Looking for good rain tire 700C

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to find a good all around tire with good rain handling . Its for a cdale touring bike
my all-round ride. Living in Vancouver B. C. Any ideas or suggestion kindly received . Klaas

Avocet. Their tires are accurately labeled as to size (at least their latest ones are) and are,
correctly, treadless. If you ride on roads tread accomplishes only to reduce your traction on dry or
wet roads.

Because of their stubborn adhesion (get it?) to the slick design, they will likely never have a good
market share, because most tire buyers assume that a tread means better traction. Which it doesn't,
for bikes on hard surfaces.

Sheldon Brown stocks them.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

klass-<< I'm trying to find a good all around tire with good rain handling . Its for a cdale touring
bike my all-round ride. Living in Vancouver B. C. Any ideas or suggestion kindly received .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

If they will fit, Conti Top Touring in 28c..

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet conditions is a better way to go
than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles that switch to treaded rain tires from slicks when
it gets wet.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:

: If they will fit, Conti Top Touring in 28c..

Much though I hate to disagree with Pete, Top Touring have about the worst handling in the wet of
any tyre I've used. I use them on my fixie commuter because of there pretty-much-puncture-proof
nature, but you don't exactly corner fast on fixed.

I (and others) find them a little slippy in the wet when cornering on tarmac.

Arthur (in the wet UK)

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Peter Chisholm said:

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet conditions is a better way to
go than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles that switch to treaded rain tires from slicks
when it gets wet.

What "most" agree about is just fine, if your goal is to be a sheep.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.13.htmlOpen ↗

Tom Ace

I can see the old Avocet Fast Grip tire ads with the rider leaning into a wet turn. Smooth tread is
fine unless you're taking turns at a speed where hydroplaning is a problem---not likely.

"Tom Ace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Chisholm said:

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet

conditions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is a better way to go than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

switch to treaded rain tires from slicks when it gets wet.

What "most" agree about is just fine, if your goal is to be a sheep.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.13.htmlOpen ↗

Tom Ace

"B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

I can see the old Avocet Fast Grip tire ads with the rider leaning into a wet turn.

It's my understanding that the very rider pictured in those ads makes the occasional appearance on
this very news group...

Quoted message said:

Smooth tread is fine unless you're taking turns at a speed where hydroplaning is a problem---
not likely.

As the FAQ states, even smooth treaded motorcycle tires aren't prone to hydroplaning.

Robert Canon said:

Quoted message said:

I can see the old Avocet Fast Grip tire ads with the rider leaning into a wet turn.

Quoted message said:

It's my understanding that the very rider pictured in those ads makes the occasional appearance on
this very news group...

The wet cornering was Dave MacLaughlin, the dry road was Jobst Brandt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Smooth tread is fine unless you're taking turns at a speed where hydroplaning is a problem---not
likely.

Quoted message said:

As the FAQ states, even smooth treaded motorcycle tires aren't prone to hydroplaning.

Patterned tread does nothing for a bicycle unless the tire can make an impression on the road, as in
soft dirt.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

klass-<< I'm trying to find a good all around tire with good rain handling . Its for a cdale
touring bike my all-round ride. Living in Vancouver B. C. Any ideas or suggestion kindly received
. >><BR><BR>

If they will fit, Conti Top Touring in 28c..

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet conditions is a better way to
go than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles that switch to treaded rain tires from slicks
when it gets wet.

Peter Chisholm

Dear Peter,

For bicycles, grooved tread may not help any more in the wet than it does on dry pavement.

A grooved tread may help more of a car's wide, flat steam-roller contact patch reach the pavement
through a thin film of water, but bicycle tires by their very nature have a comparatively long,
thin contact patch that already does about as good a job of cutting through a thin film of water as
is possible.

Or so I hear.

Carl Fogel

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

klass-<< I'm trying to find a good all around tire with good rain handling . Its for a cdale
touring bike my all-round ride. Living in Vancouver B. C. Any ideas or suggestion kindly received
. >><BR><BR>

If they will fit, Conti Top Touring in 28c..

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet conditions is a better way to
go than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles that switch to treaded rain tires from slicks
when it gets wet.

TAKE COVER MATILDA!!!!!

Peter is going against the Bicycle FAQ: 8b.13 Tires with smooth tread faqs.orgsectionOpen ↗
11.html

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message

Quoted message said:

As for tread or slick, I think most would agree that tread for wet conditions is a better way to
go than slick, just like race cars or motorcycles that switch to treaded rain tires from slicks
when it gets wet.

Peter Chisholm

Peter,

Do you disagree with the FAQ that Jobst wrote on this subject? See

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.13.htmlOpen ↗

Note that the profile of a bicycle tire is substantially different from that of that used on a car,
and motorcycle tires are addressed in Jobst's writing below:

"It is evident that the tread on current motorcycles is essentially smooth except for some widely
spaced artistic lines. The flat and smooth areas between them are many times as large as bicycle
tire contact patches. These tires are neither directional nor do they have micro sipes or any
"drainage" grooves. When I read bicycle tire advertisements today, they remind me of motorcycle tire
ads from magazines of 40 years ago. ...

Jobst Brandt"

Bill Putnam

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Canon said:

Quoted message said:

I can see the old Avocet Fast Grip tire ads with the rider leaning into a wet turn.

Quoted message said:

It's my understanding that the very rider pictured in those ads makes the occasional appearance
on this very news group...

The wet cornering was Dave MacLaughlin, the dry road was Jobst Brandt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Smooth tread is fine unless you're taking turns at a speed where hydroplaning is a problem---
not likely.

Quoted message said:

As the FAQ states, even smooth treaded motorcycle tires aren't prone to hydroplaning.

Patterned tread does nothing for a bicycle unless the tire can make an impression on the road, as
in soft dirt.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Would someone know where to access these photos?

Thanks, Robin Hubert

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Canon said:

> I can see the old Avocet Fast Grip tire ads with the rider leaning into a wet turn.

Quoted message said:

It's my understanding that the very rider pictured in those ads makes the occasional
appearance on this very news group...

The wet cornering was Dave MacLaughlin, the dry road was Jobst Brandt.

Quoted message said:

> Smooth tread is fine unless you're taking turns at a speed where hydroplaning is a problem---
> not likely.

Quoted message said:

As the FAQ states, even smooth treaded motorcycle tires aren't prone to hydroplaning.

Patterned tread does nothing for a bicycle unless the tire can make an impression on the road,
as in soft dirt.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Would someone know where to access these photos?

Here's the "dry road" photo (amazing):

www-www-Open ↗
math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/Gallery/tiretest.jpg

A usually reliable source said:

Baaaaa...I guess Jobst said it, it must be true. I'm not a tire engineer but like I said,
rain tires for motorcycles and racing cars, always have tread when compared to 'dry'
tires..why is this??

Also all aircraft tires I have seen on A/C I have flown have tread as well, so there is someplace
for the water to go, under the tire.

Why are all the 'rain' tires now produced for the auto industry treaded? Why not slick??

Because wide, low-pressure tires, traveling at high speeds, are at risk of a phenomenon called
"hydroplaning" in which the tire actually "surfs" on top of a layer of water.

Here's the relevant entry from my Bicycle Glossary:

"Hydroplaning

"When an automobile is driven fast on wet roads, especially if it has worn-out tires, a cushion of
water can build up under the tires, preventing the rubber from contacting the road. This is very
scary and dangerous, because it leads to a total loss of traction.

"Fortunately for cyclists, this cannot happen to a bicycle; they don't go fast enough, nor have
a large enough contact patch, nor do the tires run at a low enough pressure to make
hydroplaning possible.

"Even with automobiles, actual hydroplaning is very rare. It is a much more real problem for
aircraft landing on wet runways. The aviation industry has studied this problem very carefully,
and has come up with a general guidline as to when hydroplaning is a risk. The formula used in the
aviation industry is:

"Speed (in knots) = 9 X the square root of the tire pressure (in psi.) Here's a table calculated
from this formula:

[table snipped, 'cause it doesn't display well in ASCII, but you can see it at:
"]http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_h.html#hydroplaning]

"An ill-founded fear of hydroplaning often leads people to buy bicycle tires with inefficient tread
patterns, when they would be better off with slicks."

Sheldon "Bald Is Beautiful" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------+
| Education consists mainly in what we have unlearned. | --Mark Twain |
+--------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Baaaaa...I guess Jobst said it, it must be true. I'm not a tire engineer but like I said,
rain tires for motorcycles and racing cars, always have tread when compared to 'dry'
tires..why is this??

Because (as has been explained here before) the speed at which you can aquaplane is a function of
the tyre width, profile and pressure. Bicycles have narrow round-profile tyres at high pressure, and
as such the aquaplaning speed is impossibly high.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I can only speak from experience, they seem to work well on my fixie/commuter, where I slog thru
: the slush/H2O on these winter days...

I run them on my fixie as well for commuting. But then, fixed for commuting means I always corner
slow anyway.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune clune.orgclune.orgOpen ↗ "Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Tom-<< What "most" agree about is just fine, if your goal is to be a sheep.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.13.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Baaaaa...I guess Jobst said it, it must be true. I'm not a tire engineer but like I said,
rain tires for motorcycles and racing cars, always have tread when compared to 'dry'
tires..why is this??

Cars need tread because of their large, square, lightly loaded contact patch. With motorcycles,
tread patterns are merely wear indicators, or for looks -- just as with bicycles. I believe all this
is all covered in the FAQ -- written by an actual engineer.

Quoted message said:

Also all aircraft tires I have seen on A/C I have flown have tread as well, so there is someplace
for the water to go, under the tire.

Again, they're wear indicators. Measuring tire diameter would be inconvenient, and probably not
accurate enough. Tread grooves show tire condition from several yards away.

Another reason for tread grooves is to reduce the stiffening effect of the tread rubber, and allow
the casing to flex more easily. Finer slits (sipes) allow the rubber itself to flex more easily, to
conform to the road surface. However, this is only for very low traction situations, such as snow
and ice, and probably not applicable to bicycles.

Matt O.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Baaaaa...I guess Jobst said it, it must be true. I'm not a tire engineer but like I said,
rain tires for motorcycles and racing cars, always have tread when compared to 'dry'
tires..why is this??

much higher speeds. Different contact patch shape.

Quoted message said:

Also all aircraft tires I have seen on A/C I have flown have tread as well, so there is someplace
for the water to go, under the tire.

What you have seen are wear indicator grooves. When the tires are completely smooth, you know the
tread is worn.

Quoted message said:

Why are all the 'rain' tires now produced for the auto industry treaded? Why not slick??

Higher speeds and a wide and shallow contact patch. Bicycles have a narrow and deep contact patch.
-----------------
Alex

Matt:

One of the reasons I changed from Michelin SuperCompHDs to Continental GPs long ago was because I
didn't like the feel of the Michelins on any road. They always felt like they squrmed under me,
whereas the Conti GPs felt "well connected". I returned to the Michelins a couple times on the
occasion of a flat with the Contis but the feel of the Michelins always bothered me. I attributed
this to the soft compound of the Michelins squirming on the road surface & the siping of the GPs.

FWIW, I returned to Michelins last year and don't feel that "disconnectedness" with the newer tires.
Different compounds firming up the tread? That's my guess.

MOO, Matt

Matt O'Toole said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Tom-<< What "most" agree about is just fine, if your goal is to be a sheep.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.13.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

><BR><BR>

Baaaaa...I guess Jobst said it, it must be true. I'm not a tire engineer but like I said,
rain tires for motorcycles and racing cars, always have tread when compared to 'dry'
tires..why is this??

Cars need tread because of their large, square, lightly loaded contact patch. With motorcycles,
tread patterns are merely wear indicators, or for looks -- just as with bicycles. I believe all
this is all covered in the FAQ -- written by an actual engineer.

Quoted message said:

Also all aircraft tires I have seen on A/C I have flown have tread as well, so there is someplace
for the water to go, under the tire.

Again, they're wear indicators. Measuring tire diameter would be inconvenient, and probably not
accurate enough. Tread grooves show tire condition from several yards away.

Another reason for tread grooves is to reduce the stiffening effect of the tread rubber, and allow
the casing to flex more easily. Finer slits (sipes) allow the rubber itself to flex more easily, to
conform to the road surface. However, this is only for very low traction situations, such as snow
and ice, and probably not applicable to bicycles.

Matt O.

Matt Locker said:

One of the reasons I changed from Michelin SuperCompHDs to Continental GPs long ago was because I
didn't like the feel of the Michelins on any road. They always felt like they squrmed under me,
whereas the Conti GPs felt "well connected". I returned to the Michelins a couple times on the
occasion of a flat with the Contis but the feel of the Michelins always bothered me. I attributed
this to the soft compound of the Michelins squirming on the road surface & the siping of the GPs.

FWIW, I returned to Michelins last year and don't feel that "disconnectedness" with the newer
tires. Different compounds firming up the tread? That's my guess.

It could be. One can definately feel differences between rubber compounds and tread features with
knobby MTB tires on pavement. I doubt there's much difference between road tires, but it could be
enough that they feel different -- rubber compound anyway, probably not siping.

Matt O.