Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance on your MTB.
Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your own bike manual.
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
-- Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
Sutrherlands, Zinn books and the Park book are all great for your reference library. Add Schraener's and Brandt's books on wheelbuilding.
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance on your MTB.
Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your own bike manual.
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
If you need immediate help, the Park Tool site is really a superb resource.
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
If you need immediate help, the Park Tool site is really a superb resource.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
the usual suspects: bicycles & tricycles / sharp/ mit press bicycling science/wilson /mit/ press touring bikes Tony oliver out of print bicycle design, mike burrows Shimano 2010 catalogue aka The Data book
On Sep 28, 11:05 pm, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote:> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There
Quoted message said:
is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
If you need immediate help, the Park Tool site is really a superb resource.
No not immediate help. When I was a kid a bike lasting very long wasn't happening. Part of it was because we were on them constantly and part because about all we ever did to keep them going was keep the chain oiled, (with extra motor oil or the old 3 in one oil) brakes and fix flats and tires. Yeah I tinker with many things. But the more I tinker, the more I learned that there usually is a reason they do things like they do.
Sometimes its for the Sears reason. I ended up with a Sears lawn tractor that I had to work on yesterday. When they put the cover on what I was working on they didn't use a phillips or slotted screw. They didn't use something the common allen wrench would take off either. Instead they used a star bit knowing full well most people that might try to work on it wouldn't have one. I did. ha ha. Yet the average homeowner would get frustrated trying to get that simple thing out and you guessed it call Sears to get them to do the repair for them.
My recent bike purchase would likely be called entry level and in the scheme of things would be considered relatively inexpensive. Though its not the $100 Walmart special, its not the $1000 bike either. Still it cost as much as my first car and this time I want to learn how to keep it riding well. Maybe I will have more fun on my bike than I had in my first car. On second thought I doubt it.
On Sep 28, 11:05 pm, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote:> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There
Quoted message said:
is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
If you need immediate help, the Park Tool site is really a superb resource.
No not immediate help. When I was a kid a bike lasting very long wasn't happening. Part of it was because we were on them constantly and part because about all we ever did to keep them going was keep the chain oiled, (with extra motor oil or the old 3 in one oil) brakes and fix flats and tires. Yeah I tinker with many things. But the more I tinker, the more I learned that there usually is a reason they do things like they do.
Sometimes its for the Sears reason. I ended up with a Sears lawn tractor that I had to work on yesterday. When they put the cover on what I was working on they didn't use a phillips or slotted screw. They didn't use something the common allen wrench would take off either. Instead they used a star bit knowing full well most people that might try to work on it wouldn't have one. I did. ha ha. Yet the average homeowner would get frustrated trying to get that simple thing out and you guessed it call Sears to get them to do the repair for them.
My recent bike purchase would likely be called entry level and in the scheme of things would be considered relatively inexpensive. Though its not the $100 Walmart special, its not the $1000 bike either. Still it cost as much as my first car and this time I want to learn how to keep it riding well. Maybe I will have more fun on my bike than I had in my first car. On second thought I doubt it.
Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book does for auto repair.
I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
I've also found the Zinn books and the wheel book by Gerd Schraner to be good sources. I don't have Jobst's book yet but probably will someday.
On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: > Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There > is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly > don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book > that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows > pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book > does for auto repair. > > I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to > keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this > into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and > the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol
At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance on your MTB.
Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your own bike manual.
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau said:
In article <[email hidden]>, BigJulie <[email hidden]> wrote:
> sutherland's > > http://www.amazon.com/Sutherlands-Handbook-bicycle-mechanics-Sutherland/dp/091 > 4578065/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4791940-4852967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191039436&sr=8-2 > > > On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There >> is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly >> don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book >> that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows >> pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book >> does for auto repair. >> >> I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to >> keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this >> into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and >> the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance on your MTB.
Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your own bike manual.
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
And completely wrong, it's not what the book says at all.
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau wrote: > In article <[email hidden]>, > BigJulie <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> sutherland's >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Sutherlands-Handbook-bicycle-mechanics-Sutherland/dp/091 >> 4578065/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4791940-4852967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191039436&sr=8-2 >> >> >> On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: >>> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There >>> is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly >>> don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book >>> that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows >>> pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book >>> does for auto repair. >>> >>> I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to >>> keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this >>> into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and >>> the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol > At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and > the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just > get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material > overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless > you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance > on your MTB. > > Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every > mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your > own bike manual. > > I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor > here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book /a/ book.
> on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the > theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding. > procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
And completely wrong, it's not what the book says at all.
Dear Peter,
Here's what the 3rd edition says:
FINDING THE RIGHT TENSION
The following method works well in determining proper spoke tension for conventional road rims of up to 43 0 grams with 36 spokes. Tighten all the spokes a quarter turn at a time, starting at the valve stem hole. Once a distinct tone can be made by plucking, and spokes are not easily squeezed together by grasping them in pairs, it is time to check tension. After each round of tightening, test the tension by stress relieving. If the wheel becomes untrue in two large waves during stress relieving, the maximum, safe tension has been exceeded. Approach this tension carefully to avoid major rim distortions. When the wheel loses alignment from stress relieving, loosen all spokes a half turn before retruing the wheel
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ryan Cousineau wrote: >> In article <[email hidden]>, >> BigJulie <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >>> sutherland's >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Sutherlands-Handbook-bicycle-mechanics-Sutherland/dp/091 >>> 4578065/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4791940-4852967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191039436&sr=8-2 >>> >>> >>> On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: >>>> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There >>>> is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly >>>> don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book >>>> that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows >>>> pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book >>>> does for auto repair. >>>> >>>> I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to >>>> keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this >>>> into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and >>>> the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol >> At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and >> the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just >> get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material >> overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless >> you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance >> on your MTB. >> >> Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every >> mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your >> own bike manual. >> >> I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor >> here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book > /a/ book. > >> on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the >> theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding. >> > procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as > high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental > misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and > costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a > higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the > book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by > the rim manufacturer". I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
And completely wrong, it's not what the book says at all.
Dear Peter,
Here's what the 3rd edition says:
FINDING THE RIGHT TENSION
The following method works well in determining proper spoke tension for conventional road rims of up to 43 0 grams with 36 spokes. Tighten all the spokes a quarter turn at a time, starting at the valve stem hole. Once a distinct tone can be made by plucking, and spokes are not easily squeezed together by grasping them in pairs, it is time to check tension. After each round of tightening, test the tension by stress relieving. If the wheel becomes untrue in two large waves during stress relieving, the maximum, safe tension has been exceeded. Approach this tension carefully to avoid major rim distortions. When the wheel loses alignment from stress relieving, loosen all spokes a half turn before retruing the wheel
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
which is as complete a description of how to achieve spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" as there ever was!
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau said:
In article <[email hidden]>, BigJulie <[email hidden]> wrote:
> sutherland's > > http://www.amazon.com/Sutherlands-Handbook-bicycle-mechanics-Sutherland/dp/091 > 4578065/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4791940-4852967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191039436&sr=8-2 > > > On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There >> is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly >> don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book >> that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows >> pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book >> does for auto repair. >> >> I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to >> keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this >> into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and >> the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance on your MTB.
Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your own bike manual.
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
what's sad? having to correct gross error? or being gullible so that having smoke blown up your skirt seems like it's a good thing?
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry...
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
Actually, thanks to killfiles, I didn't see it at all.
-- Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau wrote: > I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor > here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
/a/ book.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the > theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry...
Quoted message said:
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
Actually, thanks to killfiles, I didn't see it at all.
-- Ryan Cousineau [email hidden]://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
Which killfile do you use> And is it applicable to Google groups?
"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Ryan Cousineau wrote: > In article <[email hidden]>, > BigJulie <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> sutherland's >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Sutherlands-Handbook-bicycle-mechanics-Sutherland/dp/091 >> 4578065/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4791940-4852967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191039436&sr=8-2 >> >> >> On Sep 29, 12:05 am, Mark <[email hidden]> wrote: >>> Well as I am increasingly intrigued by the mechanics of bikes. There >>> is a lot I just have never taken apart, put back together, and frankly >>> don't fully understand how things work. I wondered if there is a book >>> that is accepted as "the book to have on bike maintenance" that shows >>> pictures and step by step instructions much the way the Chiltons book >>> does for auto repair. >>> >>> I'd also be interested in books on bike design. Now I would like to >>> keep the theory to a practical level. No I have no idea to turn this >>> into an engineering project. I am already married to an engineer and >>> the last thing one needs is two engineers in the same house. lol > At a much lower price, Zinn and the Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance (and > the similar Road Bike Maintenance) are good Chilton-level books. I'd just > get the one for your primary kind of ride, as much of the material > overlaps, and the differences aren't liable to catch you out unless > you're a roadie and you decide to start doing your own fork maintenance > on your MTB. > > Sheldonbrown.com seems like it has directions on virtually every > mechanical repair known to cycling, so it's almost as good as having your > own bike manual. > > I make no submission on most bike design books, but regular contributor > here Jobst Brandt literally wrote the book /a/ book.
> on bicycle wheels, called "The Bicycle Wheel," and it covers both the > theory of wheels and the proper procedure for wheelbuilding. > procedure, yes. theory? some of it is badly awry. spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear" for example is based on a fundamental misunderstanding by the author and that is of the most practical [and costly] consequence to the novice builder - excess tension can cause a higher propensity for rim buckling and directly cause rim cracking. the book should should be amended to specify spoke tension "as determined by the rim manufacturer".
I guess that we all saw that coming...sad
what's sad? having to correct gross error? or being gullible so that having smoke blown up your skirt seems like it's a good thing?
This is NOT torquing a bolt until it starts to strip and then backing off a little. Stop pretending it is. The phrase "as high as the rim can bear" does NOT equal "higher than the rim can bear." Using the specified tension from the manufacturer is a convenient, well documented determination of how high a tension the rim can bear. Not a bad thing. Not necessarily in conflict with the other.
If you want to keep beating this horse please continue in private, there's nothing but bones and maggots left and it smells bad. Stop.
