Low Carb diet and insulin requirement

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am an insulin deficient type 2 diabetic and recently went on a low carb diet. Given that my
calorie intake is not much reduced, can someone explain to me why my insulin requirement is so
much lower? Is insulin not required to convert proteins and fat to energy the way it is with
carbohydrates?

Martin

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the body has
to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You restrict refined
carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin. The insulin receptors
that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going high levels of insulin return
to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is well that ends well.

TC

In article <[email hidden]>, x-no-archive: yes

(tcomeau) said:

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the body
has to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You restrict
refined carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin. The insulin
receptors that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going high levels of
insulin return to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is well that ends well.

TC

It's not that simple for diabetics.

Restriction of carbs, period, not just refined is required for good BG control.

Susan

tcomeau said:

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am an insulin deficient type 2 diabetic and recently went on a low carb diet. Given that my
calorie intake is not much reduced, can someone explain to me why my insulin requirement is so
much lower? Is insulin not required to convert proteins and fat to energy the way it is with
carbohydrates?

Martin

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the body
has to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You restrict
refined carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin. The insulin
receptors that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going high levels of
insulin return to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is well that ends well.

TC

Thanks for your response but you haven't really answered my question. Calorie for calorie why is it
that fats and proteins seem to require much less insulin than carbohydrates? Do fats and proteins
eventually get converted to glucose to provide energy?

I am of medium weight and ate very little refined carbohydrates before going low carb.

Martin

Martin said:

tcomeau said:

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am an insulin deficient type 2 diabetic and recently went on a low carb diet. Given that my
calorie intake is not much reduced, can someone explain to me why my insulin requirement is so
much lower? Is insulin not required to convert proteins and fat to energy the way it is with
carbohydrates?

Martin

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the
body has to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You
restrict refined carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin.
The insulin receptors that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going
high levels of insulin return to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is
well that ends well.

TC

Thanks for your response but you haven't really answered my question. Calorie for calorie why is
it that fats and proteins seem to require much less insulin than carbohydrates? Do fats and
proteins eventually get converted to glucose to provide energy?

I am of medium weight and ate very little refined carbohydrates before going low carb.

Martin\

"REFINED" ANYTHING is STUPID...GO NATURAL and WHOLESOME! Refined sugars and flours are the
greatest enemy of this country and WE seem to be the ONLY dumbells using same in the world???
We also have the HIGHEST death rate next ro England where 30% commit sideways due to economic
problems. GO NATURAL..WHOLESOME...STAY healthy and YOUNGER!!! B-0b1

Robert McCarty said:

GO NATURAL..WHOLESOME...STAY healthy and YOUNGER!!! B-0b1

Sounds good.

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

In article <[email hidden]>, "Martin"

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your response but you haven't really answered my question. Calorie for calorie why is
it that fats and proteins seem to require much less insulin than carbohydrates? Do fats and
proteins eventually get converted to glucose to provide energy?

Fat is hormonally neutral and will not stimulate insulin. About 58% of the protein you eat is
converted to glucose, and 100% of the carbohydrate you eat is.

Susan

Quoted message said:

I am of medium weight and ate very little refined carbohydrates before going low carb.

Good, then you already have some good dietary habits. You just have to modify them now that you're
diabetic.

Some folks get stuck thinking that their own diet is the One True Diet that's right for everyone.
If you have a glucose meter, let it tell you, in post prandial readings, which carbs and how many
are best for you.

Susan

I understand that fat is hormonally neutral in the short-term but when it is eventually burned for
fuel does it not require insulin then? It's not the short-term insulin response I am asking about
because I understand that after 10 years as a diabetic.

My diabetic meds were going up and up and my bg was still not well controlled on the recommended
high carb/low-fat diet. I was switched to insulin but then discovered low carb diets about 3 weeks
ago. I stopped all meds and insulin and my bg levels are the best they have ever been. As my weight
is stable and my activity levels are pretty constant, I am just trying to get a handle on why my
overall insulin requirement seems to have dropped so dramatically.

Martin

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am an insulin deficient type 2 diabetic and recently went on a low carb diet. Given that my
calorie intake is not much reduced, can someone explain to me why my insulin requirement is so
much lower? Is insulin not required to convert proteins and fat to energy the way it is with
carbohydrates?

Martin

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the
body has to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You
restrict refined carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin.
The insulin receptors that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going
high levels of insulin return to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is
well that ends well.

TC

Thanks for your response but you haven't really answered my question. Calorie for calorie why is
it that fats and proteins seem to require much less insulin than carbohydrates? Do fats and
proteins eventually get converted to glucose to provide energy?

I am of medium weight and ate very little refined carbohydrates before going low carb.

Martin

I did answer your question. Carbohydrates, almost by definition, are almost entirely converted to
glucose. The only part of carbohydrates that isn't metabolized into glucose is the insoluble fiber
which simply goes thru you. Fats and proteins can be converted to carbohydrates but the amounts of
glucose created are very minor compared to dietary carbohydrates.

The blood sugar spike requires the body to produce massive amounts of insulin. If your diet is high
in refined carbs for a long time the insulin receptors become de-sensitized to insulin which in turn
causes the pancreas to have to produce even more insulin to control blood sugar levels. Eventually
your pancreas cannot produce enough insulin and/or the insulin receptors give out.

What do you call "very little refined carbohydrates". How many sodas per day did you drink? How
often did you eat potatoes or french fries? How much white bread did you consume daily? How often
did you eat pasta? Cakes? Chocolate bars and assorted candies? Sweetened juices? Iced tea? Pancakes?
Cereals? Buns? Corn chips?

TC

tcomeau said:

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

"Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> I am an insulin deficient type 2 diabetic and recently went on a low carb diet. Given that my
> calorie intake is not much reduced, can someone explain to me why my insulin requirement is so
> much lower? Is insulin not required to convert proteins and fat to energy the way it is with
> carbohydrates?
>
> Martin

Simple, high intake of refined and hi-gi-load carbs causes a massive blood sugar spike, the
body has to produce massive amounts of insulin to deal with the excessive blood sugar. You
restrict refined carbs, no massive blood sugar spike no need for massive amounts of insulin.
The insulin receptors that became insensitive to insulin due to previously massive on-going
high levels of insulin return to normal thus requiring less insulin to trigger them. All is
well that ends well.

TC

Thanks for your response but you haven't really answered my question. Calorie for calorie why is
it that fats and proteins seem to require much less insulin than carbohydrates? Do fats and
proteins eventually get converted to glucose to provide energy?

I am of medium weight and ate very little refined carbohydrates before going low carb.

Martin

I did answer your question. Carbohydrates, almost by definition, are almost entirely converted to
glucose. The only part of carbohydrates that isn't metabolized into glucose is the insoluble fiber
which simply goes thru you. Fats and proteins can be converted to carbohydrates but the amounts of
glucose created are very minor compared to dietary carbohydrates.

The blood sugar spike requires the body to produce massive amounts of insulin. If your diet is
high in refined carbs for a long time the insulin receptors become de-sensitized to insulin which
in turn causes the pancreas to have to produce even more insulin to control blood sugar levels.
Eventually your pancreas cannot produce enough insulin and/or the insulin receptors give out.

What do you call "very little refined carbohydrates". How many sodas per day did you drink? How
often did you eat potatoes or french fries? How much white bread did you consume daily? How often
did you eat pasta? Cakes? Chocolate bars and assorted candies? Sweetened juices? Iced tea?
Pancakes? Cereals? Buns? Corn chips?

TC

I give up. Can anyone recommend a good book on nutritional science please?

...

Quoted message said:

I give up. Can anyone recommend a good book on nutritional science please?

Don't give up. Just realize that insulin is not for digestion. It is a glucose scavenger that keeps
your BG down to safe levels and stores the excess glucose as fat in your fat cells.

Carbs digest primarily to glucose. Fats and protein don't, to the same extent.

So high carbs, unless distrbuted gently throughout your day, rasie BG too high and require insulin
to correct the problem. Fats and protein don't.

Ben

Martin Thompson said:

11:43:57 Sat said:

My diabetic meds were going up and up and my bg was still not well controlled on the recommended
high carb/low-fat diet. I was switched to insulin but then discovered low carb diets about 3
weeks ago. I stopped all meds and insulin and my bg levels are the best they have ever been. As
my weight is stable and my activity levels are pretty constant, I am just trying to get a handle
on why my overall insulin requirement seems to have dropped so dramatically.

The chapter in the Atkins New Diet Revolution book about diabetes is pretty good on this, if you
want a detailed answer.

For a simple answer, these are the factors that I can think of off the top of my head:

1) fewer carbs mean (hopefully) no spikes, so no emergency insulin dumps needed and so resistance
can reduce (as mentioned earlier);
2) proteins convert to glucose, yes, but much more slowly than carbs - hence, again, no spikes
unless you really over-do it;
3) much of the protein you eat is not converted to glucose, but converted to body tissue. Exercise
helps with this;
4) your body can burn fat for energy without the use of insulin and without converting it to
glucose (it burns ketones instead - they can cause a particular type of bad breath too. The
process is called ketosis, and is not to be confused with ketoacidosis, a problem of type 1
diabetics); there is no energy or stamina penalty for burning fat instead of carbs - your body
is perfectly well able to burn either, although carbs are better for a quick burst of energy
should you be feeling depleted at some point, and of course for raising your blood glucose
levels quickly should that be necessary;
5) exercise, assuming you are doing some, burns up glucose stores from muscle cells, without the
use of insulin (the glucose is already in there); subsequent glucose intake replenishes these
stores and keeps your blood glucose levels lower than they might otherwise have been,
preventing the need for insulin spikes and the resulting resistance (it takes a couple of days
to replenish the stores after an average workout, usually);
6) burning fat reduces insulin resistance for another reason: fat can physically block the insulin
receptors on cells;

Take a multivitamin and multimineral supplement: low carb diets can easily be deficient in some
substances and diabetics are often seriously deficient in some minerals anyway (chromium and zinc
come to mind). I would recommend also varying the diet from time-to-time so your body doesn't get
used to it: add carbs back in at least once a week, insulin spike or no. See 'The Metabolic Diet'
by Mauro di Pasquale for details. As a diabetic though, don't overdo it with the carb loading: you
still need to watch your BG levels most of the time.

Thanks Martin, that was what I needed to know, especially 4). I understood that consuming fats did
not immediately raise glucose levels but was under the impression that fats went to the liver and
were eventually converted to glucose in order to be burnt, in which case insulin would still be
needed. This once-a -week carb reload idea is interesting, it's something I have been thinking of
anyway. Thanks again.

Martin

Martin said:

Martin Thompson said:

11:43:57 Sat, 4 Oct 2003sci.med.nutrition For a simple answer, these are the factors that I can
think of off the top of my head:

1) fewer carbs mean (hopefully) no spikes, so no emergency insulin dumps needed and so
resistance can reduce (as mentioned earlier);
2) proteins convert to glucose, yes, but much more slowly than carbs - hence, again, no spikes
unless you really over-do it;
3) much of the protein you eat is not converted to glucose, but converted to body tissue.
Exercise helps with this;
4) your body can burn fat for energy without the use of insulin and without converting it to
glucose (it burns ketones instead - they can cause a particular type of bad breath too. The
process is called ketosis, and is not to be confused with ketoacidosis, a problem of type 1
diabetics); there is no energy or stamina penalty for burning fat instead of carbs - your
body is perfectly well able to burn either, although carbs are better for a quick burst of
energy should you be feeling depleted at some point, and of course for raising your blood
glucose levels quickly should that be necessary;
5) exercise, assuming you are doing some, burns up glucose stores from muscle cells, without the
use of insulin (the glucose is already in there); subsequent glucose intake replenishes these
stores and keeps your blood glucose levels lower than they might otherwise have been,
preventing the need for insulin spikes and the resulting resistance (it takes a couple of
days to replenish the stores after an average workout, usually);
6) burning fat reduces insulin resistance for another reason: fat can physically block the
insulin receptors on cells;

Quoted message said:

Thanks Martin, that was what I needed to know, especially 4). I understood that consuming fats
did not immediately raise glucose levels but was under the impression that fats went to the liver
and were eventually converted to glucose in order to be burnt, in which case insulin would still
be needed.

Regarding 4): When fat is being used for energy the triglycerides stored in fat cells are broken
down and the fatty acids that are released enter the blood stream, where they can be taken up by any
cells that want them. Alternatively, the liver can release fat bundled with protein carriers (VLDL,
LDL etc.) and the fatty acids will be removed as required by the rest of the body. Ketone bodies are
normally a small contribution to fat burning, but increase greatly when the body has been deprived
of food for a prolonged period (starvation). Fatty acids don't get converted to glucose, nor do
ketones and insulin is never required for burning glucose, only storing it.

The liver can take up amino acids without insulin and may convert these to glucose, particularly if
blood glucose levels have dropped. If this is the case it means the brain is likely to be short of
glucose (it can't burn fatty acids like the rest of the body). The whole reason blood glucose levels
are controlled is for the brain's requirements. The brain can take up glucose without the need for
insulin, so the only reason insulin is released is when glucose levels get too high and need to be
reduced (by pushing the glucose into other cells to be stored). Interestingly, *exercising* muscles
can also take up glucose without the need for insulin.

Your body want blood glucose levels constant for feeding the brain, but every time you eat carbs
they get messed up and insulin is the body's emergency response. Ideally most of the body will run
on fats, with glucose reserved for the brain, red blood cells and one or two other cell types. By
going low carb the blood glucose levels will rarely get high enough to trigger significant insulin
release, so the only tissues burning glucose are the ones that don't need insulin to remove it from
the blood.

MattLB

MattLB said:

Martin said:

Martin Thompson said:

11:43:57 Sat, 4 Oct 2003sci.med.nutrition For a simple answer, these are the factors that I can
think of off the top of my head:

1) fewer carbs mean (hopefully) no spikes, so no emergency insulin dumps needed and so
resistance can reduce (as mentioned earlier);
2) proteins convert to glucose, yes, but much more slowly than carbs - hence, again, no spikes
unless you really over-do it;
3) much of the protein you eat is not converted to glucose, but converted to body tissue.
Exercise helps with this;
4) your body can burn fat for energy without the use of insulin and without converting it to
glucose (it burns ketones instead - they can cause a particular type of bad breath too. The
process is called ketosis, and is not to be confused with ketoacidosis, a problem of type 1
diabetics); there is no energy or stamina penalty for burning fat instead of carbs - your
body is perfectly well able to burn either, although carbs are better for a quick burst of
energy should you be feeling depleted at some point, and of course for raising your blood
glucose levels quickly should that be necessary;
5) exercise, assuming you are doing some, burns up glucose stores from muscle cells, without the
use of insulin (the glucose is already in there); subsequent glucose intake replenishes these
stores and keeps your blood glucose levels lower than they might otherwise have been,
preventing the need for insulin spikes and the resulting resistance (it takes a couple of
days to replenish the stores after an average workout, usually);
6) burning fat reduces insulin resistance for another reason: fat can physically block the
insulin receptors on cells;

Quoted message said:

Thanks Martin, that was what I needed to know, especially 4). I understood that consuming fats
did not immediately raise glucose levels but was under the impression that fats went to the liver
and were eventually converted to glucose in order to be burnt, in which case insulin would still
be needed.

Regarding 4): When fat is being used for energy the triglycerides stored in fat cells are broken
down and the fatty acids that are released enter the blood stream, where they can be taken up by
any cells that want them. Alternatively, the liver can release fat bundled with protein carriers
(VLDL, LDL etc.) and the fatty acids will be removed as required by the rest of the body. Ketone
bodies are normally a small contribution to fat burning, but increase greatly when the body has
been deprived of food for a prolonged period (starvation). Fatty acids don't get converted to
glucose, nor do ketones and insulin is never required for burning glucose, only storing it.

The liver can take up amino acids without insulin and may convert these to glucose, particularly
if blood glucose levels have dropped. If this is the case it means the brain is likely to be short
of glucose (it can't burn fatty acids like the rest of the body). The whole reason blood glucose
levels are controlled is for the brain's requirements. The brain can take up glucose without the
need for insulin, so the only reason insulin is released is when glucose levels get too high and
need to be reduced (by pushing the glucose into other cells to be stored). Interestingly,
*exercising* muscles can also take up glucose without the need for insulin.

Your body want blood glucose levels constant for feeding the brain, but every time you eat carbs
they get messed up and insulin is the body's emergency response. Ideally most of the body will run
on fats, with glucose reserved for the brain, red blood cells and one or two other cell types. By
going low carb the blood glucose levels will rarely get high enough to trigger significant insulin
release, so the only tissues burning glucose are the ones that don't need insulin to remove it
from the blood.

MattLB

Fascinating MattLB, thanks. When my t1 brother goes dancing he eats 3 Mars Bars without raising his
insulin and still comes home low sugared.

Martin