Loose stones

Richard said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've never
been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a lane I'd
not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt laid sometime
in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and I'm happily
trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped? (I was picking my way down with the front
brake on hard, the back brake off, whimpering steadily).

IMLE, off the saddle, balance, let the brakes go a bit, balance,
balance some more and then cut out the wimpering. Either shut up or
have a real manly scream...

...d

Richard said:

and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped?

I'm not a mountain biker very often, but the lane in question sounds
rather like the one our house is by so I go down that sort of thing a
fair bit, and on "unsuitable" bikes like a Brompton...

Speed does help: as the front wheel is thrown sideways a higher forward
speed means the overall travel is still largely forward which is easier
to recover from. Also the case that as you go faster steering is more
about lean than handlebar twist so there's less unwanted steering from
the obstacles and it's easier to do your own. It's a sort of compromise
between more speed == better running but also more speed == more extreme
terror. You choose, you lose...

Also, stand up with the pedals at 3/9 o'clock: that gives you a stable
platform where you can shift your weight for balance easily and also use
your legs to take a lot of the shock.

A loose grip on the bars is something I find helps (especially with
rigid forks). They do (at least on my bikes...) tend to correct
themselves if they're allowed to move a /little/ bit. Sounds rather
dodgy, I grant you, but a Death Grip on the bars doesn't make the
steering better. I tend to circle the bars with my hands but don't grip
them hard at all (weight on my legs), which means I can prevent any
tendency to jackknife but the wheel is free to take minor jumplets
around ruts and cobbles. Saves your wrists a great deal of grief too!

The Real MTB folk may well have better advice, but the above works for me.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Richard" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique for coping with
these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel when they hit,
briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways? Would speed have
helped? (I was picking my way down with the front brake on hard, the back
brake off, whimpering steadily).

As David said, get off the saddle, bend your arms and let your legs become
shocks (you also won't lose your gonads). Be careful of overheating the
brakes and choose your lines carefully. You don't want to go down faster
than you are comfortable falling. It can be done faster, as a friend once
showed me. However that was only because he didn't hear my warning. The
first time I ever saw the law of physics defied.

Richard came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've never
been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a lane I'd
not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt laid sometime
in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and I'm happily
trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped? (I was picking my way down with the front
brake on hard, the back brake off, whimpering steadily).

Stood up, weight well back, [censored] off the back of the saddle stylee, will
help unweight the front wheel, and allow you to easily pick the front wheel
up and onto/over the largest stones. Keeping the weight over the back means
the back end becomes relatively very stable and the front should almost be
allowed to do what it wants to do. A a relatively 'loose' grip of the bars
means the front end can waggle about somewhat but you shouldn't come to
grief if you don't try too hard to correct it. Sounds counter-intuitive,
but it does work. Just keep the bike pointing where you want to go without
trying too hard to pick a route, unless there are easy routes to pick or big
boulders to miss.

Speed can help a lot and especially if you have a relatively straight path.
If the track is very twisty then 'slowly does it' is safer.

Steering is most safely done with body language. Lean the bike over into
corners but move the body forwards a bit and and keep it slightly more
upright, which adds weight to the steering and can give a more positive
feel, providing it's not likely to wash out on very loose gravel, in which
case the body should lean into the corners and try to keep wheels as upright
as possible.

Braking is mostly done with the rear brake as it's now the most stable
wheel, unless there's plenty grip when the front can be used. Try to get
your braking done in plenty of time, before any corners or twists. It is
very likely that the wheel might step out and slide a little, but lean with
it and steer into the way it's skidding to correct it. If the rear _is_
skidding under braking, _don't_ use the front brake much.

If you're on a stable area and need to brake quickly then apply both brakes
and 'throw' your weight backwards. This gives an immediate effect and
reduces momentum/speed considerably in a very short time. It's a little
awkward to get right and is a technique that you could practice almost
anywhere before you need to use it in anger.

Fresh clean underwear when you reach the bottom is optional ... 😉

Have fun.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Richard said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've
never been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a
lane I'd not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt
laid sometime in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and
I'm happily trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at
this point, it turned to packed earth with very wet, large
(fist-sized) loose stones on increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several
years of my life later I finally manage to get to the bottom
unscathed, albeit with the odd bit of foot assist. So, mountain
bikers; what's the recommended technique for coping with these, to
avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel when they hit, briefly
grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways? Would speed have
helped? (I was picking my way down with the front brake on hard, the
back brake off, whimpering steadily).

Agree with the comments above (or below!) - especially minimising the use of
front brakes and using the rear brakes to pull yourself back in line if the
front wheel feeels like it's about to break away.....

in message <[email hidden]>, Richard

(') said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've
never
been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a lane I'd
not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt laid sometime
in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and I'm happily
trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones
on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped? (I was picking my way down with the front
brake on hard, the back brake off, whimpering steadily).

Provided you've got the nerve and the balance right, speed usually helps.
I lack both nerve and balance, sadly, and if you lose it at speed you
get hurt; so I tend to take many things slower than I ideally should.

The trick is to be out of the saddle (and on a descent, with your [censored]
actually behind it) standing on the pedals with the crank horizontal and
your knees slightly bent to act as shock absorbers. With your weight out
of the saddle you can more easily shift it about to correct your balance
as wheels step out.

The trick with the brakes is to do nothing suddenly. Sudden application
of the front brake will take you over the bars, while sudden application
of the back brake does nothing except further erode the surface of the
trail and wear out your tyres. Brake gently and progressively. I usually
use both brakes together when mountain biking, as, although the back
brake is much less effective than the front, you still have some braking
going on if the front wheel temporarily loses traction.

Remember there's no shame in getting off and walking down.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Roburt Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

Richard said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've never
been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a lane I'd
not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt laid sometime
in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and I'm happily
trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped? (I was picking my way down with the front
brake on hard, the back brake off, whimpering steadily).

R.

1) Dont look down, if you look at the rock you will hit it. Keep
looking forwards and think about the best trajectory.

2) Go for it. Keep pedalling straight and blast yourself a straight
line through the obstacles.

3) If you do not have forks, stand up with your knees slightly bent. Do
not grip the steering too tightly, let the bikes take its own course.

4) Only ever brake lightly with the front, if the front wheel locks you
are going down. Back wheel locks up more easily but you will not loose
control. Your rear brake is your best friend when it comes to limiting
speed down steep hills.

5) Scream and or swear loudly. It helps overcome the fear ;-)

GERONIMOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Roger said:

1) Dont look down, if you look at the rock you will hit it. Keep
looking forwards and think about the best trajectory.

Perhaps this could be more succinctly put as "look at where you want to
go". If you need to look down to see where you want to go then look
down, but Roger's advice concerning /not/ looking at things you wish to
avoid is spot on: you will be magnetically drawn to where you're looking.

Quoted message said:

2) Go for it. Keep pedalling straight and blast yourself a straight
line through the obstacles.

Though if you've got the benefit (?) of gravity as you zoom down hill I
think that stood up with the cranks horizontal and legs acting as
shockers may well make more sense.

Quoted message said:

3) If you do not have forks, stand up with your knees slightly bent.

I'm guessing he means "suspension forks"!

Quoted message said:

4) Only ever brake lightly with the front, if the front wheel locks you
are going down. Back wheel locks up more easily but you will not loose
control. Your rear brake is your best friend when it comes to limiting
speed down steep hills.

While its very true that locking the front is something to avoid, I'm
not entirely convinced that the back brake is more useful in limiting
speed down hills. The front brake is, for the most part, a far more
effective bit of kit than the back.

Quoted message said:

5) Scream and or swear loudly. It helps overcome the fear ;-)

I must try that...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Roger said:

3) If you do not have forks, stand up with your knees slightly bent.

I'm guessing he means "suspension forks"!

No, that's one of the recommended stances to take when your
front QR fails ;-)

--
Nobby Anderson

Peter Clinch said:

Roger wrote:

Quoted message said:

I'm guessing he means "suspension forks"!

Oh quite true. If you have no forks your best bet is a wheelie ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4) Only ever brake lightly with the front, if the front wheel locks you
are going down. Back wheel locks up more easily but you will not loose
control. Your rear brake is your best friend when it comes to limiting
speed down steep hills.

While its very true that locking the front is something to avoid, I'm
not entirely convinced that the back brake is more useful in limiting
speed down hills. The front brake is, for the most part, a far more
effective bit of kit than the back.

Believe me, if you lock your front wheel you hit the ground very
quickly. I have done extensive testing of this theory ;-) Not likely to
happen on tarmac but on brocked and rougth surfaces traction varies
suddenly.

Depends also on the terrain. On the stones he described you probably
would be better with light braking on both, but beware the front as the
risk on loose surfaces is not going over the bars but sudden wheel
locking. Braking to the point of occaional lockup on the back is very
effective on loose dirt (especially with chunky mtb tyres) and the only
method to use on scrubland, forest floors etc. Braking with your front
means you are limiting the ability of the front wheel to ride up over
obstacles.

Yes it does wear your rubber, but eating up tyres and inner tubes is a
fact of life in XC cycling. If you are going anywhere woody take at
least 2 spare inners (thorns), and if you are going on rocks take some
gaffer tape to patch slashed tyres from the inside.

Many thanks to all that replied. It appears my technique needs
improving - I was off the saddle with pedals in quarter-to-three
position (and as a consequence am not singing soprano), but I hadn't
realised the getting my [censored] backwards, looking ahead, and rear braking
techniques.

Dammit, now I want to go back out there and practice. *twitch* :-)

R.

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Quoted message said:

4) Only ever brake lightly with the front, if the front wheel locks
you are going down. Back wheel locks up more easily but you will not
loose control. Your rear brake is your best friend when it comes to
limiting speed down steep hills.

While its very true that locking the front is something to avoid, I'm
not entirely convinced that the back brake is more useful in limiting
speed down hills.

It's not, very. All it tends to do is tear up the surface of the trail,
causing erosion. I agree you do not want your front wheel to lock, but
that's a matter of sensitivity.

How long before we get mountain bikes with ABS?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.

Simon Brooke said:

How long before we get mountain bikes with ABS?

I thought you could get those from Toys'r'us or Asda?

...d

ABS plastic? Oh very droll.....

Simon Brooke said:

It's not, very. All it tends to do is tear up the surface of the trail,

Think things are not clear here. Your back wheel should not be locked
up solid, the point is you can brake up to the limit and if it does
lock you just need to slack off.

As for tearing up the trail, that depends where you are. Certinaly if
you are on a national park trail or something you should respect it. If
you are on muddy farm tracks where tractors and animals pass then dont
fret.

Roger said:

ABS plastic? Oh very droll.....

No, [censored] brakes that won't work (lock the wheels) after a short
while...

...d

Richard said:

So here I am, a lardy chap who trundles quite happily around the city,
the countryside, and off-road Sustransy tracks on a hybrid. I've never
been on anything remotely "rough". Saturday found me on a lane I'd
not been down before, doing a bit of exploring. Asphalt laid sometime
in the late 50s turned to very wet packed earth, and I'm happily
trundling downhill on this at a rate of knots...and at this point, it
turned to packed earth with very wet, large (fist-sized) loose stones on
increasingly deep tractor ruts. Several years of my life later I
finally manage to get to the bottom unscathed, albeit with the odd bit
of foot assist. So, mountain bikers; what's the recommended technique
for coping with these, to avoid rapid lateral movements of either wheel
when they hit, briefly grip, and then dislodge those buggers sideways?
Would speed have helped? (I was picking my way down with the front
brake on hard, the back brake off, whimpering steadily).

In addition to all the other advice given, relax your grip on the
handlebars and don't try to fight the handlebar motion induced by the
stones. Left to its own devices with a little gently guidance the bike
will right itself on its own after the front wheel is deflected by a stone.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Simon Brooke said:

How long before we get mountain bikes with ABS?

Not sure that we do. Nearly all the ABS systems I have known have been
quite inefficient in that once they have intervened the stopping is
quite poor. Exception is my most recent car, a Multipla with a modern 6
sensor system that reapplies the brakes like a machine gun. Great on
cars but I do **not** want something like that on a bike!

A simple ABS on the back could be a good idea, but the reason I hammer
on about the problems of front wheel lockups is that everything happens
so fast. At 50Kmh on a rougth downhill there is **no** time to even
notice the wheel has locked, let alone recover, the bike just whips out
from under you and leaves you planing straight to the ground. I cannot
see an ABS being able to cope with that.

There is a type of brake (invented but I do not believe currently in
production) that uses the wheel rotation to generate the force onto the
brake pads, the brake lever essentially operates a clutch to the
mechanism. In this way the wheel never locks up allthougth it is also
not capable of stopping the bike completely. Imagine one of these on
the rear and a conventional on the front.

Simon Brooke said:

How long before we get mountain bikes with ABS?

Been tried, been abandoned.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham