Maillot Jaune degraded?

I was kind of curious if the folks with Rai (Auro and Davide) would have had anything to say, but
they never really mentioned it. And they aren't 'above' mentioning that sort of thing.

--
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Tony Austn said:

That must of been embarassing for Pena; being domestique and carting food and water around while
wearing the yellow jersey.

And who, pray tell, should have acted the role of domestique on a difficult stage to take Pena's
place -- Armstrong or Heras? If you think Eddy or Hinault would have toted water for one of their
domestiques, you are crazy.

Zeno

Pena doesn't get paid to wear the Yellow Jersey, he gets paid to fetch bottles and set tempo.

Pena, like all the posties, is Lance's [censored]. If he feels different, then let him prove it.

I don't like talented riders who settle for being domestiques. I respect Tyler, but how can you
respect Pena is he does not respect himself.

"Tony Austn" <[email hidden]_screw_spam> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That must of been embarassing for Pena; being domestique and carting food and water around while
wearing the yellow jersey.

Lewdvig said:

Pena, like all the posties, is Lance's [censored]. If he feels different, then let him prove it.

Quoted message said:

I don't like talented riders who settle for being domestiques. I respect Tyler, but how can you
respect Pena is he does not respect himself.

As Jason pointed out, he gets paid.

How about all the riders on teams that didn't pay them, or paid [censored] wages, yet still rode? Is that
self-respecting? Do you lose all respect for them too?

Almost everyone with the dedication to put in the miles necessary to ride at that level deserves
respect, except for those that lose it by cheating or saying dumb [censored].

Degrading would be if he had to star in a Bukakee film as a receiver of all the juices the peloton
could muster up....

"Tony Austn" <[email hidden]_screw_spam> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That must of been embarassing for Pena; being domestique and carting food and water around while
wearing the yellow jersey.

I really think USPS got caught up thinking of itself as "The Great Team" after winning the TTT.
"Even the maillot jaune gets water" -- that kind of thing.

M.

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lewdvig said:

Pena, like all the posties, is Lance's [censored]. If he feels different,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

let him prove it.

Quoted message said:

I don't like talented riders who settle for being domestiques. I respect Tyler, but how can you
respect Pena is he does not respect himself.

As Jason pointed out, he gets paid.

How about all the riders on teams that didn't pay them, or paid [censored]

wages,

Quoted message said:

yet still rode? Is that self-respecting? Do you lose all respect for

them too?

Quoted message said:

Almost everyone with the dedication to put in the miles necessary to ride at that level deserves
respect, except for those that lose it by cheating or saying dumb [censored].

In article said:

This is the "American" argument. Tradition , History, Cultural mores don't matter. It's about the
money, and your position in the money game. IMHO the Europeans are much healthier than we are,
but are falling into our trap. They value things other than money, and rate success by things
other than net worth. I much prefer the European value system that values skills, craftsmanship,
family, and community more than money. Bill C

Y'all are idiots for ignoring what Pena and his team director have said about the incident, but
then, any excuse to argue...

-WG

TritonRider said:

This is the "American" argument. Tradition , History, Cultural mores don't matter. It's about the
money, and your position in the money game. IMHO the Europeans are much healthier than we are,
but are falling into our trap. They value things other than money, and rate success by things
other than net worth. I much prefer the European value system that values skills, craftsmanship,
family, and community more than money. Bill C

It's obvious you have no conception of the way lowly domestiques are treated in the traditional
European peleton. "Slaves" would be a better description. There is nothing romantic or noble about
it. They are brutally exploited for all they are worth and then discarded.

Zeno

"Tony Austn" <[email hidden]_screw_spam> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That must of been embarassing for Pena; being domestique and carting food and water around while
wearing the yellow jersey.

Really.... why?? Pena didn't think it was wrong and he knows what his JOB is dude (like you don't)

-Ken

"Lewdvig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pena, like all the posties, is Lance's [censored]. If he feels different, then let him prove it.

I don't like talented riders who settle for being domestiques. I respect Tyler, but how can you
respect Pena is he does not respect himself.

OBVIOUSLY you are a new, recent, and a dumbass fan ehh?

In article said:

Quoted message said:

From: warren [email hidden] Date: 7/14/2003 11:07 PM Eastern Standard Time

Quoted message said:

Y'all are idiots for ignoring what Pena and his team director have said about the incident, but
then, any excuse to argue...

-WG

Warren It's been an incredibly busy couple of days. I missed any comments by Pena and
Johan. Bill C

Okay then. According to Pena and Johan, Pena saw that Lance needed a bottle and instinctively went
back to get some bottles. Johan told him the MJ does not get bottles so Pena did it just that one
time. Pena said he was fine with getting bottles since he was overjoyed just to be in yellow but he
says his real job is to help Lance win.

-WG

[email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: warren [email hidden] Date: 7/14/2003 11:07 PM Eastern Standard Time

Quoted message said:

Y'all are idiots for ignoring what Pena and his team director have said about the incident, but
then, any excuse to argue...

-WG

Warren It's been an incredibly busy couple of days. I missed any comments by Pena and
Johan. Bill C

Aparently Pena saw that Lance needed water so he went back on his own volition to get it. The race
director said something to the extent of "the yellow jersy doesn't get water" and Pena didn't go
back to the car anymore after that.

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: warren [email hidden] Date: 7/14/2003 11:07 PM Eastern Standard Time

Quoted message said:

Y'all are idiots for ignoring what Pena and his team director have said about the incident, but
then, any excuse to argue...

-WG

Warren It's been an incredibly busy couple of days. I missed any comments

by

Quoted message said:

Pena and Johan. Bill C

It is ridiculous and taken on a life of its own.

"zeno" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TritonRider said:

This is the "American" argument. Tradition , History, Cultural mores don't matter. It's about
the money, and your position in the money game. IMHO the Europeans are much healthier than we
are, but are falling into our trap. They value things other than money, and rate success by
things other than net worth. I much prefer the European value system that values skills,
craftsmanship, family, and community more than money. Bill C

It's obvious you have no conception of the way lowly domestiques are treated in the traditional
European peleton. "Slaves" would be a better description. There is nothing romantic or noble about
it. They are brutally exploited for all they are worth and then discarded.

Not quite.

1) the domestiques get paid
2) they choose that profession. Slaves have no choice.

The bike racers can choose to be plumbers too, but it's not quite as exciting. Besides, they can be
plumbers after retiring from cycling.

Listen you whelp, I have been following cycling probably a lot longer than you have. I have an
opinion that is as valid as yours and anyone else's.

I have read a lot of your posts and despite your best efforts to appear smarter than you actually
are, you are not fooling anyone. So why don't you

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Lewdvig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pena, like all the posties, is Lance's [censored]. If he feels different,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

let him prove it.

I don't like talented riders who settle for being domestiques. I respect Tyler, but how can you
respect Pena is he does not respect himself.

OBVIOUSLY you are a new, recent, and a dumbass fan ehh?

warren said:

In article said:

This is the "American" argument. Tradition , History, Cultural mores don't matter. It's about
the money, and your position in the money game. IMHO the Europeans are much healthier than we
are, but are falling into our trap. They value things other than money, and rate success by
things other than net worth. I much prefer the European value system that values skills,
craftsmanship, family, and community more than money. Bill C

Y'all are idiots for ignoring what Pena and his team director have said about the incident, but
then, any excuse to argue...

-WG

I'm with TritonRider in that I prefer the European sensibilities rather than the US ones.
Unfortunately, my country is going the US way...

But I think that Pena, knowing his ultimate role in the team, probably did in fact get the bottles
on his own. USPS could have told him and the other riders that while Pena was in yellow he did not
have to do any work, but they did not (or Pena ignored the plan, but I doubt that).

For USPS' ultimate goal (to have Armstrong win), having the MJ go back for bottles makes sense.
Other teams may not have done that and "respected" the MJ - but then other teams have not won four
consecutive Tours de France. I don't think that there is one other team this year with such a
singular objective. When Armstrong retires (and USPS pulls out), I am not sure that there will be
another team as "focussed".

steve

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Quoted message said:

It's obvious you have no conception of the way lowly domestiques are treated in the traditional
European peleton. "Slaves" would be a better description. There is nothing romantic or noble
about it. They are brutally exploited for all they are worth and then discarded.

Quoted message said:

Not quite.
1) the domestiques get paid

Sometimes. Maybe most of the time, but often not enough. Sean Yates was working as a gardener last
year before CSC called.

Quoted message said:

2) they choose that profession. Slaves have no choice.

Quoted message said:

The bike racers can choose to be plumbers too, but it's not quite as exciting. Besides, they can
be plumbers after retiring from cycling.

I agree comparing them to slaves is overblown. My point about Pena was not that he is paid to get
bottles (I don't think the MJ should get bottles) but that in general domestiques get treated pretty
low. It's not like they're minimum-salary baseball/basketball players. If Pena makes the choice to
ride for a team that pays well and on time in exchange for rarely getting to ride for himself, that
is a legitimate choice; the guy who says he loses respect for Pena is asking people to live the 0k
dream for him.

steve robertson said:

I'm with TritonRider in that I prefer the European sensibilities rather than the US ones.
Unfortunately, my country is going the US way...

Heh Heh

The "European sensibility" is for people to be bombarded with 'social welfare' propaganda 24 hours a
day so that the government can get the most amount of tax money and power over them while they think
they're better than US.