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Lords debate on helmet amendment (long)

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30 November 2005
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2 December 2005
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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  1. (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Lord Swinfen moved Amendment No. 59:
    After Clause 43, insert the following new clause—

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR
    (1) Except as provided by regulations, it is an offence for any person
    to whom this subsection applies to cause or permit a child under the
    age of 14 years to ride a cycle on a road unless the child is wearing
    protective headgear, of such description as may be specified in
    regulations, in such manner as may be so specified.
    (2) Subsection (1) applies to the following persons—
    (a) unless the child is cycling in the course of his employment, any
    person who—
    (i) for the purposes of Part I of the Children and Young Persons Act
    1933 (c. 12), has responsibility for the child;
    (ii) for the purposes of Part II of the Children and Young Persons
    (Scotland) Act 1937 (c. 37), has parental responsibilities (within the
    meaning given by section 1(3) of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 (c.
    36)) in relation to, or has charge or care of, the child;
    (iii) for the purposes of article 5 of the Children (Northern Ireland)
    Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/755 (N.I. 2)), has parental responsibilities in
    relation to the child;
    (iv) (in relation to Northern Ireland) has care of the child or is,
    otherwise than by virtue of article 5 of the Children (Northern
    Ireland) Order 1995, legally obliged to maintain the child;
    (b) any person other than a person mentioned in paragraph (a) above
    who is above the age of 15 years and who has custody of or is in
    possession of the cycle immediately before the child rides it;

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 160

    (c) where the child is employed and is cycling in the course of his
    employment, his employer and any other person to whose orders the
    child is subject in the course of his employment.
    (3) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above is liable
    on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard
    scale.
    (4) In this section—
    "regulations" means regulations under section (Regulations in relation
    to section (Causing or permitting child under 14 to ride a cycle on
    road without protective headgear)); and
    "road" has—
    (a) in England and Wales the meaning given by section 192(1) of the
    Road Traffic Act 1988;
    (b) in Scotland the meaning given by section 15(1) of the Roads
    (Scotland) Act 1984 (c. 54); and
    (c) in Northern Ireland the meaning given by article 1(2) of the Road
    Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/2994 (N.I.)).
    (5) In this section and section (Regulations in relation to section
    (Causing or permitting child under 14 to ride a cycle on road without
    protective headgear)) "cycle" means a monocycle, a bicycle, a
    tricycle, or a cycle having four or more wheels, not being in any case
    a motor vehicle."
    The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 59, I shall
    speak also to Amendment No. 60. Amendment No. 60 empowers the
    Secretary of State to make the regulations needed for the effective
    operation of the new clause to be inserted by Amendment No. 59.
    These amendments are not the same as those that I moved in Committee.
    The age at which a child must wear protective headgear has been
    altered to children under 14, which will bring the law on children
    riding cycles into line with the law on children riding horses, as
    laid out in the Horses (Protective Headgear for Young Riders) Act
    1990. In Committee, the Minister said that he was concerned that the
    compulsory wearing of a helmet would put children off cycling. I am
    not aware that that happened with riding horses. I rather think that
    the number of children riding horses and ponies has increased since
    the wearing of protective headgear became compulsory. Children will
    still wish to cycle. It gives them a measure of independence that they
    crave. The Minister said that increased exercise is a major part of
    the Government's strategy to deal with obesity. I strongly agree that
    children should exercise, but it must be done safely. The wearing of
    protective headgear by children is compulsory in Australia, and when I
    was there earlier this year, I saw crowds of children happily riding
    around on their bicycles, all wearing protective headgear. It does not
    seem to have put them off in the least.
    I now turn to the question of liability. I have given the matter some
    more thought. I think the Government's concerns on liability are
    misplaced, even if the amendments were to be left as they were in
    Committee. That is because the accused must have caused or permitted
    the child to have ridden the cycle. In most cases, I imagine that only
    one person could have caused or permitted it to happen. In a case
    where a child leaves the house with his parents, not knowing whether
    he will ride a bike or not, and then borrows a bike from an adult, it
    is clear who caused or permitted

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 161

    it to happen. On the other hand, if the parents allow him out without
    a helmet, it is also clear. If the child leaves the house with a
    helmet on, and then takes it off, the parents cannot be said to have
    caused or permitted it to happen, unless they told him that he could
    remove it. Nevertheless, I have altered the amendments by leaving out
    the provision relating to the ownership of the bike. I have also
    provided for employers by requiring that the cycling must be in the
    course of the child's employment. I beg to move.
    The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment.
    I strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said. Her
    Majesty's Government are encouraging children and young people to
    cycle through their Safer Routes to Schools initiative and their
    advice to local authorities. They wish more children to cycle, for
    understandable reasons. But with that encouragement comes a
    responsibility for the Government to take all reasonable measures to
    protect children from harm. Yesterday, I spoke with a paediatric nurse
    who is caring for a 13 year-old who fell from his bike, smashed the
    front of his head and damaged his frontal lobes. He is now unable to
    manage his emotions and is subject to outbreaks of rage. A friend of
    mine at school, who I used to cycle with, came off his bicycle. He
    called me to the hospital, and when I arrived, he had forgotten that
    he had called me. He experience concussion. His personality changed
    following his injury. Some years later, he developed a bipolar
    emotional disorder—manic depression—that may be associated with that
    trauma.
    The overwhelming case is that helmets protect individuals from injury
    to the brain and that they are particularly effective in protecting
    children from brain injury. As the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said, we
    are all concerned that children should take more exercise. I believe
    that obesity in children has increased by one-fifth in the past 10
    years. The evidence about whether the introduction of cycle helmets in
    other countries has discouraged or encouraged children and adults to
    cycle is not clear either way. I remember visiting a Halfords store
    this summer and seeing a child with his mother. She was speaking to
    his father on her mobile phone, asking whether they should buy the
    larger bike. The message from the father was that they should get the
    larger bike. The boy was jumping up and down with joy at the prospect
    of buying a new bicycle. When I look in the park and observe children,
    I have to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said, that bicycles
    are so attractive to children that it seems very unlikely that a
    significant number of them will be put off simply because they have to
    wear a helmet.
    On the question of enforcement, when the Home Office was discussing
    this, a two-year plan was proposed. The first year would focus heavily
    on education, promoting bicycle safety and the wearing of cycle
    helmets. The second year would involve law enforcement officers. When
    they saw groups of children, they would warn them that in a year's
    time, it would be against the law for them not to wear a cycle helmet.
    Then, once the law was put in place, letters

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 162

    would be sent to parents asking them to purchase a helmet and send a
    receipt to the office to prove it, or else they would receive other
    warnings.
    Twenty states in the United States, Norway, Sweden, Australia, New
    Zealand and Canada, as well as several other countries, have
    introduced these laws. The Government are actively encouraging
    children and young people to cycle more. For understandable reasons,
    we have a low usage of cycles in this country. We have a
    responsibility to take reasonable measures to protect children from
    harm. When parents and children are consulted about this, they favour
    a law to make cycle helmets mandatory.
    The Bill will provide that careless drivers who kill with no intention
    to do so can be sentenced to a maximum of five years' imprisonment.
    The Government have set aside 150 prison spaces to cater for them.
    Those people are harming adults and children unwittingly so, with the
    greatest respect to the Minister, it seems somewhat ironic that the
    Government are encouraging children and young people on to the streets
    on bicycles without taking all reasonable precautions to keep them
    from harm. I look forward to the Minister's response.
    Lord Monson: My Lords, I am sorry to have missed the opening remarks
    of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen; it was entirely because of the
    contretemps over Amendment No. 58A. I told my noble friend Lord
    Listowel yesterday that unfortunately I would not be able to support
    his amendment, though I pay tribute to his arguments today. As might
    be expected, I oppose it mainly on libertarian grounds, but on
    practical rather than on purist libertarian grounds.
    People of my generation cycled every bit as much when we were 11, 12
    or 13 as children of that age group do today—probably more so, since
    there were fewer forms of alternative transport available. Neither I
    nor any of my great many friends and acquaintances ever suffered
    anything worse than a grazed knee. If children were falling onto their
    heads from bicycles in their hundreds every day of the week, I might
    think rather differently. But that does not appear to be the case,
    despite the moving example produced by my noble friend. One should not
    erode—
    The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the
    estimate for the number of children going to hospital each year with
    head injuries following a cycling accident is put very roughly at
    26,000? I hope that may be helpful to my noble friend.
    Lord Monson: My Lords, of course it is helpful, but we do not know how
    many of those accidents involve the head, how serious the injuries
    were, and, indeed, what proportion of the total number of child
    cyclists it represents. I appreciate, none the less, what my noble
    friend says, but I do not think that human freedom should be eroded in
    order to save the occasional individual injury.

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 163

    There is one other point. The amendment extends, rather surprisingly,
    to tricycles, which surely are much safer than bicycles. I should not
    have thought that was necessary. However, that is for the sponsors of
    the amendment to answer.
    There is a further practical objection, which has been touched on
    obliquely by the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen. The law requiring
    equestrians under the age of 14 to wear protective headgear when
    riding on a public highway is sometimes prayed in aid, but
    realistically it is difficult—not impossible but difficult—for someone
    of that age to go riding without adult input or, at any rate, adult
    co-operation. The horse has to be stabled or, if not stabled, kept in
    a paddock owned by an adult. It has to be watered and fed daily. The
    bridle, saddle and other tack has to be provided and kept in good
    working order. So it is fairly unlikely that a child under the age of
    14 would ride out on a public highway without the knowledge of the
    parent or the guardian. How very different where the bike is
    concerned. A 12 or 13-year old could grab his bike and zoom off out of
    sight of older members of his family in no time at all, and children
    of that age nowadays take instructions from their parents with a giant
    pinch of salt. For all those reasons I believe that the amendment is
    misconceived.
    The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I too missed the speech of the noble
    Lord, Lord Swinfen, in the Chamber, but I heard it upstairs. I used to
    work in what we used to call the "blood and bones" department of our
    local hospital. I saw first-hand a number of children with severe head
    injuries who had fallen or been knocked off their bicycles. That has
    left a very strong impression on me.
    My two granddaughters, who might, not disparagingly, be described as
    rather vain little girls, are very happy to wear cycle helmets when
    they ride their bicycles, so there is no objection from them. Just as
    children will remind their parents to fasten their seatbelts, and they
    religiously wear their seatbelts in the back seats of cars when adults
    do not, I think that children can be encouraged to wear safety
    helmets. I would very much like to see this become law.
    Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, I am not competent to take a
    close view on the validity of the amendment as it is written and its
    practicality, but I should simply like to follow the noble Countess in
    her remarks about trying to create an atmosphere, a culture if you
    like, in which young people automatically wear helmets when cycling.
    Cycling is extremely dangerous. Cyclists are the least well defended
    users of the highway—unless horsemen are even less well defended,
    because there are a great many riders' accidents. It would be
    extremely advantageous if we could cultivate a way of making sure
    that, in the same way as they use their seatbelts, children put on a
    hard hat when cycling. For

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 164

    that reason, were the noble Lords to take the amendment to a vote, I
    should be extremely tempted to support them.
    The Earl of Erroll: My Lords, while I think the amendment is extremely
    well meaning and that it is a very good idea for people to take proper
    safety measures, whatever it is they are doing that is dangerous, I am
    against compulsion. There are two sides to it. First, there is enough
    compulsion about things in life, and it should be up to individuals
    largely to decide. Children, I realise, are not mentally experienced
    enough to always make correct decisions, but they can be influenced
    very strongly by their parents. That brings me on to the business
    about permission—who is liable?
    Living in the country, our children go in and out and pop on a
    bicycle. They may decide to unlock the bike shed and get one out. We
    have no idea really what they are up to, where or when. They come and
    go as they please. On the practicality of suggesting they should be
    checked every time they want to go on a bike ride or whatever, they
    have general permission to use their bicycles. I am not quite sure how
    parents like us, who have a relaxed attitude to the comings and goings
    of their children, would fare on this. So I feel that that is probably
    the biggest downside. I do not like the potential liability and the
    potential chance for some person in authority to bully adults about
    their children's behaviour when maybe the adult has not been in a
    position to do much about it. I do not think that we should over
    control society.
    The real fact of the matter is that we are more likely to die of a
    heart attack, cancer or a stroke, or something related to that. Your
    chances of being damaged badly in an accident realistically are very
    low.
    Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who
    have contributed to the debate. Of course I share the objectives of
    the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, who moved the amendment, that we want to
    improve the safety of our young cyclists. That is exactly what we have
    been doing.
    Taking the period of 1994 to 1998 as a baseline, we have reduced
    deaths and serious injury for child cyclists by 49 per cent. So no one
    should underestimate the Government's commitment to improving safety
    for our children. We intend to improve on that position. We are not
    complacent. I want to emphasise that of course this improvement in the
    statistics is a reflection of a whole plethora of measures that we
    have taken to improve child cyclists' safety. Our programme includes
    the education of children and their carers, the education of drivers
    to take more care about child cyclists, publicity, better child cycle
    training and improved infrastructure to increase the opportunities for
    them to cycle safely on our roads and cycle paths. We include in that
    the promotion of the wearing of helmets because we are not going to
    contend with noble Lords the fact that the wearing of the helmet is a
    help to a cyclist if he has a serious accident and lands on his head.
    So we are at one with noble Lords in this respect.

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 165

    We know from regular monitoring of helmet wearing that there is a long
    way to go to increase such wearing. Boys are most reluctant to wear
    helmets. Set against a generally rising trend, the wearing rate for
    boys has gone down from 15 per cent in 1994 to 11 per cent in 2004.
    For girls, the wearing rate has risen to 26 per cent. Inevitably, a
    large proportion of those not wearing helmets are young adolescents
    who have accidents. That points to the nature of the difficulty: we
    start from a low base. I take on board the representations made by the
    noble Lord, Lord Monson, and the noble Earl, Lord Errol, on the
    question of personal responsibility; I shall also comment on their
    points about who is liable in a moment. The problem with the amendment
    is that we are starting from such a low base, but it would move us up
    to 100 per cent by law. We cannot safely promote legislation on that
    basis now. We are aware of the contribution that the wearing of cycle
    helmets can make to road safety, but to move from a position of low
    acceptance of that need to 100 per cent compulsion is a significant
    leap that we do not think is justified.  6.30 pm
    We have reservations on the issue of liability. I heard the noble
    Lord, Lord Swinfen, say that he had listened to my remarks in
    Committee and I am grateful to him for having done that. I addressed
    the issue of liability. But the noble Lord, Lord Monson, is right: it
    is not easy to identify who is liable. It is not clear who, if anyone,
    will be responsible for the crucial offence of causing or permitting
    the offence from the range of persons listed in the amendment. Suppose
    that a child cycles home from school. Are the parents responsible or
    is the school responsible? Is the school responsible as the person who
    has custody or possession of the bike before the child rides home?
    What if the school has a rule that helmets must be worn but the child
    does not wear one? Where does responsibility lie? We honestly think
    that there are real problems about ambiguity and who will be
    responsible. That will always be a question of fact in the
    circumstances. They are overlapping responsibilities. It may not be
    clear whether the school or the parent is responsible in such cases.
    I recognise that noble Lords will be disappointed by my response. I
    know that others share their views. The measure was introduced in a
    Private Member's Bill in the other place last year. The Government
    will not renege on our major commitment to improving child cycling
    safety, but we do not think that compulsion at this stage would
    produce the results that we want. We will keep a watchful and
    monitoring eye on the situation. I hope that the noble Lord will
    accept that the Government will not fail in our commitment to improve
    child cycling safety statistics and, on that basis, will feel able to
    withdraw his amendment.
    The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, is he
    aware of research from Australia undertaken by McDermott in which, at
    secondary school level, before education on bicycle safety, 2 per cent
    of those cyclists were wearing helmets; after education, 11 per cent
    were; but, after legislation,

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 166

    42 per cent of secondary schoolchildren were wearing helmets? There
    was an even more remarkable response from primary schools.
    Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, if I was not aware of it before, I am
    now. However, the noble Earl will recognise that if 42 per cent are
    compliant, the Australians, or that particular state, have a law that
    the majority of young cyclists are not obeying. In this country, we
    are concerned about obedience to the law. In fact, the great strength
    of our safety measures is that we do not propose laws that people can
    then safely and easily ignore; we propose laws by which we expect
    people to abide. That is why, as I have argued before, the driving
    test requirements in this country are so much more stringent than
    elsewhere in the world. We expect people to reach that level of
    competence. The same thing applies to observation of the law.
    As the noble Earl will freely concede, driving conditions in much of
    Australia are somewhat different, given the vastly greater population
    of people in crowded islands. We must address things differently. I
    hope that he will accept that, although I recognise his statistics, I
    would not take any joy in a law that the majority of our fellow
    citizens disregarded.
    Lord Swinfen: My Lords, the Minister's last remarks are very
    interesting, bearing in mind adherence to the law on seatbelts. To
    start with, very few people wore their seatbelts. To start with, it
    was not compulsory in the back of a car. It now is. If the Minister is
    fortunate enough to get an empty taxi to take him home tonight, he
    will find that there is a notice in the back of the taxi telling him
    that it is against the law not to wear his seatbelt. So the situation
    changes. It changes with education, I agree—in this respect, education
    of children on cycles—but in the past it has changed with education of
    adults in their motor vehicles.
    The Minister asked: who is responsible for ensuring that the child
    wears a helmet? In a car, the driver of the car is responsible for the
    passengers wearing a seatbelt, as well as himself. With children, the
    noble Lord, Lord Naseby, said that his children took their bicycles
    when they wanted to go out. When my children were young, there were
    standard instructions and rules that they had to obey, and they were
    in trouble if they did not. There can be a standing instruction that
    whenever they take their bicycles, they wear a helmet. That is not
    difficult. I know that children do not always obey their parents—I
    quite agree about that—but it is not difficult to lay down boundaries
    that they are not supposed to cross. Those boundaries get relaxed as
    the children get bigger. Later on, they are allowed out beyond nine
    o'clock at night, and so on. But with small children, you can lay down
    the rule that they must wear helmets and they are in trouble—sent to
    their beds, or whatever—if they disobey that rule.
    Also, schools can lay down school rules that children leaving school
    or riding around in school must wear a helmet or they will be
    punished. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, said that he did not support
    the amendment because 100 or so children might die or

    29 Nov 2005 : Column 167

    have a head injury every year if they did not have a helmet. The noble
    Earl, Lord Listowel, pointed out to him that 26,000 children were
    injured with head injuries every year, which is a rather different
    figure.
    The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said that it was good to create a
    culture of helmet wearing. I agree. As I said, in Australia,
    compulsion is creating a culture in which children are out wearing
    their helmets the whole time. Any new law takes time to bed down and
    for everyone to obey it because not everyone is aware of it. The
    Minister pointed out that the percentage of boys wearing a helmet has
    reduced recently. That is a very good reason for making it compulsory.
    He also said that we would be starting from a low base and that we
    would need to move immediately to 100 per cent wearing of helmets. The
    argument about helmets applies in exactly the same direction as the
    argument that the Government used on drivers' use of mobile phones, so
    that point will not wash.
    However, my noble friend Lady Hanham has put to me the argument, which
    she did not reiterate today, that my amendment would make children
    criminals. I shall look at that before Third Reading because I do not
    wish to make children criminals if I can help it. But it is important
    that we make it compulsory for children under 14 to wear protective
    headgear. I will reserve my right to bring the matter before your
    Lordships' House at Third Reading. In the mean time, I beg leave to
    withdraw the amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  2. On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:39:07 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? quoted Hansard:

    Quoted message said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Quoted message said:

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR

    It's somewhat easier to follow here:
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51129-18.htm

    And this is very worrying IMO

    Quoted message said:

    Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, [....] Cycling is extremely
    dangerous.

    Mike

  3. Just zis Guy said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    I read it with my head in my hands. Its on a knife edge and its coming
    back for a third attempt by Lord Swinfen to get it through. I wonder
    whether helmet threads will get such a groan and move on response if it
    does get through.

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  4. in message
    <[email hidden]>, Mike

    Causer (') said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:39:07 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? quoted
    Hansard:

    Quoted message said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Quoted message said:

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR

    It's somewhat easier to follow here:


    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51129-18.htm

    Quoted message said:


    And this is very worrying IMO

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP. How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to write
    to, to have optimum effect?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    "The result is a language that... not even its mother could
    love. Like the camel, Common Lisp is a horse designed by
    committee. Camels do have their uses."
    ;; Scott Fahlman, 7 March 1995

  5. Simon Brooke said:

    in message
    <[email hidden]>, Mike

    Causer (') said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:39:07 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? quoted
    Hansard:

    Quoted message said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Quoted message said:

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR

    It's somewhat easier to follow here:


    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51129-18.htm

    Quoted message said:


    And this is very worrying IMO

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP. How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to write
    to, to have optimum effect?

    One doesn't have a Lord.

    I think you can write to any Lord (in theory) - but it works best if you
    have some kind of connection to them - either through line of business,
    shared college, your bishop, area of the country or a more personal
    connection. They are also more likely to respond to a bit more of a gentle
    approach with the right form of address. It is probably also best if the
    Lord in question hasn't voiced a strong opinion either way. For those who
    are undecided posting a summary of the Scottish Parliament paper on helmets
    would be a good idea.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
    "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  6. On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:14:39 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>
    said in <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I read it with my head in my hands. Its on a knife edge and its coming
    back for a third attempt by Lord Swinfen to get it through. I wonder
    whether helmet threads will get such a groan and move on response if it
    does get through.

    What's worse is that at least one of those speaking for the amendment
    quoted injury figures he had been told had no known basis in fact,
    much less being serious enough to be a legitimate source of public
    concern.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  7. Simon Brooke said:

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP.

    Postcode lottery! Postcode lottery!

    Quoted message said:

    How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to write
    to, to have optimum effect?

    One might start by looking at the record of who has attended relevant
    debates: they might have some interest in the subject. A bit more
    research and one might find some bony fido cyclists amongst their
    lardships.

    But perhaps more effective would be to get at the press.
    Lobby Boris, not in his capacity as an MP (he's sure to be anti-
    compulsion anyway), but as a journalist.

    --
    not me guv

  8. Simon Brooke said:

    in message
    <[email hidden]>, Mike

    Causer (') said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:39:07 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? quoted
    Hansard:

    Quoted message said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Quoted message said:

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR

    It's somewhat easier to follow here:


    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/lds05/text/51129-18.htm

    Quoted message said:


    And this is very worrying IMO

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP. How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to write
    to, to have optimum effect?

    Perhaps you could copy the email to them all.

  9. As an"always" helmet wearer, I find this sort of uninformed potential
    legislation frightening. It is, unfortunately, probably inevitable that
    enforcement will happen ( I wear mine for "insurance claims" all the time
    and as a head warmer in winter)
    Reading the report is quite frightening -- and also the result is
    unenforceable.

    --
    Trevor A Panther
    In South Yorkshire,
    England, United Kingdom.
    Remove PSANTISPAM to reply
    "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:14:39 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>
    said in <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I read it with my head in my hands. Its on a knife edge and its coming
    back for a third attempt by Lord Swinfen to get it through. I wonder
    whether helmet threads will get such a groan and move on response if it
    does get through.

    What's worse is that at least one of those speaking for the amendment
    quoted injury figures he had been told had no known basis in fact,
    much less being serious enough to be a legitimate source of public
    concern.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  10. Just zis Guy said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:14:39 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>
    said in <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    I read it with my head in my hands. Its on a knife edge and its coming
    back for a third attempt by Lord Swinfen to get it through. I wonder
    whether helmet threads will get such a groan and move on response if it
    does get through.

    What's worse is that at least one of those speaking for the amendment
    quoted injury figures he had been told had no known basis in fact,
    much less being serious enough to be a legitimate source of public
    concern.

    Which Lord? I am writing to my MP on this and would like to be able to
    'point the finger' as it were.

    If it is a health issue, then surely it is not a reserved matter.

    The jist of my letter will be:

    Noted the debate and lack of sense of proportion

    Concerned as a parent of three, motorist, cyclist and scientist.

    Absolute numbers (about the same as those for kids running into
    football goal posts) are not worthy of intervention if not also
    insisting that kids wear hats just running about.

    Scale of KSI are almost entirely due to motor vehicles. Accidents (not
    just cyclists) reduced very effectively by slowing down vehicles (eg
    Hull and the Scottish experience of 20mph outside schools) and
    effective in mainland Europe by presumption of fault by insisting that
    those with the greatest potential to casue harm take the greater
    proportion of responsibility.

    And noting that it is better to teach risk assessment to use safety
    equipment where appropriate, rather than a legislated blind faith,
    using them where they are not certified. (if they are legislating for
    helmets to prevent injuries in crashes with motor vehicles, they will
    have a hard time finding any that are certified for such.)

    And the practicality of such a law, as raised in the Lords.

    Also request the introduction of very stiff penalties for leaving the
    scene of an accident.

    Fit the main points into one page and post..

    I'll draft one now and get it in the post by the weekend.

    ...d

  11. Pinky said:

    I wear mine for "insurance claims" all the time
    and as a head warmer in winter)

    Not that any insurance company has ever been able to reduce a claim in
    Court through lack of helmet wearing.

    A Buff keeps my head warm in winter now and it covers my ears too!

    --
    Tony

    "The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
    right."
    - Lord Hailsham

  12. Just zis Guy said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Lord Swinfen moved Amendment No. 59:
    After Clause 43, insert the following new clause-

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR


    ....

    Quoted message said:

    The Earl of Listowel:


    Earl of Listowel? How sad is that, going around calling yourself Earl
    of a place you've had your [censored] definitively kicked out of! Hey! Look
    at Me! I'm the Duke of Manhatten!

    This whole think is bogus - how do you get these laws proposed? It's
    time children were protected from the very real dangers involved in
    being exposed to noxious gases in cars, so on tha basis of the above,
    I'd to introduce the following:

    Duke of Manhatten moved Amendment No. 49:
    After Clause 42, insert the following new clause-

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO BE CARRIED IN A MOTOR VEHICLE
    WITHOUT BREATHING APPARATUS"
    (1) Except as provided by regulations, it is an offence for any person
    to whom this subsection applies to cause or permit a child under the
    age of 14 years to be carried in a motor vehicle unless the child is
    wearing breathing apparatus, of such description as may be specified in
    regulations, in such manner as may be so specified.

  13. Tony Raven said:
    Pinky said:

    I wear mine for "insurance claims" all the time
    and as a head warmer in winter)

    Not that any insurance company has ever been able to reduce a claim in
    Court through lack of helmet wearing.

    They will if (when) it becomes law :-(

    John B

  14. Not that any insurance company has ever been able to reduce a claim in
    Court through lack of helmet wearing.

    but this will surely change if the amendment gets through.
    Imagine trying to persuade a jury that the law is based on lies and
    deceit .
    Some of the statements made in the above debate amount to 'attempts to
    mislead the house'.
    TerryJ

  15. in message <[email hidden]>, Nick Kew

    (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP.

    Postcode lottery! Postcode lottery!

    Quoted message said:

    How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to
    write to, to have optimum effect?

    One might start by looking at the record of who has attended relevant
    debates: they might have some interest in the subject. A bit more
    research and one might find some bony fido cyclists amongst their
    lardships.

    But perhaps more effective would be to get at the press.
    Lobby Boris, not in his capacity as an MP (he's sure to be anti-
    compulsion anyway), but as a journalist.

    Also a writer of at least one very funny novel. One of the things I
    enjoyed most during my recent month in hospital was said Mr Johnson's
    _72 virgins_. Recommended. ObCycling: the hero (naturally) cycles.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    [ This mind intentionally left blank ]

  16. "David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ....
    | And noting that it is better to teach risk assessment to use safety
    | equipment where appropriate, rather than a legislated blind faith,
    | using them where they are not certified. (if they are legislating for
    | helmets to prevent injuries in crashes with motor vehicles, they will
    | have a hard time finding any that are certified for such.)

    That last surely has the potential for kicking the whole thing into
    touch, at least for a while. There are no "safety helmets" made and yet
    they're clearly expecting to save lives with this measure. So convince
    them they may be creating an unfounded (or whatever the technical term
    is) law unless they investigate the performative characteristics of
    cycle helmets. I suppose they ought to listen to the line that there are
    many types of helmets so they ought to say which type in the
    legislation, at which point they won't find a type which fits the
    purpose.

    --
    Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph

  17. John B said:
    Tony Raven said:
    Pinky said:

    I wear mine for "insurance claims" all the time
    and as a head warmer in winter)

    Not that any insurance company has ever been able to reduce a claim in
    Court through lack of helmet wearing.

    They will if (when) it becomes law :-(

    John B

    That's the bit that worries me. Insurance companies will jump on a law
    like this, they'll use it to reduce payouts and shift blame and
    responsiblilty.
    "A bad example may be where they claim their client did not cause the
    brain damage suffered by a cyclist because the cyclist was not wearing
    a helmet at the time. Even though the driver admits to speeding across
    a roundabout at 40mph and stricking the cyclist from the rear. They
    will cover the cost of replacing the bicycle, but not pay for the wheel
    chair the cyclist now requires."

    Laters,

    Marz

  18. Pinky said:

    As an"always" helmet wearer, I find this sort of uninformed potential
    legislation frightening. It is, unfortunately, probably inevitable that
    enforcement will happen ( I wear mine for "insurance claims" all the time
    and as a head warmer in winter)
    Reading the report is quite frightening -- and also the result is
    unenforceable.

    It would be rather nice if legislation which had been recommended on
    the basis of claimed facts later shown to be false would thereby
    automatically be invalidated, or at least required to be ratified by a
    new debate within a certain period of time in order to persist.

    Would it be possible to recommend a bill to parliamemt which affected
    all other bills in this way?

    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  19. in message <[email hidden]>, Simon

    Brooke (') said:

    in message
    <[email hidden]>, Mike

    Causer (') said:

    On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:39:07 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? quoted
    Hansard:

    Quoted message said:

    (Amendment withdrawn by proposer)

    Quoted message said:

    "CAUSING OR PERMITTING CHILD UNDER 14 TO RIDE A CYCLE ON ROAD WITHOUT
    PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR

    And this is very worrying IMO

    With the House of Commons, one can, of course, write to one's MP. How
    does one write to one's Lord? How does one determine which Lord to
    write to, to have optimum effect?

    Further to the above, those who spoke in the debate were:

    The Earl of Listowel (for the amendment)
    Lord Monson (against - libertarian)
    The Countess of Mar (for - accident and emergency experience)
    Baroness Thomas of Walliswood (for - 'cycling is extremely dangerous'😉
    The Earl of Erroll (against - libertarian)
    Lord Davies of Oldham (against - speaking for the Government)

    Lord Swinfen himself is a third generation hereditary peer, the peerage
    having originally been an Irish one. He's 67, educated as Westminster
    and Sandhurst, and served in the Royal Scots rising to Lieutenant. None
    of the interests he declares seem to be remunerated, so presumably he
    has 'private means' (lucky chap).

    His personal interests, however, are very interesting. While he has no
    specific interest in cycling he is President of the South East Region
    British Sports Association for the Disabled.

    He established and appears to personally fund a charitable trust and an
    Australian university unit which promote and develop low cost
    telemedicine links for third world countries
    <URL:http://www.uq.edu.au/swinfen/>, and he is personally listed as an
    author of papers on

    * "An Evaluation of the First Year's Experience with a Low-cost
    Telemedicine Link in Bangladesh", 2001,
    * "Store-and-Forward Teleneurology in Developing Countries", 2001,
    * "Experience with a Low-cost Telemedicine System in Three Developing
    Countries", 2001

    He's been in Iraq this year visiting hospitals and helping set up
    telemedicine relationships.

    His full entry in the Register of Lords Interests is as follows:

    SWINFEN, Lord

    *12(e) Remunerated directorships

    Member of the Advisory Board of The Leonard Cheshire Centre of
    Conflict Recovery (unpaid)

    15(d) Office-holder in voluntary organisations

    Administrator, The Swinfen Charitable Trust (provides
    telemedical links between hospitals in the developing world and
    medical consultants world-wide)

    Liveryman, Worshipful Company of Drapers

    President, South East Region British Sports Association for the
    Disabled

    Chairman, United Kingdom/Japan Research and Development Group for
    Ageing Disability and Technology (RADGADAT)

    16(b) Voluntary organisations

    Patron, Disablement Income Group

    Patron, World Orthopaedic Concern

    Patron, M.O.E.T Iraq (Management of Obstetric Emergency & Trauma)

    Hon. Research Fellow, Centre for Online Health, University of
    Queensland

    So: he's not just an old buffer; he has an interest in (and presumably
    some knowledge of) medicine, disability, and information technology. All
    this means he's someone we can write to and hope to influence.

    As to /how/ to contact him I have not found an email address. The House
    of Lords website says "Mail addressed to members at the House is often
    forwarded at their request to a different address. If you have a
    deadline to meet (e.g. a particular debate or stage of a Bill), always
    allow time for mail to be redirected." The address is

    House of Lords
    Westminster,
    London,
    SW1A OPW

    As he's quite elderly, and of his background, I suggest that it's more
    than usually important that letters should be courteous and well
    constructed.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
    ;; the Worlock

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