Making left turn -- how far left is left?

Quoted message said:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone [email hidden]

Here's what you do. Take your water bottle and take a little sip. While
smiling and gesturing, "accidently" squirt her through the open window,
causing the child to laugh and clap with glee (after all it's all about the
child, right?), then apologize profusely and smile some more and pedal off
with a hearty hi-ho and a wave. ;-)

jj

<[email hidden]> wrote ...

Quoted message said:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone

18 inches from the yellow center line sounds close enough to me, that would
put your left handlebar less than a foot from the center line. If Mom can't
fit her vehicle between you and the USPS truck then her choices are to 1)
stop and wait for the light to turn or 2) get a smaller vehicle.

I had a talk with the local sheriff's department a while back, and I was
told that yelling unwanted advice or rude comments to other road users the
way Mom did can be construed as either harassment or disorderly conduct,
depending on the exact circumstances. Whether or not you can get the local
police and courts to take any action is probably a different story. Still,
you might be able to rattle Mom's cage a little by pulling out a pencil and
paper, writing down her license number, and offering to see what the local
police have to say about your behavior and hers.
--
mark

Quoted message said:

Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that).

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.
I know I wouldn't try to brake hard with only one hand.

Quoted message said:

Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.

(a) Who says they "go all the way to the left"?

(b) It sounds like you were pretty much "all the way to the left" to me. If
she can't pass you safely, then maybe you should have been further right
(taking the lane).

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.
--
Darin McGrew, [email hidden], http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, [email hidden], http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"How long is this Beta guy going to keep testing our stuff?"

"Darin McGrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the
left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

IIRC, that's what "Effective Cycling" says about that.

Quoted message said:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone [email hidden]

You did a lovely job describing the scenery, but I'm not sure you ever
specified how many lanes are involved!

Regardless, I think in just about any lane configuration I'd ideally
position myself toward the center, or center-right, of the right-most
left turn lane. Especially if there's just one lane, period, you don't
want a right-turning vehicle to pull up along side you or pass you on
the left, nor do you want a left-turning vehicle to pull up alongside
you or pass in the intersection on your right (preventing you from
fading back toward the right curb in the course of your turn).

Indeed, I guess I'm not a huge "taker of lanes," but it's one of the few
situations where I will. I used to face a big left turn first thing in
the morning on my commute, off a 4-lane divided highway with a 45 mph
speed limit. There were two left turn lanes, the leftmost left-turn only
and the right-hand one that either turned or went straight. Now, it's no
fun being anywhere within that rightmost LTL lane with heavy traffic
coming up from behind wanting to go straight through the green at 45
mph, but it's also no fun to take the leftmost LTL and find yourself
pinned toward the center by someone making the turn at the same time as
you in the other LTL. I solved my dilemma by moving.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Depending on the circumstances at the time, I generally
don't like being /too/ close to the street's centre line.
It's too easy to be clipped by a left-turner coming off
the cross street and "cutting the corner, " or on narrower
streets -- right-turners taking the corner wide. IME
drivers who do that are typically speeding, which makes
being hit by them especially egregious.

When deciding to stop while preparing for a left turn, it's
often a good idea to ascertain if there are any long vehicles
such as trucks or buses about to turn left off the cross
street and onto your street (toward you,) and position
yourself accordingly.

I always find it amusingly ironic when drivers of lumbering
hulks complain about the space taken by a bicycle.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In article <[email hidden]>,
DrLith <[email hidden]> wrote:

[T intersection, coming in on the side with no straight-through]

Quoted message said:

Regardless, I think in just about any lane configuration I'd ideally
position myself toward the center, or center-right, of the right-most
left turn lane. Especially if there's just one lane, period, you don't
want a right-turning vehicle to pull up along side you or pass you on
the left,

Moving farther left will do more to discourage this. If the lane is wide
enough, there's no reason not to leave enough space on your right for
a car; you won't be crossing paths, and neither of you is moving fast
enough to need as much elbow room as you would if you weren't waiting
to enter the turn.

Quoted message said:

nor do you want a left-turning vehicle to pull up alongside
you or pass in the intersection on your right (preventing you from
fading back toward the right curb in the course of your turn).

Why are you doing that in the course of your turn anyways? Keep your
lane position during the turn, then once you've completed the turn move
back to your preferred riding position.
If there's a car to your right as you're turning, then either they'll
pull ahead of you and you can move in behind them, or they're going the
same speed as you (or even slower) and there's no reason to change your
relative position. If the lane isn't wide enough to share going through
the intersection, they shouldn't be pulling up beside you waiting to
enter it.

I've never had problems riding in the left tire track and moving farther
left if there's a car waiting behind me with a right-turn signal on.
(That doesn't actually happen much; usually right-turning drivers
recognize that I'm turning left based on my lane position and pull
through on my right without me having to do anything, and there's almost
always enough room in the lane for low-speed sharing.) This appears to
be what the OP was doing in a lane that wasn't wide enough for sharing;
from the driver's reaction we can conclude that she was an idiot.

dave

--
Dave Vandervies [email hidden]
Well, we started with a mailserver named after the author of "Institutes
of the Christian Religion" and a nameserver named after the author of
"Leviathan". --Anthony de Boer in the scary devil monastery

Darin McGrew said:

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.

I tried to track down something that says this in the California
Vehicle Code once, but I couldn't find it, even though it makes
perfect sense to me. Do you have a reference?
--
Ben Pfaff
email: [email hidden]
web: http://benpfaff.org

Quoted message said:

So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?"

You did fine.

You don't say how narrow that left lane was. Sounds like it might have
been less than 12 feet, based on the fact that the right-turning twit
was so close to you.

In any case, if the LTOL is narrow, I take it, period, just as I take
any narrow lane. It makes no sense to invite drivers to sqeeze into a
lane with you when there's insufficient room.

My point is, if it were me, I'd have probably been five feet from the
center line, and the twit wouldn't have been able to pull alongside.
"Sorry about that, honey."

If the lane is wide enough to share, 18 inches from the centerline is
_certainly_ far enough left. I see no reason to squeeze closer to
oncoming traffic.

One thing to think about: If you were in a car, she'd have to wait
behind you without question. If you were on a motorcycle, she'd
probably have done the same with no complaint. And you have just as
much right to safe use of the road when on a bicycle.

Second thing to think about: Honest, scholarly research has shown that
SUVs tend to appeal to selfish twits. Your incident is just another
validating data point. No need to give that type positive
reinforcement.

I'm generally pretty calm on the road. I think I'd have calmly asked
for her name and license number, then offered to phone a policeman to
"consult" on the matter. And perhaps, if necessary, I'd have suggested
that riding a bicycle would help her lose some of that weight. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Hiy DrRock/element3/guy/gal/physician/PhD/person:
Thanks for the invitation to clarification! Aside from the
eastbound/westbound double yellow solid line, there are no lane markers
on Bunker Hill at the Mission Bay Drive intersection. However, it IS
wide enough for two vehicles, even two chubby vehicles, side by side.
Remember, we somehow managed to fit a USPS van, an SUV and a bicycle in
one undivided lane.

DrLith wrote:

I SNIP myself.

Quoted message said:

You did a lovely job describing the scenery, but I'm not sure you ever
specified how many lanes are involved!

I snip DrLith.

Robert Leone

Dear jj:
Tempting. But is violence, even slapstick violence, the answer?
Especially in front of a child who may have just been to see a medical
specialist about a chronic illness? Or just had a tooth extracted?
Yeah, maybe I'm taking that "sensitive male" thing too far...

Robert Leone

In article <[email hidden]>,

Darin McGrew said:

Quoted message said:

Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that).

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.
I know I wouldn't try to brake hard with only one hand.

Quoted message said:

Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.

(a) Who says they "go all the way to the left"?

Well, the local vehicle code (and I strongly suspect California's is
similar) says that the general rule for cyclists is this: if there's a
dedicated left-turn lane, you should be in the right side of the lane
(the usual "ride to the right" rule that cyclists default to). If there
is no dedicated left-turn lane, a left-turning cyclist is expected to
position to the left.

Now, the cyclist in this case was, within any sensible definition,
positioned well to the left. At 18" from the double line, her bike was
pretty darned far to the left.

Quoted message said:

(b) It sounds like you were pretty much "all the way to the left" to me. If
she can't pass you safely, then maybe you should have been further right
(taking the lane).

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

That is the correct behaviour, as I have been assured by an ICBC claims
adjuster*

*the word of a claims adjuster might not sound like much, but my
jurisdiction has a government-run monopoly auto insurance company.
They're not only the insurance providers, they're also a one-stop
claim-management system, and they usually have the last word on
accidents unless you choose to resort to the courts.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

Dear jj:
Tempting. But is violence, even slapstick violence, the answer?
Especially in front of a child who may have just been to see a medical
specialist about a chronic illness? Or just had a tooth extracted?
Yeah, maybe I'm taking that "sensitive male" thing too far...

Robert Leone

The other thing you can do if you are wearing dark glasses, is just
turn, stare at her, and say nothing, with the most emotionless
expression you can manage. Continue to stare at her. Don't look away.
Makes most people nervous. Makes some people really nervous! Something
about not being able to see your eyes...

Quoted message said:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone [email hidden]

To me this sounds an awful lot like "Mom the driver" was planning to
run the red light and was aggravated because the presence of two
vehicles, a bicycle and a large truck, prevented her from doing so. My
likely response to her would have been something along the lines of,
"So you couldn't barrel through the intersection against the light the
way you wanted. It's a tough life, lady. BTW, you are a little too far
to the left. SUVs, whether turning or going straight, stay more in the
center of the lane."
As far as her not being able to afford being wrong, my own personal
rule is, "If you can't afford something, don't do it."

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Quoted message said:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:

[rleone about to turn left at a 3-way but stops for the yellow light
and prevents an SUV from running the red]

Quoted message said:

Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert,

I'm no expert here, but I ride several mile in downtown Atlanta
everyday. From that experience, the *only* thing I could fault you for
is being too far left for fear of getting clipped by turning vehicles
cutting the corner close (I had avoided by one last second swerve to
learn my lesson). IMHO, she was totally in the wrong, impatient, and
you acted in the most responsible way with regard to your (well,
everyone's) safety. <applauds>

I've a habit that pisses of my girlfriend, but I do it anyway:
When I'm slowing to turn left and cars get impatient (mostly at red
lights), I point out that the light is red and that they can't go
anywhere anyway. Typically, they don't see the logic in this, so I turn
sideways, do a track stand acting as if I'm going to block them, and
apologize for "being in their way at the redlight" If I have time, I'll
either explain that I can ride down P'tree Street twice as fast as they
can in their car and jokingly offer to race or ask them if they would
have honked if I was in an Excursion with a blinker on.

\\paul
--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

Paul Hobson said:

I'm no expert here, but I ride several mile in downtown Atlanta
everyday. From that experience, the *only* thing I could fault you for
is being too far left for fear of getting clipped by turning vehicles
cutting the corner close (I had avoided by one last second swerve to
learn my lesson). IMHO, she was totally in the wrong, impatient, and
you acted in the most responsible way with regard to your (well,
everyone's) safety. <applauds>

The thing that annoys me about the left-turn-lane-clippers it that they
would manage to avoid doing that if you were driving a lane hogging
Hummer. There is no reason they can't stay in their lane when a bicycle
is present. Where this happens to me routinely I will move the front
wheel over to the extreme left edge of the lane to tweak these jerks. I
keep my right foot in the normal center position, through, so that I
can move (or be bumped) over to the right in a hurry.

amakyonin said:

Paul Hobson wrote:

I suggest that anyone riding in heavy traffic just get off the bike and
do the pedestrian thing with the crosswalks. It may cost you a minute
but it may save your life from an incompetent driver with a cell phone.
Soccer moms in big SUVs are really bad. I took a visual survey the last
few times I was riding in town and it looked like roughly 50% of the
people were yakking on the phone. Even when driving with a friend we
have had people in front of us talking at a red light and not notice the
green. On the other hand we have seen people talking and just blow
through a red light. Even in a car there is no safety from these
drivers, so me and my friends who don't bicycle, drive as if every one
was an idiot, since many are.
Bill Baka

I said:

Quoted message said:

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.

Ben Pfaff said:

I tried to track down something that says this in the California
Vehicle Code once, but I couldn't find it, even though it makes
perfect sense to me. Do you have a reference?

Hmm... I couldn't find it either.

I guess that's just part of the "cycling folklore" that's squirreled away
in my brain. Or maybe it's some obscure legal precedent based on the
"except those provisions which by their very nature can have no
application" language.
--
Darin McGrew, [email hidden], http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, [email hidden], http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Warning: Dates in the calendar are closer than they appear."