cyclist approaching from behind). I could oh so easily have been
    looking in another direction at the time the glint occurred. In both cases I would have been at
    fault if I had hit them.

    What if they had been a fallen tree? Whose fault would that be? Or maybe a stray animal? Or a
    pedestrian where there is no footpath? Or a broken down vehicle with a flat battery? At what point
    does it become your responsibility to avoid obstructions?

    Understand, I am probably more exasperated by stealth cyclists than you are. They represent a risk
    to your peace of mind, but their very existence contributes to the contempt with which cyclists are
    often treated by drivers, and as such it contributes to a reduction in my safety.

    Quoted message said:

    How would you have judged me if I had hit them?

    Exactly as if you had hit a fallen tree: no offence committed, civil liability to be decided on
    balance of probabilities as usual.

    Quoted message said:

    Was I taking a risk? I guess you get out of your car with a torch at every junction to check
    for unlit cyclists. I know you do take risks so at what level of risk does it become acceptable
    to take it?

    David Damerell made an excellent point earlier. The choice to endanger other is antisocial; the
    choice to endanger yourself is one that society typically tolerates you making. So I would not
    tolerate overtaking a cyclist so close you knock them off, but if you hit a stealth cyclist I would
    be very unlikely to think you had done anything wrong because failing to see someone who is trying
    their best to be invisible is not what I would call negligent.

    Guy
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  4. Paul Smith said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What really happened in this case is that the lady driver failed to anticipate that the cyclist
    would wobble, collide, fall off and die.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And who could possibly have predicted that it would happen? After all, there is nothing to
    indicate that this possibility exists other than a couple of rules in the Highway Code (and who
    reads that?) and a bit of common sense.

    Quoted message said:

    Any genuinely good driver would anticipate the risk and avoid going close enough to cause the
    problem. That's my point. We don't require drivers to be "good". The Highway Code anticipates the
    problem and advises a decent gap

    Which takes it out of the territory of behaviour exhibited only by a "good" driver and into the area
    which can be reasonably expected of a competent driver - a standard below which this driver clearly
    fell, as evidence the fact that she was convicted of an offence.

    We are, after all, required to demonstrate knowledge of the HC when we present ourselves for a
    driving test. There is no excuse for not knowing what it says about overtaking cyclists.

    Guy
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  5. Paul Smith said:
    Quoted message said:

    Whats the betting Paul that had she been faced with overtaking a tractor bouncing along on balloon
    tyres with a nasty agricultural implement sticking out that she would have allowed more room?

    Quoted message said:

    Pretty good bet. But that's because the danger is easy to see. I don't see how your example helps.

    Really? You haven't spotted that the whole argument is about drivers who take less care around
    vulnerable road users because they pose less risk to the drivers themselves?

    Guy
    ===
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  6. you know? said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Whats the betting Paul that had she been faced with overtaking a tractor bouncing along on
    balloon tyres with a nasty agricultural implement sticking out that she would have allowed
    more room?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Pretty good bet. But that's because the danger is easy to see. I don't see how your example helps.

    Quoted message said:

    Really? You haven't spotted that the whole argument is about drivers who take less care around
    vulnerable road users because they pose less risk to the drivers themselves?

    We want drivers who are better at spotting and avoiding potential dangers. Obvious examples of
    potential danger don't appear to lead us towards better perceptions of subtler (and possibly more
    deadly) dangers.

    Perhaps you think drivers don't care enough? I think drivers don't think enough. I can't imagine
    that this woman in the discussion would have passed the cyclist closely if she had foreseen the
    danger. That's a failure to think, not a failure to care.

    So I still don't see how the example helps.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  7. Paul Smith said:

    Absolutely. But such a transgression fits the class of "careless", not the class of "dangerous". We
    both wish it was recognised as dangerous.

    Pointless argument. She drove without due care, as a result of which she caused the death of
    someone. The crash was directly caused by her driving falling below the standard which can
    reasonably be expected of a competent driver. Given that it had fatal results, and a vulnerable road
    user was involved (hence she should take more care, not less) a ban seems to me entirely
    appropriate. If it doesn't appear appropriate to you obviously I can't persuade you otherwise (or I
    would have by now) but don't expect me, as someone who actually experiences the way drivers behave
    around vulnerable road users, to agree. And don't expect me to stop lobbying for change, either.

    Guy
    ===
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  8. Paul Smith said:

    I still don't see how the example helps.

    It helps because it shows the fact taht drivers react to perceived risk to themselves, not known
    risk to others. This supports one of your pet points, risk compensation. Only in this case the
    driver compensates for the risk being placed on other people by deciding that it's therefore
    perfectly acceptable.

    Guy
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  9. you know? said:
    Quoted message said:

    I sympathise with the lost link syndrome, but there's nothing in the link you've provided to
    support the causality you claimed.

    Quoted message said:

    It's in there somewhere, or I've posted the wonrg one - I'll look again.

    Thanks. I'm pretty sure it's the wrong one...
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  10. Paul Smith said:

    Yea Gods Guy, your comprehension is failing you. Try putting away the prejudice for a minute.

    Your pot's looking a tad sooty there, Paul :-)

    Quoted message said:

    I'm also lobbying for changes that would have allowed her to be banned. You're lobbying for
    sentencing changes. Why not aim higher and lobby for driving standards improvements? Your
    sentencing changes would follow for free.

    Actually I'm after both. My view is (as stated ad nauseam) that the message sent by courts is a
    powerful one. In this case the message is that overtaking a cylist so close that you kill them is
    not sufficiently serious that it need inconvenience you in any way. If this was an isolated case I
    would probably not be so vehement, but it is one of several I know of. In one, the driver was not
    even given any penalty points because (get this) her history of offences had left her with so many
    points that any more would mean a ban. And that would cause (this is the best bit) inconvenience.
    Far be it from the courts to impose penalties which are inconvenient to the convicted.

    Mind you, looking at Archole, it seems like it's going that way anyway.

    Guy
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  11. Paul Smith said:
    Quoted message said:

    It helps because it shows the fact taht drivers react to perceived risk to themselves, not known
    risk to others. This supports one of your pet points, risk compensation. Only in this case the
    driver compensates for the risk being placed on other people by deciding that it's therefore
    perfectly acceptable.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd rate that claim as pure fantasy.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be quite happy to believe that the risk was not foreseen, and that had it been foreseen the
    lady driver would have been completely horrified.

    This could only be true if she had not read the Highway Code. Can you seriously believe that any
    driver would be in any doubt as to the likely consequences of hitting a cyclist? Or that overtaking
    too close to a cyclist is dangerous? Do you really believe, hand on heart, that any driver can
    honestly be unaware of these?

    Quoted message said:

    Do you seriously think she discounted the risk because it belonged to someone else?

    Yes, based on my daily experience. If I ride too close to the kerb, people will squeeze past me
    risking my safety. If I ride slightly further from the kerb they will continue to squeeze past as
    long as they think they can get away with it, even if there's oncoming traffic. If I ride a bit
    further out still they wait behind until there's no oncoming traffic because suddenly the risk is
    passed to them. Not boy racers, middle aged respectable people.

    Guy
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  12. James Annan said:

    Paul Smith wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you seriously think she discounted the risk because it belonged to someone else? It might be
    true of some of the boy racers, but not middle aged respectable people.

    Quoted message said:

    Drivers routinely give lamp-posts more clearance than they give me when they drive past (usually
    when I'm walking). What excuse can you dream up for them?

    I'd make no excuse for them. But you and I both would like to see it improved. I can only imagine
    one way to improve it, and that's driver training.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  13. "Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote >

    Quoted message said:

    It's bad risk assessment, nothing else.
    --


    Are you suggesting that bad risk assessment is OK? Isn't this a fairly fundamental driving skill,
    the lack of which counts as bad driving?

    It's got little to do with whether she read the Highway Code recently. All drivers are taught that
    overtaking cyclists is a riskier manoeuvre than many others and that lots of space needs to be left.

    All the evidence points to the fact that this woman made a major error. She admitted it. Stop trying
    to portray it as something else. She deserved a bigger penalty than the one she got.

  14. Quoted message said:

    Arguments ramble on, as ever, about who is to blame for gridlock and chaos on Britain's roads.
    Essentially the problem is that people want to drive cars. Claims that people would use public
    transport if it were better / cheaper / more reliable usually boil down to a belief that /other/
    people would then use it, freeing the roads for those who are obviously far too important to share
    space with someone who might, after all, be smelly.

    I just hope I never have to share any form of transport with Clarkson!

    Quoted message said:


    In the mean time there is an ever widening gulf between the promise and the reality of car travel.
    Adverts tell us that if we buy the Satsuma MX-7 Turbo we'll spend our lives tooling round mountain
    passes in perpetual sunshine with Kim Basinger at our side. Small wonder that when we buy the car
    and discover that we are still locked in the same traffic jam on our own in the pouring rain, only
    now losing money even faster due to depreciation, tempers fray.

    Personally I want to share a car with Hugh Jackman at my side. Paul Gross would
    do. Orlando Bloom in his sexy elf outfit would do too. I am most miffed that none of the adverts
    show me doing that. Does this mean adverts *lie*?? I am distraught. 🙂

    Quoted message said:


    Traffic Tantrums
    ================
    I say small wonder, but actually there is a conundrum here. The British are, for the most part,
    a supine race: if someone pushes into the supermarket queue in front of us we are more likely to
    write a letter to the paper demanding that the Government do something about the queue-jumping
    menace than we are to actually confront the offender. This reserve seems to vanish as soon as we
    sit in our cars. Traffic tantrums ("road rage" sounds far more mature; tantrums is what they
    are) are becoming more common - we are prepared to fight, occasionally to the death, for a few
    feet of road.

    Cyclists, of course, have largely opted out of this madness. The common perception of cyclists as
    "Lycra louts" is almost entirely an invention of the newspapers, based on journalists' experience
    of a small part of central London where bike couriers work. These couriers used to use motorcycles
    (and were almost uninsurable as a result of the incredible accident rate). Now even motorbikes
    can't move in the gridlock and they've started using bikes, using carriageway and pavement
    interchangeably. They are no more representative of cyclists in general than minicab drivers are
    representative of motorists.

    The term "Lycra louts" is misleading. The "Lycra louts" I see are never actually wearing Lycra. They
    are almost always "yoof" on bikes too small for them, where they haven't a clue about what gear to
    use, wear dark clothing and don't believe in using lights, stopping at junctions, red lights etc.,
    etc... Then there's the odd granny or grandad that pootle along in the gutter and don't think they
    have to stop at junctions or obey traffic lights... Don't get me started! Sadly bthey do exist
    outside of London 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    But the constant air of barely suppressed anger on the roads is taking its toll on cyclists. There
    is a steady stream of reported cases where drivers have placed their own momentary personal
    convenience over the safety of other road users with fatal or near-fatal results. The problem, of
    course, is that most drivers have the vote and most voters drive, so Governments are unlikely to do
    anything to restrict the actions of motorists. There is no doubt that if the car were not useful it
    would not be tolerated. Road accidents are the leading cause of death in the under-16s in the UK
    today - and when we say "accidents" we mean incidents usually caused by negligence on one side or
    the other. Pedestrians are responsible for their own downfall in a relatively large proportion of
    cases - but this doesn't tell the whole story. Surely if you are driving past a school you should
    be prepared for children running out - they are children, after all, with an incompletely developed
    sense of danger and probably no road sense (less than 2% of children now cycle to school - where
    are the other 98% going to learn road sense?)

    Quite - I know of parents who won't let their 15 & 16 year olds cycle on roads ... it's too
    dangerous you know. Theya re taken everywhere by parental taxi. Where are these "kids" going to
    learn road sense? Can you imagine what they are going to be like when they get behind the wheel of a
    car are let loose after their life time of being taxied about and playing computer games where you
    kill someone but that person is alive again after a re-boot??

    Quoted message said:


    Don't Mention Europe
    ====================
    In some European countries there is a presumption of fault against the driver of any car involved
    in a fatal or injury accident with a vulnerable road user. The driver has to prove that the other
    party was at fault (this applies, of course, only to civil cases, where the balance of
    probabilities is the test). The result is that they commonly have lower rates of cyclist and
    pedestrian fatalities than we do, despite (indeed partly because of) much higher levels of cycling
    an walking. Their highway regulations essentially tell drivers to expect pedestrians and cyclists
    to exhibit poor skills and anticipate this (as does our Highway Code, but it also tells drivers not
    to speed or park on yellow lines, and that can't be right, can it?). The premise on which this
    apparent anomaly is based is that the car is bringing virtually all the danger to the situation.
    Bikes and pedestrians can injure or kill each other in collisions, but it is vanishingly rare.

    Obviously any attempt to introduce this kind of system in the UK would be howled down by the Daily
    Mail and the Association of British Drivers, champions of safe driving and defenders of our right
    to break highway law without fear of prosecution (they see no conflict between these aims). A
    different approach is therefore required, one which includes both carrot and stick. Anything from
    Europe is necessarily intolerable (unless it's cheap booze - tax harmonisation is fine as long as
    we take the lowest rate for each particular tax), and anything which fails to recognise the
    absolute supremacy of the car is undermining the economy. Strangely the people who shout loudest
    about loss of British jobs when some measure of control over driving is suggested all tend to have
    their penis extensions built in Germany, which appears on first inspection to be in Europe and
    therefore the spawn of Satan, but apparently different rules apply in this case.

    So here is my manifesto, to be put in place as soon as I'm elected President of the Republic of
    Great Britain (sorry Ma'am).

    For Motorists

    Encouragement to reduce driving

    Cars are the problem. It's no use denying it: take all the buses, bikes, motorbikes and lorries off
    the streets of London and they would still be clogged. What's the difference between rush hour and
    off-peak? The number of cars. Not rocket science. So I propose a system of encouragements to switch
    modes and reduce driving mileage. This would begin with vehicle excise duty (VED) rebates for
    driving less than 5,000 miles per year, on the evidence of two consecutive MoT certificates (a
    special form indicating only mileage would be available for cars under 3 years old). There would
    be, of course, a penalty for fraudulent declarations, and a criminal offence of tampering with the
    odometer on a vehicle - which should also deter clocking. Mileage would be recorded on each VED
    application, so clocking would become immediately apparent. A declaration would be available for
    cases where the odometer is replaced, but this is of course rare.

    In many places is there a difference between rush-hour and off-peak any more?
    🙁
    It's h*ll using motorised transport at any time of day in some cities/towns.

    Quoted message said:

    Encouragement to increase skills

    Those who do drive often drive poorly. I would make receipted costs of accredited advanced driver
    training courses (including goods vehicle courses) allowable against tax for all drivers. I would
    also allow traffic police to award certificates redeemable as a discount off VED where they see
    instances of exemplary driving, particularly where a driver's skill or forethought has avoided a
    crash. I would also restore free eye tests on the NHS. As a matter of urgency I would commission
    the development of a new two-stage driving test.

    Hasn't the "you are a good driver" certificate already been tried in the south-west a few years ago?
    What happened to that scheme? Was it any good or just PR?

    Quoted message said:

    Antisocial Behaviour

    There is a certain class of car driver who appears to assume that parking restrictions exist to
    ensure there is somewhere for them to park. This is unacceptable. Illegal parking would be subject
    to one penalty point per offence.

    The stick......

    Automatic short bans for causing death or injury due to negligence, which can at the discretion of
    the court be "traded" for attendance on a driver training course and /or passing an extended
    retest. Bad drivers will either be taken off the road for a while or trained to be better drivers.
    And compulsory retests every ten years, plus evidence of a sight test not more than two years old
    to be submitted with insurance applications.

    Make sure they get taken to a morgue and are shown the reality of what they do. Close up.

    Quoted message said:

    And the Carrot......

    Drivers' organisations will undoubtedly bleat about any increase in penalties for carelessness. How
    dare we infringe their right to drive their cars carelessly? Surely they can hardly be held to
    account for accidents, even if they are negligent. It's an accident. Not very convincing, but you
    should see the claptrap they keep coming up with to justify protesting against speed cameras. So a
    quid pro quo: 80mph limits on motorways, more variable limits around towns (20 limits only when
    lights flashing or whatever) and a study to see if some lengths of motorway are suitable for
    complete derestriction of speed. A key criterion would be the existence of a parallel route of good
    quality for those drivers who don't want to join a racetrack.

    Somehow... we've got to get away from the idea that the maximum speed limit isn't a speed that
    should be driven at all of the time. People need to understand it's a maximum, not a requirement.
    Things like road conditions *need* to be taken into account. A road may have a 60mph max limit on
    it, but if it's little over single track width, full of bends, high sided so you have little
    visibility in front - 60mph may be the max limit, but sure as h*ll isn't safe to be driving along it
    at that speed.

    Also need to convince plod that just because an "accident" occurred where the vehicle was being
    driven at less than the max speed limit, this still may well have been dangerous driving due to road
    conditions at the time. There are cases locally where plod has said "Can't do anything, he was under
    the speed limit" when serious "accidents" have occurred. 🙁

    Quoted message said:

    For Motorcyclists

    Encouragement to ride motorcycles

    Motorbikes are environmentally desirable (compared to cars) and require less road space. Standards
    of riding are not always good, but this does tend to end in the death of the rider rather than some
    innocent bystander - nonetheless, the same tax allowance will be offered for any accredited
    motorcycle training. To encourage people to use motorcycles round town instead of cars I would
    introduce the following policies:

    - Removal of VAT on motorcycle clothing and helmets
    - Repeal of the helmet law (which has not reduced fatalities by any measurable degree)
    - Reduced VED bands for 4-stroke motorcycles with modest engines (defined by bhp)

    Motorcyclists do suffer a disproportionate casualty rate, and a disproportionately high rate of
    single-vehicle accidents. Additional tests may well be appropriate for those riding high power
    motorcycles. The periodic retest requirement will extend to motorcyclists, so that "born again
    bikers" will be required to demonstrate competence before being allowed to ride after a period off
    the bike.

    For Cyclists

    The bicycle is the most efficient vehicle on the planet, and offers unparalleled advantages for
    local urban transport. It has health benefits as well as environmental ones, so encouraging
    cycling is a double win. Levels of cycling are at a historic low in the UK at present, so much
    work is needed.

    Agree with that.

    Quoted message said:


    Encouragement to cycle

    Many people have bikes, many others don't. Those who do have bikes often fail to maintain them or
    (to pick one common complaint) to fit lights. In order to encourage people to buy bikes, and having
    bought them, to equip them properly, I would remove VAT on all pedal cycles (not including electric
    assist or petrol assist cycles) and accessories. There is no appreciable UK-based component
    manufacturing industry, so low or zero rates of import duty would be applied to bicycles and
    bicycle components.

    Cycle Facilities

    Overall the safest place to ride is on the road, but some people are unhappy with riding amongst
    traffic. On the other hand, bikes and pedestrians mix poorly. Multi-use paths encourage pavement
    cycling and increase danger for both cyclists and pedestrians - they should be removed as soon as
    practicable unless the councils can make a compelling case for retention of any path. "Green
    Kleptonite" strips will be subject to a minimum width, and where they are used it will not be
    permitted for them to end within 20m of a junction.

    True about cycle paths.

    Quoted message said:

    Bad Habits

    Among the bad habits which give cyclists a poor image are: riding without lights, riding on the
    pavement and jumping red lights. All are much less serious and with much lower injury rates than
    the common motoring offences, but should be addressed. Spot fines of, say £25 for no lights would
    be a useful deterrent. This is less than the cost of a set of basic lights. Ensuring that the fine
    remains higher than the cost of compliance is important in this case. Pavement cycling should be
    the subject of an education campaign - after all, shared use paths have been sending mixed
    messages. After a period for the message to sink in, pavement cycling by adults would carry the
    same penalty as no lights. And if the cycle is also found to be unroadworthy for other reasons,
    higher penalties, including seizure of the bike.

    True. Can we have this about motorised transport too - where it *happens*???

    Quoted message said:

    Guy

    You forgot about cutting off the goolies. Very amiss.

    Cheers, helen s

    Quoted message said:

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    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

    Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
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  15. Peter B said:

    I also know people who haven't had an accident for years whose driving scares me and others, if
    their luck runs out it may be big style. Some things I've witnessed are inexcusable, I'm not saying
    the lady in question behavior is such as I didn't witness it.

    Very true. I have never been so glad as I was when my Dad gave up driving - he has an unblemished
    record, has still got a licence (his doctor signed the chitty), but is absolutely not fit to be
    behind the wheel of a car. Polycythemia and a series of strokes have impaired his judgement and
    reactions quite severely, and the last time he drove me I insisted on driving back.

    Guy
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  16. Just zis Guy said:
    Peter B said:

    I can't imagine diverting my eyes to the left, let alone take in what a cyclist may be doing with
    his left hand, especially if as stated there was oncoming traffic.

    Especially when you remember the terrible tendency to follow the eyes
    - remember the training? Someone coming the other way, look at the escape route not the other car?
    Maybe we've hit on the reason for the crash.

    As I suggested, she may have reacted to a noise, a yell or a bump. Or indeed there may have been
    another vehicle coming from the opposite direction and the cyclist was the soft collision instead of
    a near head on - she had admitted to not crossing the line.

    I would like to know whether this point was questioned, as her statement does not seem to tie in
    with normal practice by drivers.

    Whatever the answer it still means she was the direct cause of the death through her bad driving and
    it does not mitigate the leniency of the sentence.

    Indeed it could show an attempt wriggle from the possibility that she simply drove too close and hit
    the cyclist.

    JohnB

  17. you know? said:
    Quoted message said:

    I can't imagine diverting my eyes to the left, let alone take in what a cyclist may be doing with
    his left hand, especially if as stated there was oncoming traffic.

    Quoted message said:

    Especially when you remember the terrible tendency to follow the eyes
    - remember the training? Someone coming the other way, look at the escape route not the other car?
    Maybe we've hit on the reason for the crash.

    You might very well have found something there. Well done for spotting
    it.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  18. you know? said:

    On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:45:28 +0000, Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yea Gods Guy, your comprehension is failing you. Try putting away the prejudice for a minute.

    Quoted message said:

    Your pot's looking a tad sooty there, Paul :-)

    I think not.

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Mind you, looking at Archole, it seems like it's going that way anyway.

    Archole?
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email Let's make
    speed cameras as unacceptable as drink driving

  19. Paul Smith said:

    Archole?

    Lord Archole of Weston-Super-Mare, serial plagiarist, philanderer and liar.

    Guy
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  20. On 20 Jan 2003 12:58:10 +0000, Alan Braggins <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [of trees and unlit cyclists]

    Quoted message said:

    I still don't think the two are comparable. It's not the tree's fault it is unlit, and it can't
    sneak up on you.

    Depends where you are. Round here the trees seem to take up horizontal positions quite often,
    usually due to erosion of steep banks by water. No wind required.

    Quoted message said:

    If you run into a fallen tree because you are going too fast to see it in time, and hadn't thought
    that the high wind might cause trees to fall, I think you _are_ probably driving without due care
    and attention.

    Or animal in the road or pedestrian or whatever. I think there's a significant difference between
    hitting an object which you couldn't reasonably be expected to see (whatever it is) and an object
    which you definitely should be able to see - e.g. a cyclist with lights on. I would, were I a pod,
    almost certainly not charge anyone who hit a stealth cyclist, tree, animal, unlit pedestrian on a
    country road, as long as they weren't talking on the phone with one hand and smoking with the other
    while speeding and driving on the wrong side of the road.

    Guy
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