Lowering HR w/ Exercise

Emma Chase VanCott said:

I want to get my resting HR from 80 to 70, or so.

Why do you want to do this?

--
~~~
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.
Board Certified in Family Practice

"Patrick Blanchard, M.D." <tag" <[email hidden]***remove>>> wrote:
: On 29 Oct 2003 21:34:49 GMT, Emma Chase VanCott
: <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> I want to get my resting HR from 80 to 70, or so.

: Why do you want to do this?

For the same reason anyone would want to: to increase cardiac health and
efficiency.

I think having a HR in the 80 BPM range is too high.

Emma

"Emma Chase VanCott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How long (how many weeks) and how much (How many mins/workout) and at what
capacity (% of max HR), would a person have to do
cardio work to drop their HR, say, by 10 BPM?

Any clinical and/or personal experiences?

Is there a specific training regimen that works best?

I want to get my resting HR from 80 to 70, or so.

Emma

My guess is that it would vary a lot from person to person but general cardio
régimes should also lower your resting HR in the long run. So 60 to 80% 5 or
so days a week for at least 30 mins. is I believe a typical recommendation.

Bill

Emma Chase VanCott said:

"Patrick Blanchard, M.D." <tag" <[email hidden]***remove>>> wrote:
: On 29 Oct 2003 21:34:49 GMT, Emma Chase VanCott :
<[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> I want to get my resting HR from 80 to 70, or so.

: Why do you want to do this?

For the same reason anyone would want to: to increase cardiac health and
efficiency.

I think having a HR in the 80 BPM range is too high.

Emma

I think it is great that you want to be healthy. I wish more people would
follow your lead. However,
I think 80 bpm is fine. I have seen very sick people with 80 bpm and I have
seen very healthy people with 80 bpm. Heart rate by itself is a very poor
predictor of cardiac health and efficiency.

Because you want better health, you must first find out how healthy you are
now, and I think any reputable doctor can help you asses that. Talk to your
doctor about what your goals are (stronger muscles, healthier heart, more
energy...).
--
~~~
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.
Board Certified in Family Practice

M.D. said:

I think it is great that you want to be healthy. I wish more people would
follow your lead. However,
I think 80 bpm is fine. I have seen very sick people with 80 bpm and I have
seen very healthy people with 80 bpm. Heart rate by itself is a very poor
predictor of cardiac health and efficiency.

Sure is. Much ado about nothing.

Quoted message said:

Because you want better health, you must first find out how healthy you are
now, and I think any reputable doctor can help you asses that. Talk to your
doctor about what your goals are (stronger muscles, healthier heart, more
energy...).

And come up with a definition for "health" and "fitness". What is
health to one may not be to another. Fitness is the same thing.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Bill said:

My guess is that it would vary a lot from person to person but general cardio
régimes should also lower your resting HR in the long run. So 60 to 80% 5 or
so days a week for at least 30 mins. is I believe a typical recommendation.

Yes, nut not always.

I trained an endurance cyclist once whose resting HR went up from 55
to 62 on average. We took her HR frequently, sometimes several times a
day.

Aerobically, I am in the best shape of my life since my playing days
(basketball in particular). My resting HR has not budged from 65 bpm.
It was 52 in high school.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Emma,

You are correct that a resting heart rate of 80 is too high. A heart
rate of 83 or higher triples your heart attack risk - so you're close
to that. See http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/8261.html
What can you do? I'd advise reading
http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/index.html
It's hard to say how much training will lower your pulse rate.
Certainly, before doing any check with your doc - a stress test may be
advisable. What's more important is assessing your recovery heart rate
- and other risk factors.

Emma Chase VanCott <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Patrick Blanchard, M.D." <tag" <[email hidden]***remove>>> wrote:
: On 29 Oct 2003 21:34:49 GMT, Emma Chase VanCott
: <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> I want to get my resting HR from 80 to 70, or so.

: Why do you want to do this?

For the same reason anyone would want to: to increase cardiac health and
efficiency.

I think having a HR in the 80 BPM range is too high.

Emma

On 30 Oct 2003 07:50:45 -0800, Brad Sheppard <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Emma,

You are correct that a resting heart rate of 80 is too high. A heart
rate of 83 or higher triples your heart attack risk - so you're close
to that. See http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/8261.html
What can you do? I'd advise reading
http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/index.html
It's hard to say how much training will lower your pulse rate. Certainly,
before doing any check with your doc - a stress test may be
advisable. What's more important is assessing your recovery heart rate
- and other risk factors.

I think you are looking at the wrong risk factor. Resting HR cannot be
taken out of context; she is not saying that she wants to avoid heart
attack risk.

excerpt from your source...

"The test is dependable only if you are not sick, not under unusual stress
and have not been working excessively hard for the last few days. A high
heart rate increases is associated with higher blood pressures that damages
arteries and forms plaques (5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

~~~
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.
Board Certified in Family Practice

On 30 Oct 2003 07:50:45 -0800, [email hidden] (Brad

Sheppard) said:

You are correct that a resting heart rate of 80 is too high. A heart
rate of 83 or higher triples your heart attack risk - so you're close
to that. See http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/8261.html
What can you do? I'd advise reading
http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/index.html

Brad, more often than not on SMC you over step your level of
expertise. This is one of the worst examples I have seen.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

M.D. said:

taken out of context; she is not saying that she wants to avoid heart
attack risk.

excerpt from your source...

"The test is dependable only if you are not sick, not under unusual stress
and have not been working excessively hard for the last few days. A high
heart rate increases is associated with higher blood pressures that damages
arteries and forms plaques (5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

Brad doesn't read Mirkin; he just absorbs him like water in the
intestines.

Then spews it out.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

True, she didn't say she wanted to reduce her heart attack risk. I
not sure why else she would want to lower her resting pulse rate.
Also true, if she is sick or under unusual stress or taking certain
meds a higher pulse rate may be normal. Based on the limite amount of
info given, it would be prudent for her to get an assessment of her
CHD risk factors.

"Patrick Blanchard, M.D." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 30 Oct 2003 07:50:45 -0800, Brad Sheppard <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Emma,

You are correct that a resting heart rate of 80 is too high. A heart
rate of 83 or higher triples your heart attack risk - so you're close
to that. See http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/8261.html
What can you do? I'd advise reading
http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/index.html
It's hard to say how much training will lower your pulse rate. Certainly,
before doing any check with your doc - a stress test may be
advisable. What's more important is assessing your recovery heart rate
- and other risk factors.

I think you are looking at the wrong risk factor. Resting HR cannot be
taken out of context; she is not saying that she wants to avoid heart
attack risk.

excerpt from your source...

"The test is dependable only if you are not sick, not under unusual stress
and have not been working excessively hard for the last few days. A high
heart rate increases is associated with higher blood pressures that damages
arteries and forms plaques (5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

~~~
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.
Board Certified in Family Practice

M.D. said:

(5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

Wouldn't cardiovascular exercise carry the same risk if the plaques
have already formed?

Also, if a plaque is knocked loose but a clot big enough to block the
artery does not form because one is taking aspirin, blood thinners,
fish oils or for whatever reason. Is the plaque gone for good and does
that part of the artery heal normally or is that site vulnerable to
future problems?

--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Smart people can figure out my email address

Ron Ritzman said:

M.D. said:

(5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from arteries to block blood
flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

Wouldn't cardiovascular exercise carry the same risk if the plaques
have already formed?

not all plaques are equally bad, depending upon how that person is managing
certain risk factors like nutrition and medication (prescription and
nonprescription), tobacco just to name 3 (out of over 200 known).

Quoted message said:

Also, if a plaque is knocked loose but a clot big enough to block the
artery does not form because one is taking aspirin, blood thinners,
fish oils or for whatever reason. Is the plaque gone for good and does
that part of the artery heal normally or is that site vulnerable to
future problems?

it is quite vulnerable to future problems

Quoted message said:

great question, you are asking the difference between an 'embolic' and a
thrombotic' event (event = stroke, tia, subclinical stroke, lacunar
infarct, vascular dementia, heart attack, angina, acute coronary syndrome,
increased LVH, renal infacts and poor circulation of the extremities)

--
~~~
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.
Board Certified in Family Practice

Patrick Blanchard, M.D. <[email hidden]> wrote:
: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:24:36 -0500, Ron Ritzman
: <[email hidden]> wrote:

:> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:58:12 -0600, "Patrick Blanchard, M.D."
:> <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:>> (5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from arteries to block blood
:>> flow and cause heart attacks (3)"
:>
:> Wouldn't cardiovascular exercise carry the same risk if the plaques
:> have already formed?

: not all plaques are equally bad, depending upon how that person is managing
: certain risk factors like nutrition and medication (prescription and
: nonprescription), tobacco just to name 3 (out of over 200 known).

:>
:> Also, if a plaque is knocked loose but a clot big enough to block the
:> artery does not form because one is taking aspirin, blood thinners,
:> fish oils or for whatever reason. Is the plaque gone for good and does
:> that part of the artery heal normally or is that site vulnerable to
:> future problems?

: it is quite vulnerable to future problems
:>

: great question, you are asking the difference between an 'embolic' and a
: thrombotic' event

I have always liked the alliteration in this expression: An embolus is a
thrombus on a trip.

Emma

Ron Ritzman said:

M.D. said:

(5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

Wouldn't cardiovascular exercise carry the same risk if the plaques
have already formed?

Heart attacks happen when plaques "rupture" spewing forth its lipid core
contents and exposing type IV collagen which is very prothrombotic. Normal
(no aspirin) platelets stick to exposed type IV collagen avidly enough to
shut down small arteries such that coronaries are. I don't know where the
"knock plaques from arteries" concept is coming from.

Quoted message said:

Also, if a plaque is knocked loose but a clot big enough to block the
artery does not form because one is taking aspirin, blood thinners,
fish oils or for whatever reason.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Is the plaque gone for good

No. It goes from ruptured/fissured to healed. There can be a great deal
of scarring here.

Quoted message said:

and does
that part of the artery heal normally or is that site vulnerable to
future problems?

If there is continued accelerated lipid deposition (ie lots of oxidized
LDL floating around), the large lipid core defining the vulnerable plaque
will recur as part of the healing process.

Quoted message said:

--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Smart people can figure out my email address

Hope the above helps you understand the furor of behind lipid
peroxidation.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

MD/PhD said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(5). A fast heart rate can knock plaques from
arteries to block blood flow and cause heart attacks (3)"

Wouldn't cardiovascular exercise carry the same risk if the plaques
have already formed?

Quoted message said:

I don't know where the
"knock plaques from arteries" concept is coming from.

It's a common way we the non-medical riff raff view it and it's
reenforced by the media somewhat. The Discovery Channel once aired a
documentary series called "Body Story" where they used fancy CGI
graphics to demonstrate what goes on inside the body. One episode was
about a construction worker who was participating in a lunchtime
soccer game. The problem was that this guy hardly got out of his
lounge chair so was out of shape. As the game progressed, we saw a
"Fantastic Voyage" like view of his heart racing and the blood gushing
through his arteries. The blood was rushing so fast that it literally
"knocked a plaque" from his artery wall. We saw the fat rush out, the
platelets rush in, blood flow stop, the guy grab his chest end keel
over, the ambulance haul him to the hospital etc. etc etc.

--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Smart people can figure out my email address

M.D. said:

not all plaques are equally bad, depending upon how that person is managing
certain risk factors like nutrition and medication (prescription and
nonprescription), tobacco just to name 3 (out of over 200 known).

So since around the turn of the century, we were clued in to the
dangers of weight, tobacco, cholesterol, sat fat, triglycerides, trans
fat etc. and now you tell us there are about 293 other things to worry
about as well? (and these are just the risk factors for cardiovascular
events)

I'l tell you what's killing us. It's the excess cortisol from worrying
about all these risk factors. It's almost tempting to wish to live
back in the days where you trusted God, (or whoever) lived the best
life you could and when it was your time to go, you went.

--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Smart people can figure out my email address

I may have overstated her risk. 80 for women isn't so bad, the norm
is 75. For men, a resting pulse over 88 is worrisome. "Prof. John
Camm (London, UK) reviewed the current evidence linking lower resting
heart rate to improved survival. In the general population, several
studies have shown a strong positive correlation between higher
resting HR and increased mortality with a two- to three-fold increase
in men for a HR >88 bpm compared to a HR of < 65 bpm. These data have
been confirmed by many studies, including the recent MATISS study. The
relation is less strong, though still present, in women."
http://ftp.escardio.org/newscast/stock2001/sipido.htm

Mars at the Mu_n's Edge <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 30 Oct 2003 07:50:45 -0800, [email hidden] (Brad

Sheppard) said:

You are correct that a resting heart rate of 80 is too high. A heart
rate of 83 or higher triples your heart attack risk - so you're close
to that. See http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/8261.html
What can you do? I'd advise reading
http://www.drmirkin.com/heart/index.html

Brad, more often than not on SMC you over step your level of
expertise. This is one of the worst examples I have seen.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Ron Ritzman said:

I'l tell you what's killing us. It's the excess cortisol from worrying
about all these risk factors. It's almost tempting to wish to live
back in the days where you trusted God, (or whoever) lived the best
life you could and when it was your time to go, you went.

It is never to late to turn back to the Messiah.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970827.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.