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Luz Ardiden remarks

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22 July 2003
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Ilan Vardi
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  1. I had a few observations about that stage that I did not find in today's L'Equipe:

    1. Sylvain Chavanel gained one minute on the Armstrong group in the descent of the Tourmalet. This
    was the same amount that Moreau got back on the descent, but Vinkourov made up about 20 seconds
    more. However, since Chavanel had zero help on the descent, plus was in a breakaway for many
    hours, this means that he is up there among the best descenders.

    2. Armstrong lost about 25 seconds in his crash. This crash might give the UCI some second thoughts
    about the special helmet dispensation for mountain top finishes. Recall that helmets are rated
    for falls at rest.

    3. Armstrong's 2001 gesture waiting for Ullrich proved to be a good investment. I don't think this
    is purely calculated. Good sportsmanship leads to fairer competition. On the other hand, I found
    Armstrong's gesture towards Chavanel fairly artificial. He did it because of the bad press he got
    with Jalabert in 2001.

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous performances
    on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb, e.g., the fact
    that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich had accelerated
    and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that it would have been very hard for Armstrong
    to attack him from that point on.

    5. Did Ullrich make a mistake on the top part of the Tourmalet? Zubeldia was able to make up a 30
    second gap on the second part of the climb (after La Mongie), and he is not as good a climber as
    Ullrich, as was proved in all the other stages. Therefore, one can imagine that Ullrich could
    have gone harder on that part, at least attacked Armstrong again. However, see point 3, that is,
    the explanation that Ullrich had already done his big effort on the climb, and that Zubeldia also
    made a similar effort.

    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it seems that Ullrich got back
    13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few kilometers. In fact, it seems that the gap was constant
    at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds as
    Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept looking back
    for help. Then finally came down fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    7. If Ullrich wins back some time in the final ITT, but not enough to win, Armstrong's final winning
    margin might exactly be his team time trial advantage over Bianchi.

    -ilan

  2. Ilan Vardi said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb,
    e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich
    had accelerated and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that it would have been very
    hard for Armstrong to attack him from that point on.

    Had Ullrich already reaccelerated when Mayo attacked, or did Mayo essentially follow through on his
    bridging speed, catching the waiting riders off guard?

    If the latter, that was really poor form. I will cut Mayo some slack for what he did at the
    finish, but if he took advantage of the other riders maintaining a sub-sustainable speed, that's
    clearly wrong.

    And if Mayo did, certainly Armstrong should have at least paused to give the others a chance to
    get going.

    Or was there an interval there?

    Quoted message said:

    5. Did Ullrich make a mistake on the top part of the Tourmalet? Zubeldia was able to make up a 30
    second gap on the second part of the climb (after La Mongie), and he is not as good a climber
    as Ullrich, as was proved in all the other stages. Therefore, one can imagine that Ullrich
    could have gone harder on that part, at least attacked Armstrong again. However, see point 3,
    that is, the explanation that Ullrich had already done his big effort on the climb, and that
    Zubeldia also made a similar effort.

    Ferrari reports Tuormalet was climbed at 1700 m/hr, while Luz Ardeden was climbed at 1745 m/hr
    (IIRC). See cyclingnews diaries for accurate numbers.

    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it seems that Ullrich got
    back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few kilometers. In fact, it seems that the gap was
    constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's attack, then quickly went up to about 53
    seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept
    looking back for help. Then finally came down fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge
    again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    Quoted message said:

    7. If Ullrich wins back some time in the final ITT, but not enough to win, Armstrong's final
    winning margin might exactly be his team time trial advantage over Bianchi.

    That would be interesting.

  3. Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb,
    e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich
    had accelerated and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that it would have been very
    hard for Armstrong to attack him from that


    point

    Quoted message said:

    on.

    Those who mention that Ullrich's momentum must have been interrupted by having to slow down for
    Armstrong fail to mention that Armstrong's momentum must have been hampered a bit when he hit
    the pavement.

  4. "Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it


    seems

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's
    attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying
    to figure out what to do, that is, he kept looking back for help. Then finally came down
    fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich &
    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped. If they did stop, personal experience tells me that
    lactic acid would pool in their legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get
    going again back to the preceding pace.

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, Ilan Vardi

    Quoted message said:

    On the other hand, I found Armstrong's gesture towards Chavanel fairly artificial. He did it
    because of the bad press he got with Jalabert in 2001.

    It looked to me like Chavanel was saying something to Lance as he approached. It seemed appropriate
    to respond in some way. Since Lance was racing at a very high intensity at the time a verbal
    response may not have been easily done nor heard over the ambient noise.

    Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb,
    e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet.

    Ullrich was just testing the waters. He realized there was no point in trying again because
    Armstrong showed he was not as bad as in previous days.

    Quoted message said:

    Before the crash, Ullrich had accelerated and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that
    it would have been very hard for Armstrong to attack him from that point on.

    Ullrich said he welcomed the chance to catch his breath after chasing down Armstrong. Ullrich
    doesn't ride at full speed the whole way up the climb and he could well have been slowing down right
    before the crash because he had just caught back on to Mayo.

    Quoted message said:

    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it seems that Ullrich got
    back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few kilometers. In fact, it seems that the gap was
    constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's attack, then quickly went up to about 53
    seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept
    looking back for help. Then finally came down fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge
    again.

    He's done this same thing before in response to one of Lance's attacks on a finishing climb.

    Quoted message said:

    7. If Ullrich wins back some time in the final ITT, but not enough to win, Armstrong's final
    winning margin might exactly be his team time trial advantage over Bianchi.

    Then credit to USPS for acknowledging the importance of having a good team to support their GC
    contender. Other companies are not prevented from following the same approach for selecting
    their riders.

    -WG

  6. Carl Sundquist said:


    "Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it


    seems

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's
    attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis
    trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept looking back for help. Then finally came
    down fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich &
    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped. If they did stop, personal experience tells me that
    lactic acid would pool in their legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get
    going again back to the preceding pace.

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

    They did not "stop".

  7. Ilan Vardi said:

    I had a few observations about that stage that I did not find in today's L'Equipe:

    1. Sylvain Chavanel gained one minute on the Armstrong group in the descent of the Tourmalet. This
    was the same amount that Moreau got back on the descent, but Vinkourov made up about 20 seconds
    more. However, since Chavanel had zero help on the descent, plus was in a breakaway for many
    hours, this means that he is up there among the best descenders.

    Also I'm not sure that the Armstrong/Ullrich group descended at their best speed and at the bottom
    they slowed down to give their helmets to the team cars while most of the chase group still had
    their helmets on when they caught the Armstrong/Ullrich group on the base of the last climb (eg
    Plaza leading out the initial part of the climb). Vinokourov didn't look to good on the early part
    of the descent as Bottero had to keep slowing down for him.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Armstrong lost about 25 seconds in his crash. This crash might give the UCI some second
    thoughts about the special helmet dispensation for mountain top finishes. Recall that helmets
    are rated for falls at rest.

    I'm surprised the fact that neither Armstrong or Mayo had their helmets on when they fell has not
    become the source of another helmet thread.

  8. "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I had a few observations about that stage that I did not find in today's L'Equipe:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    3. Armstrong's 2001 gesture waiting for Ullrich proved to be a good investment. I don't think this
    is purely calculated. Good sportsmanship leads to fairer competition. On the other hand, I
    found Armstrong's gesture towards Chavanel fairly artificial. He did it because of the bad
    press he got with Jalabert in 2001.

    Probably so.

    Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb,
    e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich
    had accelerated and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that it would have been very
    hard for Armstrong to attack him from that


    point

    Quoted message said:

    on.

    I agree 100%. He just takes loinger to get up to speed. It is not like he literally can only get up
    to speed once (only one acceleration as you say) but he takes a lot longer to find his top speed.
    This is masked in TTs. I noticed that once Lance passed him after the crash that he did not even
    stand. He simply did his usual wind up that takes a few minutes and that was enough time for Lacen
    to get about a minute gap. The gap closed slightly by the end of the stage. The public perceives
    that the crash hurt Lance, but the adrenaline combined with having competitors wait was no doubt the
    combinaiton of events that handed Lance the stage and the time gained.

    Quoted message said:


    5. Did Ullrich make a mistake on the top part of the Tourmalet? Zubeldia was able to make up a 30
    second gap on the second part of the climb (after La Mongie), and he is not as good a climber
    as Ullrich, as was proved in all the other stages. Therefore, one can imagine that Ullrich
    could have gone harder on that part, at least attacked Armstrong again. However, see point 3,
    that is, the explanation that Ullrich had already done his big effort on the climb, and that
    Zubeldia also made a similar effort.

    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it


    seems

    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's attack,
    then quickly went up to about 53 seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure
    out what to do, that is, he kept looking back for help. Then finally came down fairly
    significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    Exactly. The biggest loser from the crash was Ullrich.

    Quoted message said:

    7. If Ullrich wins back some time in the final ITT, but not enough to win, Armstrong's final
    winning margin might exactly be his team time trial advantage over Bianchi.

    -ilan

  9. "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    2. Armstrong lost about 25 seconds in his crash. This crash might give the UCI some second
    thoughts about the special helmet dispensation for mountain top finishes. Recall that helmets
    are rated for falls at rest.

    Can you recall an injury in an uphill crash on a big mountain climb that could have been prevented
    by use of a helmet?

    I can't.

    I've put this query to several other people (anti helmet) and they can't come up with an
    answer either.

  10. "KBH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9mdTa.120401$H17.37177@sccrnsc02...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that


    he

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can make one big acceleration per climb, e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack
    on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich had accelerated and was going at full speed, and
    it seems to me that it would have been very hard for Armstrong to attack him from that


    point

    Quoted message said:

    on.

    Those who mention that Ullrich's momentum must have been interrupted by having to slow down for
    Armstrong fail to mention that Armstrong's


    momentum

    Quoted message said:

    must have been hampered a bit when he hit the pavement.

    Not true. It is obvious. The point though, is that people waited for Lance. Lance did not wait for
    the others to get back up to speed. Actually. that is about the lowest scumbag move I can think of
    to attack from a small group that just got through waiting for you. Also, sometimes falling down
    like that causes a very powerful adrenal response. This is not to say he cheated or that the fall
    alone was an advantage. The scare from falling is what does
    it. So, taken all together; the adrenal response from the fall and the disruption to competition
    adds up to a net advantage.

  11. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate),


    it

    Quoted message said:

    seems

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds


    right

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    after Armstrong's attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept
    looking back for help. Then finally came down


    fairly

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich


    &

    Quoted message said:

    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped. If


    they

    Quoted message said:

    did stop, personal experience tells me that lactic acid would pool in


    their

    Quoted message said:

    legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get going again back to the
    preceding pace.

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

    groups.google.comgroups

  12. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate),


    it

    Quoted message said:

    seems

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds


    right

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    after Armstrong's attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ullrich had a psychological crisis trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept
    looking back for help. Then finally came down


    fairly

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich


    &

    Quoted message said:

    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped.

    They did not stop, but IMO they slowed enough to cause problems similar to what you descibe when
    stopping. I personally have a hard time doing an all out effort and then slowing like that. It
    takes me several minutes to get back up to speed. If the circumstanes are the same for everyone
    then it does obviously not cause gaps. For Ullrich it was as if his pace was affected by an
    additional descent.

    Quoted message said:


    If they did stop, personal experience tells me that lactic acid would pool in


    their

    Quoted message said:

    legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get going again back to the
    preceding pace.

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

    Lance did and possible Mayo too. None of the others did because they were going about 10 or 12 KPH.

  13. "Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich


    &

    Quoted message said:

    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped. If


    they

    Quoted message said:

    did stop, personal experience tells me that lactic acid would pool in


    their

    Quoted message said:

    legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get going again back to the
    preceding pace.

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

    No stoppage; at first Ulrich kept it ticking over pretty good, while looking back regularly to see
    if LA & Mayo were getting up quickly. He did ease up when the two fallers didn't come back as soon
    as expected (prob. due to LA's 2nd near-fall). At that point, Zubeldia started to come through and
    lift the tempo, and that's when Hamilton went to the front and started gesticulating for the group
    to wait. The only ones who stopped and got pushes were Armstrong and Mayo. Once they reintegrated a
    few seconds later, it settled down for a brief bit and then Mayo went again, with Armstrong
    following and then countering to win.

    Basically, it was just an instant replay of the previous attack/counter by Mayo & Armstrong that had
    been interrupted by the fall. Ulrich had been gapped a bit the first time but was closing it down;
    the fact that he hadn't yet is why he had room to avoid the crash. The second time around, he didn't
    respond and almost immediately started looking around behind him. While the fall interlude made it
    more dramatic, it was the standard routine of climbers jumping hard repeatedly while the rest keep
    it more steady and try to pull them back. They had about 10km of climbing to go still, so everyone
    had plenty of time to settle in and do whatever they could.

  14. "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Not true. It is obvious. The point though, is that people waited for


    Lance.

    Quoted message said:

    Lance did not wait for the others to get back up to speed. Actually. that


    is

    Quoted message said:

    about the lowest scumbag move I can think of to attack from a small group that just got through
    waiting for you.

    <snip>

    He didn't attack, Mayo did. Lance countered Mayo.

    As noted in Mr. Bob's excellent chronology, Lance attacked 3 minutes and 25 seconds after the crash.

  15. Nick Burns said:

    "KBH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9mdTa.120401$H17.37177@sccrnsc02...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that



    he

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    can make one big acceleration per climb, e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack
    on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich had accelerated and was going at full speed, and
    it seems to me that it would have been very hard for Armstrong to attack him from that

    point

    Quoted message said:

    on.

    Those who mention that Ullrich's momentum must have been interrupted by having to slow down for
    Armstrong fail to mention that Armstrong's

    momentum

    Quoted message said:

    must have been hampered a bit when he hit the pavement.

    Not true. It is obvious. The point though, is that people waited for Lance. Lance did not wait for
    the others to get back up to speed. Actually. that is about the lowest scumbag move I can think of
    to attack from a small group that just got through waiting for you.

    I have watched this segment at least four times (Thank you Tivo) and Lance did not blow by the group
    when he caught up. After rejoining he sat on for at least a minute and the group was riding at the
    same cadence. There was no sign of disorganization.

    Chechu was making a steady pace at the front when Mayo jumped and Armstrong went after him and then
    dropped him. Armstrong did not initiate the move -- Mayo did.

    Check your facts before calling somebody a "scumbag," scumbag.

    zeno

  16. "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I had a few observations about that stage that I did not find in today's L'Equipe:


    <SNIP>

    Quoted message said:

    3. Armstrong's 2001 gesture waiting for Ullrich proved to be a good investment. I don't think this
    is purely calculated. Good sportsmanship leads to fairer competition. On the other hand, I
    found Armstrong's gesture towards Chavanel fairly artificial. He did it because of the bad
    press he got with Jalabert in 2001.

    Or possibly more recently at Liege-Bastogne-Liege when he passed Axel Merckx.

    Quoted message said:

    4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    performances on climbs this year, it appears that he can make one big acceleration per climb,
    e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich
    had accelerated and was going at full speed, and it seems to me that it would have been very
    hard for Armstrong to attack him from that


    point

    Quoted message said:

    on.


    <SNIP>

    I don't think Jan was up to full speed yet. He was still far enough back to avoid the crash. As he
    said, it gave him time to rest. It would be just as easy to speculate that had Armstrong not
    crashed, he could have added another minute to his time.

    -T

  17. Ilan Vardi said:
    Quoted message said:

    .... I found Armstrong's gesture towards Chavanel fairly artificial.

    I find your claim to have the slightest clue fairly artificial. Are you still at Psychic Network?
    What did you want LA to do -- stop and give Chavanel a blow job?

  18. "Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Not true. It is obvious. The point though, is that people waited for


    Lance.

    Quoted message said:

    Lance did not wait for the others to get back up to speed.

    Yes he did

    Actually. that is

    Quoted message said:

    about the lowest scumbag move I can think of to attack from a small group that just got through
    waiting for you. Also, sometimes falling down like that causes a very powerful adrenal response.
    This is not to say he


    cheated

    Quoted message said:

    or that the fall alone was an advantage.

    Lance did not attack first, he countered. If you didn't see it on TV, go to WWW.Letour.com and check
    out the daily clips. Mayo attacked and Lance held his wheel before attacking

    Quoted message said:

    The scare from falling is what does
    it. So, taken all together; the adrenal response from the fall and the disruption to competition
    adds up to a net advantage.

    Then I guess we're going to see more riders use this tactic? Yeah right.

    -T

  19. Carl Sundquist said:


    "Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    6. From the times given on French TV (which are not always accurate), it


    seems

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that Ullrich got back 13 seconds on Armstrong in the last few


    kilometers.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In fact, it seems that the gap was constant at about 17 seconds right after Armstrong's
    attack, then quickly went up to about 53 seconds as Ullrich had a psychological crisis
    trying to figure out what to do, that is, he kept looking back for help. Then finally came
    down fairly significantly once Ullrich took charge again.

    This makes sense -- Ullrich would have recovered a bit during his "crisis".

    I find this confusing, however I didn't see the video either. Did Ullrich &
    co. stop to wait for Lance and Mayo, or just slow down and barely keep moving forward? From most
    descriptions, it seems like they stopped. If they did stop, personal experience tells me that
    lactic acid would pool in their legs while they were standing there, making it harder to get
    going again back to the preceding pace.

    For my take they soft-pedaled.

    Quoted message said:

    Also who amongst them received pushes from the crowd to get going again?

    Lance got a push for sure.

  20. "zeno" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Nick Burns said:

    "KBH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9mdTa.120401$H17.37177@sccrnsc02...

    Quoted message said:

    >4. It seems to me that Ullrich ended up being the loser in the crash. From his previous
    > performances on climbs this year, it appears that


    he

    Quoted message said:

    > can make one big acceleration per climb, e.g., the fact that he did not make a second attack
    > on the Tourmalet. Before the crash, Ullrich had accelerated and was going at full speed, and
    > it seems to me that it would have been very hard for Armstrong to attack him from that

    point

    > on.

    Those who mention that Ullrich's momentum must have been interrupted by having to slow down for
    Armstrong fail to mention that Armstrong's

    momentum

    Quoted message said:

    must have been hampered a bit when he hit the pavement.

    Not true. It is obvious. The point though, is that people waited for


    Lance.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lance did not wait for the others to get back up to speed. Actually.


    that is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    about the lowest scumbag move I can think of to attack from a small


    group

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that just got through waiting for you.

    I have watched this segment at least four times (Thank you Tivo) and Lance did not blow by the
    group when he caught up. After rejoining he sat on for at least a minute and the group was riding
    at the same cadence. There was no sign of disorganization.

    Chechu was making a steady pace at the front when Mayo jumped and Armstrong went after him and
    then dropped him. Armstrong did not initiate the move -- Mayo did.

    Check your facts before calling somebody a "scumbag," scumbag.

    zeno

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