Looking for a little knee help...

in message <[email hidden]>,
Coyoteboy ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

First thought is that you should talk to an experienced practitioner of
sports injury medicine - advice from the likes of me given over the
internet is potentially dangerous...

Having said that:

Quoted message said:

My thought is that either a) I've adjusted my seat strangely having
had the seatpost snappage - it might be slightly higher than normal,
but I find it MUCH easier to ride with the seat higher and my knee is
still fairly bent. b) I have over-stressed the knee in the cold by
trying to maintain 20mph uphill in the first mile.

It sounds to me as if you have your saddle too low and are using too high a
gear. Obviously you must not completely straighten your knee when
pedalling. But you should very nearly straighten it. If you bounce in the
saddle at all when spinning under full power it's too low. Conversely, if
you need to rock your pelvis to reach the bottom of the stroke it's too
high. I'd raise is two or three millimetres at a time until your pelvis
starts to rock, and then lower it until it just stops rocking. At this
point you will almost certainly not be able to get both tiptoes on the
ground at the same time, while sat in the saddle.

This is advice only on how to set up the bike after the injury has
recovered. It is not advice on how to recover from the injury.

Quoted message said:

Any help appreciated, i'll end up going to the docs but all he will do
is tell me to go and pay a physio, which i cant afford right now.

If you have an injury, the NHS should treat it - that's what we pay for it
for. And it sounds to me as if you have a potentially disabling injury, if
you just ignore it.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

:: Wisdom is better than weapons of war ::
:: Ecclesiastes 9:18 ::

Coyoteboy said the following on 29/03/2007 10:12:

Quoted message said:

At the end of last week (thurs) I sheared the bolt in my
seatpost and had to ride the remaining 10 miles home with no saddle,
but still managed to average 15mph which was pleasing.

20 years or so ago I used to ride my MTB without a saddle permanently
because it kept getting in the way. That didn't directly cause me knee
problems, I don't think...

Quoted message said:

I got about a mile into the
ride, began to push up a hill and felt something "give" in my left
knee. It hurt a fair bit at the rear of my leg - sort of in front of
my left hand major tendon at the back of my knee.

That sounds like something that happened to me, although not through
cycling. I can still hear the "crack" echoing around the empty artic
trailer...

Quoted message said:

My thought is that either a) I've adjusted my seat strangely having
had the seatpost snappage - it might be slightly higher than normal,
but I find it MUCH easier to ride with the seat higher and my knee is
still fairly bent. b) I have over-stressed the knee in the cold by
trying to maintain 20mph uphill in the first mile.

a) sounds quite likely. Have you adjusted the saddle height to the
correct height, rather than what feels comfortable? That might sound
like a contradiction, but isn't. Basically sitting on the saddle you
should be able to put your instep on the pedal at the 6 o/c position
with your leg almost straight, without rocking your hips. It sounds as
if you may actually not have it quite high enough. (the "higher" and
"still fairly bent" bit)

b) is entirely possible, but I'm speaking from what I think happens to
me rather than any medical background. I do need to consciously make an
effort to warm up before doing much exertion. My knee was burning a few
weeks ago through trying to go up a steep off-road hill in the cold just
a mile from home. The same hill after about 5 miles or so isn't a
problem (well, not for my knee anyway!)

Quoted message said:

I get this same pain, exactly, when swimming in the sea with fins on,
during a leg-straightening kick - only in that situation my knee
actually clunks progressively more, feeling like the lower half of the
knee joint is sliding out of its position backwards then clunking back
in.

That's the one. Does your knee also sometimes give way for little
apparent reason? In my case it's a problem I have for life, but I just
work around it. It doesn't generally affect my cycling. When
hill-walking, it takes me as long to come down mountains as it does to
go up to protect my knee!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Quoted message said:

Any help appreciated, i'll end up going to the docs but all he will do
is tell me to go and pay a physio, which i cant afford right now.

A sports physio will cost about £30ish for a diagnosis and treatment. If
you've got the money it could be £30 well spent. If not, get an
appointment with the doc as soon as possible and ask to get referred to a
physio.

If you tell the doc that it's stopping you from doing sport, and you want
to start again they should happily send you off to the physio.
Occasionally they won't. Ask the reasons then change your doctor if you
don't agree with them.

NHS physios are generally good, but things can take a long time. A lot of
sports-type injuries are best dealt with quickly. If you've got the money
a private sports injury physio will get you a quicker diagnosis.

I wouldn't even bother with a physio or anything. They're great at their
craft, but can't tell you what's actually gone wrong inside the knee.

I'd be banging on the door of my GP getting a referral to a knee clinic
or something for X-Rays and Scans on the knee.

I ruptured my quadriceps tendon twice. Complete rupture so know what
knee pain can do and how much you take it for granted. Do not take if
for granted.

If you don't mind me asking, what's your age?

It could in all honesty be a number of things. If you lie on your back,
can you raise your leg straight? Are kicking motions affected? How is
your knee stability? Can you lift your leg up backwards?

If you're looking for some more not quite expert, but a great community
on knees, get over to http://www.kneeguru.co.uk

You could just have a slipping tendon (Im thinking quadriceps and
patellar) or you could have something worse, like a partial tear which
might need to be placed in a cast for a short while to promote healing.

Cya
Simon

Coyoteboy said:

G'day all,

I'm looking for a little knowledge from experienced folks here if i
can.

I have spent the last month building up from a 15km off-road ride
every other weekend to 4x 17mile road rides to work (one way each day,
in on monday, out on tues, in on thurs, out on fri). I and a friend
who i meet part way had been doing very well for a months progress,
averaging 17mph last week, concentrating on getting a decent circular
pedalling motion. I normally struggle with leg strength, not
"fitness". At the end of last week (thurs) I sheared the bolt in my
seatpost and had to ride the remaining 10 miles home with no saddle,
but still managed to average 15mph which was pleasing.

This week I felt a little low, but I put it down to mental weakness -
couldnt be arsed getting up in the cold etc. Monday I had to meet
someone so didnt ride, tuesday I rode in but only averaged 15 and it
really hurt in a fitness manner, but my legs seemed stronger after the
pounding on the thursday and subsequent recovery. Well today I came to
ride in and felt weak from the start - both strength and fitness, but
more lacking in "torque" than normal. I got about a mile into the
ride, began to push up a hill and felt something "give" in my left
knee. It hurt a fair bit at the rear of my leg - sort of in front of
my left hand major tendon at the back of my knee. Well it totally
stuffed my ride, dropped to an average of 13 and had no ability to get
any torque - spinning it was fine but i quickly got out of breath at a
speed that was comfy. The pain soon spread to the back of my kneecap
with my, now odd, pedalling routine.

As we speak I am struggling to lift my foot backwards (as if to get my
foot up to the pedal). The pain mainly occurs when trying to "sweep"
backwards, but leaves me to some extent if I a) sit more upright and
b)try to keep my heel low while pedalling.

Looking for cause and solution...

My thought is that either a) I've adjusted my seat strangely having
had the seatpost snappage - it might be slightly higher than normal,
but I find it MUCH easier to ride with the seat higher and my knee is
still fairly bent. b) I have over-stressed the knee in the cold by
trying to maintain 20mph uphill in the first mile.

I get this same pain, exactly, when swimming in the sea with fins on,
during a leg-straightening kick - only in that situation my knee
actually clunks progressively more, feeling like the lower half of the
knee joint is sliding out of its position backwards then clunking back
in.

Any help appreciated, i'll end up going to the docs but all he will do
is tell me to go and pay a physio, which i cant afford right now.

Cheers
James

Simon Dean proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

I ruptured my quadriceps tendon twice. Complete rupture so know what
knee pain can do and how much you take it for granted. Do not take if
for granted.

Ouch!

Quoted message said:

If you don't mind me asking, what's your age?

26, just turned. Fairly hefty background in cycling but nothing competitive.
Not really cycled "properly" for many years. When i was 16-18 i had knee
problems where the doc said some of my thigh muscles were too strong for
the others and it was pulling my kneecap into a funny position. I used to
live 24/7 with burning knees but that left me when i turned approx 20.
Though that was also the time i stopped cycling so much.

Quoted message said:

It could in all honesty be a number of things. If you lie on your back,
can you raise your leg straight?

Yep, no pain. This is the exercise i was told to do when i had my original
knee problems when i was younger.

Quoted message said:

Are kicking motions affected?

Not that i can sense, although im not actually impacting anything.

Quoted message said:

How is
your knee stability? Can you lift your leg up backwards?

Immediately after the event (12 hours) it was fairly weak and I couldnt
raise my lower leg behind me properly (it hurt a little and just didnt feel
like my muscles could physically move it). Possibly just a side effect,
from using the knee in a funny way to minimise pain, having tired out the
supporting muscles? Today it seems much better, i can lift it but I have
pains behind the ouside rear of my kneecap in that knee and the original
tendon-type pain. The original pain is still there when i pedalled up the
road to the shop (just to see how it felt today, nothing hard) and sweep
backwards on the pedal.

Quoted message said:

If you're looking for some more not quite expert, but a great community
on knees, get over to http://www.kneeguru.co.uk

Ooh, good link! Thanks! I'll try to get my doc to refer me i think, as I
just cant cover the costs of physio at the mo anyway (partially the reason
i was riding to work!)

Quoted message said:

You could just have a slipping tendon (Im thinking quadriceps and
patellar) or you could have something worse, like a partial tear which
might need to be placed in a cast for a short while to promote healing.

Cya
Simon

Lol, thanks for the scary diagnosis! But very helpful, I've more to look
into now.

Thanks
James

Mark Thompson proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

A sports physio will cost about £30ish for a diagnosis and treatment. If
you've got the money it could be £30 well spent. If not, get an
appointment with the doc as soon as possible and ask to get referred to a
physio.

If you tell the doc that it's stopping you from doing sport, and you want
to start again they should happily send you off to the physio.
Occasionally they won't. Ask the reasons then change your doctor if you
don't agree with them.

NHS physios are generally good, but things can take a long time. A lot of
sports-type injuries are best dealt with quickly. If you've got the money
a private sports injury physio will get you a quicker diagnosis.

I think this may be my route, though it wont be quick - i just cant afford
to shell out £30s for now - id choose to just refrain from riding until I
got seen.

--
J
__________________________________________
http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net << My personal site
http://www.aoskc.com << Ainsdale Kitesurf Club

Paul Boyd proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Thanks for your detailed answer - I'm going to have a shot at re-adjusting
my seating properly. I do tend to use the bike offroad too and often shift
the post up and down so its highly likely ive just put it back i a dodgy
location at 6:30am with my eyes half closed lol.

--
J
__________________________________________
http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net << My personal site
http://www.aoskc.com << Ainsdale Kitesurf Club

Paul Boyd proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

That sounds like something that happened to me, although not through
cycling. I can still hear the "crack" echoing around the empty artic
trailer...

Mine have done this for years, about 15 degrees from straight as i stand up
from stooping 🙂

Simon Brooke proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me as if you have your saddle too low and are using too high
a gear. Obviously you must not completely straighten your knee when
pedalling. But you should very nearly straighten it. If you bounce in the
saddle at all when spinning under full power it's too low. Conversely, if
you need to rock your pelvis to reach the bottom of the stroke it's too
high. I'd raise is two or three millimetres at a time until your pelvis
starts to rock, and then lower it until it just stops rocking. At this
point you will almost certainly not be able to get both tiptoes on the
ground at the same time, while sat in the saddle.

Funny, youre about the 5th person to tell me my saddle is too low - i had
thought it might be too high! well I've found some info both here and the
web on how to correctly set it all up so im going to run through it
systematically to try to prevent future problems.

As for repairing my knee - im going for total rest for a week to start
with - its a good excuse 🙂

Coyoteboy said:

Simon Brooke proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me as if you have your saddle too low and are using too high
a gear. Obviously you must not completely straighten your knee when
pedalling. But you should very nearly straighten it. If you bounce in the
saddle at all when spinning under full power it's too low. Conversely, if
you need to rock your pelvis to reach the bottom of the stroke it's too
high. I'd raise is two or three millimetres at a time until your pelvis
starts to rock, and then lower it until it just stops rocking. At this
point you will almost certainly not be able to get both tiptoes on the
ground at the same time, while sat in the saddle.

Funny, youre about the 5th person to tell me my saddle is too low - i had
thought it might be too high! well I've found some info both here and the
web on how to correctly set it all up so im going to run through it
systematically to try to prevent future problems.

yup can do that. taking my dads bike out last week i noticed after a
short , trip it gave me sore knees.

Quoted message said:

As for repairing my knee - im going for total rest for a week to start
with - its a good excuse 🙂

roger

In article <[email hidden]>, Coyoteboy
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke proclaimed to uk.rec.cycling ...

Quoted message said:

It sounds to me as if you have your saddle too low and are using too high
a gear. Obviously you must not completely straighten your knee when
pedalling. But you should very nearly straighten it. If you bounce in the
saddle at all when spinning under full power it's too low. Conversely, if
you need to rock your pelvis to reach the bottom of the stroke it's too
high. I'd raise is two or three millimetres at a time until your pelvis
starts to rock, and then lower it until it just stops rocking. At this
point you will almost certainly not be able to get both tiptoes on the
ground at the same time, while sat in the saddle.

Funny, youre about the 5th person to tell me my saddle is too low - i had
thought it might be too high! well I've found some info both here and the
web on how to correctly set it all up so im going to run through it
systematically to try to prevent future problems.

As for repairing my knee - im going for total rest for a week to start
with - its a good excuse 🙂

Aspirin, cod liver oil, alternating hot and cold compresses, keep the
leg elevated as much as you can, move the knee gently through the full
range of normal movement (or as much as you can manage without forcing
it) to stop it from seizing up. The most difficult thing is resting it
enough, and building up gradually when you get back on the bike.

On Mar 29, 1:05 pm, Mark Thompson

pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com said:

Quoted message said:

Any help appreciated, i'll end up going to the docs but all he will do
is tell me to go and pay a physio, which i cant afford right now.

A sports physio will cost about £30ish for a diagnosis and treatment. If
you've got the money it could be £30 well spent. If not, get an
appointment with the doc as soon as possible and ask to get referred to a
physio.

If you tell the doc that it's stopping you from doing sport, and you want
to start again they should happily send you off to the physio.
Occasionally they won't. Ask the reasons then change your doctor if you
don't agree with them.

NHS physios are generally good, but things can take a long time. A lot of
sports-type injuries are best dealt with quickly. If you've got the money
a private sports injury physio will get you a quicker diagnosis.

how much was the surgery? did you have to wait? check out this place
http://www.medimexicooptions.com they do knees and did my father in
laws..they discovered that his knees were fine! but that he had had
cortisone injections in canada(which they never use in mexico)and it
does not dissi[pate but built up and was all gunky inside. he had
surgery to clean out all the gunk, like snow, wash the ligimants etc
and he is fine, good thing he did not wait for a year on the hospital
list and good thing he did not let hem replace the knee [censored] nilly!
check the site out medimexicooptions.com. great outfit, someone was
with himthe entire time translating his every wish, very professional
too, thet took the time to do lots of test but really, he left on
friday and came back one week later able to walk.

<

Mark Thompson said:

> Any help appreciated, i'll end up going to the docs but all he will do is tell me to go and pay a physio, which i cant afford right now.

A sports physio will cost about £30ish for a diagnosis and treatment. If
you've got the money it could be £30 well spent. If not, get an
appointment with the doc as soon as possible and ask to get referred to a
physio.

If you tell the doc that it's stopping you from doing sport, and you want
to start again they should happily send you off to the physio.
Occasionally they won't. Ask the reasons then change your doctor if you
don't agree with them.

NHS physios are generally good, but things can take a long time. A lot of
sports-type injuries are best dealt with quickly. If you've got the money
a private sports injury physio will get you a quicker diagnosis.

Is the right answer