Look, or Speedplay?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by artl
Hotspots with high quality shoes don't exist...they only exist with poorly designed shoes.

And I suppose that Lance's custom Nike shoes were poorly designed as well, since prior to the new Shimano "look" pedals, he insisted on using the 10yr old SHimano "look" design instead of the smaller SPDs.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
And I suppose that Lance's custom Nike shoes were poorly designed as well, since prior to the new Shimano "look" pedals, he insisted on using the 10yr old SHimano "look" design instead of the smaller SPDs.

Lets not forget, that Lance has the power to pretty much have whatever he wants custom designed because it is what he likes and because he can.

Hell, my Alden Loafers are nice, but I would still get some custom made if I had not spent all my money on my bike.😄

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
And I suppose that Lance's custom Nike shoes were poorly designed as well, since prior to the new Shimano "look" pedals, he insisted on using the 10yr old SHimano "look" design instead of the smaller SPDs.

good point. can also happen with poorly designed pedals!

the shoe to cleat interface with the spd design is much smaller and less solid than most including speedplay.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
And I suppose that Lance's custom Nike shoes were poorly designed as well, since prior to the new Shimano "look" pedals, he insisted on using the 10yr old SHimano "look" design instead of the smaller SPDs.

Okay, so here's a very simple question: If you have a rigid shoe, does it matter what size the pedal is? The answer should be intuitive to anyone. The size of the pedal is not even a consideration if the platform (the shoe) maintains rigidity despite the deformation force from the pedal.

An example: 1) Cut out a shoe outline from a piece of quarter inch plate steel. 2) Put it on a pedal, any pedal 3) Stand on it. Can you feel the pedal?

Hotspots occur for two reasons, poorly designed shoes, or poorly fitting shoes.
With regard to your reference to Lance Armstrong, I have no idea what you're talking about. If he thinks hotspots occur because of the size of a pedal I wouldn't be surprised, since myths like this occur everywhere. Being a world class cyclist doesn't say anthing about his knowledge of human factors engineering.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by artl
Okay, so here's a very simple question: If you have a rigid shoe, does it matter what size the pedal is? The answer should be intuitive to anyone. The size of the pedal is not even a consideration if the platform (the shoe) maintains rigidity despite the deformation force from the pedal.

An example: 1) Cut out a shoe outline from a piece of quarter inch plate steel. 2) Put it on a pedal, any pedal 3) Stand on it. Can you feel the pedal?

Hotspots occur for two reasons, poorly designed shoes, or poorly fitting shoes.
With regard to your reference to Lance Armstrong, I have no idea what you're talking about. If he thinks hotspots occur because of the size of a pedal I wouldn't be surprised, since myths like this occur everywhere. Being a world class cyclist doesn't say anthing about his knowledge of human factors engineering.

- So, prior to the new Shimano "look" pedal design, were Lance's custom Nike's inferior? 🙄
- And what about Toni Romiger. Are Sidi Genius shoes inferior? 🙄
- And the Castorama team of the mid to late 90s. Jacky Durant? I recall them carbon soled Shimano's. Were those shoes inferior as well? 🙄

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
- So, prior to the new Shimano "look" pedal design, were Lance's custom Nike's inferior? 🙄
- And what about Toni Romiger. Are Sidi Genius shoes inferior? 🙄
- And the Castorama team of the mid to late 90s. Jacky Durant? I recall them carbon soled Shimano's. Were those shoes inferior as well? 🙄

First of all, the inference that you're making that I implied certain shoes were inferior is downright silly. I'm truly sorry you can't understand simple facts. To help you understand: there's no correlation between your examples of who's wearing what shoes and what we're discussing here. Can you answer the simple question I asked related to sole rigidity?

Also, a quick tutorial: What professionals wear has more to do with what they're paid versus what they prefer. Since all top quality shoes work well, it's a question of fit, and how much the sponsors will pay them.

"Hotspots" have nothing to do with pedals, they're all about proper design and fit of cycling shoes.

P.S. You should see an MD about your eye problems.
Grow up. Learn to recognize simple facts.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by artl
First of all, the inference that you're making that I implied certain shoes were inferior is downright silly. I'm truly sorry you can't understand simple facts. To help you understand: there's no correlation between your examples of who's wearing what shoes and what we're discussing here. Can you answer the simple question I asked related to sole rigidity?

Also, a quick tutorial: What professionals wear has more to do with what they're paid versus what they prefer. Since all top quality shoes work well, it's a question of fit, and how much the sponsors will pay them.

"Hotspots" have nothing to do with pedals, they're all about proper design and fit of cycling shoes.

P.S. You should see an MD about your eye problems.
Grow up. Learn to recognize simple facts.

Can someone who has been involved in Bike Racing explain to this baffler what has been going on the past 10 years. Anyone who has read Velonews, Cyclesport, ProCycling, etc.

Its been well documented in Velonews, Cyclesport, and other mags about Lance used old Shimano "look" pedals even while Shimano was still making SPDs. This isn't even an opion. It's fact. He chose to go against what the sponsor was providing. There are pictures that support this. He's not the only one either. Lot of pros didn't like the old SPDs because of the hotspot caused by the small platform. Toni Rominger used the old Shimano "look" set-up even before Lance. And he was on Sidi's. I suppose those are inferior also. 🙄 Gee, now that I think of it. The entire French Castorama team in the mid 90s switched from SPD's to the old Shimano "look" pedals. They must have ALL been on inferior shoes! And since they switched from the lighter, smaller SPD's to the older Shimano "look"s, it must have been because the secretly liked heavier weight 🙄 . Why do you think Shimano ditched their SPD design and went back to a "look" type design?Maaaaayyyybbbbbeeee it did have something to do with a wider platform?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
- So, prior to the new Shimano "look" pedal design, were Lance's custom Nike's inferior? 🙄
- And what about Toni Romiger. Are Sidi Genius shoes inferior? 🙄
- And the Castorama team of the mid to late 90s. Jacky Durant? I recall them carbon soled Shimano's. Were those shoes inferior as well? 🙄

i'm not following where you're going with this. so he's got custom Nike shoes. did he say he needed them because of pedals or because he has funky shaped feet? i've got 8EEE feet and would kill for custom shoes.

it seems to me that lance's choice was more of a judgement on the previous generation SPD road pedals. those were not up to the standards of the Looks, the Times, and as much as you hate to admit it, the Speedplays. 🙄

if you've got flimsy soled shoes, you might get hotspots. if you've got poorly fitting shoes, you might get hotspots. if you've got [censored] for pedals with poor lateral support (spds) you can get hotspots.

how has this developed into a blanket statement about sidi and shimano shoes being bad? 🙄

i don't get hotspots on my speedplays. i never got hotspots on my old times.

i kinda see where you're going now. maybe Artl should have said, "if you have well designed pedals, hotspots with high quality shoes don't exist...they only exist with poorly designed shoes or ill fitting ones."?!?

imho, the prior spd design, while maybe good for MTB'ing was not well suited for road riding because of the small cleat/pedal interface. this design flaw isn't there with the speedplays, even if they have that "ice-cube" feeling (free float)

Lance never liked the smaller SPDs because of the hotspot sensation it created. This was when the team was sponsored by Shimano and SPD was their flagship pedal. Lance, Toni Rominger, Jacky Durant, Christophe Moreau, the entire Castorama team, all ditched the smallish pedals and went to using older Shimano "look" type pedals that weren't even being manufactured by Shimano anymore.

Artl said that hotspots are cause by inferior shoes. Lance was using custom Nike's. Toni Rominger was using Sid Genius. Jacky Durant was on Shimano carbon soled shoes, etc. etc. After years of pros just ditching the pedals they were supposed to be using, Shimano themselves decided to ditch the smallish SPD design in favor of the redeisgned new Shimano "look" pedals. The point is, Lance, Rominger, Durant, Moreaux, etc. etc. were not using inferior shoes. But one thing they all had in common was the pedal system. With regards to the redal/shoe interface, hotspot has more to do with the pedal itself than the shoes

Drewsky, he only didn't say it cause he doesn't believe it. 😉 Don't put words in his mouth.

There seems to be some confusion here, let me try and clear it up for you (if you are still confused :p ).

artl believes that hot spots can not be caused by the pedals and are the result of less than adequate shoes.

bacardi believes that hot spots can be caused by badly designed pedals.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by RagingSpirit
Drewsky, he only didn't say it cause he doesn't believe it. 😉 Don't put words in his mouth.

There seems to be some confusion here, let me try and clear it up for you (if you are still confused :p ).

artl believes that hot spots can not be caused by the pedals and are the result of less than adequate shoes.

bacardi believes that hot spots can be caused by badly designed pedals.

yes, more or less 😄

I'm still struggling with how you can entirely miss the point. I'll use the same really simple example to attempt to explain. Let me know if it's too complex.

If you take a quarter inch plate steel cutout and put it on top of a sharply pointed screwdriver (much smaller than a pedal, wouldn't you say?), then step on it, do you feel the screwdriver?

What you have to get past is that what anyone wears or prefers has nothing to do with the simple fact that you won't feel the difference between a Look, or SPD, or whatever pedal if you have well designed shoes that fit (Note that I'm only referring to "hotspots", not how the pedals work).

This is my last try since the facts are so obvious here. I'm pretty sure you'll start talking about who's wearing what again. We've all had a pretty good laugh about it! Thanks!!!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by artl
I'm still struggling with how you can entirely miss the point. I'll use the same really simple example to attempt to explain. Let me know if it's too complex.

If you take a quarter inch plate steel cutout and put it on top of a sharply pointed screwdriver (much smaller than a pedal, wouldn't you say?), then step on it, do you feel the screwdriver?

What you have to get past is that what anyone wears or prefers has nothing to do with the simple fact that you won't feel the difference between a Look, or SPD, or whatever pedal if you have well designed shoes that fit (Note that I'm only referring to "hotspots", not how the pedals work).

This is my last try since the facts are so obvious here. I'm pretty sure you'll start talking about who's wearing what again. We've all had a pretty good laugh about it! Thanks!!!

Lance never liked the smaller SPDs because of the hotspot sensation it created. This was when the team was sponsored by Shimano and SPD was their flagship pedal. Lance, Toni Rominger, Jacky Durant, Christophe Moreau, the entire Castorama team, all ditched the smallish pedals and went to using older Shimano "look" type pedals that weren't even being manufactured by Shimano anymore.

Artl said that hotspots are cause by inferior shoes. Lance was using custom Nike's. Toni Rominger was using Sid Genius. Jacky Durant was on Shimano carbon soled shoes, etc. etc. After years of pros just ditching the pedals they were supposed to be using, Shimano themselves decided to ditch the smallish SPD design in favor of the redesigned new Shimano "look" pedals.

The point is, Lance, Rominger, Durant, Moreaux, etc. etc. were not using inferior shoes. But one thing they all had in common was the pedal system. With regards to the pedal/shoe interface, hotspot has more to do with the pedal itself than the shoes.

BaCardi and ArtL are each making valid points and stating facts -- the only conflict here is arising in the stock we're supposed to put in each set of facts. I'm not sure there's a solid answer.

It's absolutely true that smaller platform pedals can contribute to discomfort; the smaller the platform, the more it's working against the stiffness of the shoe sole. BaCardi's reference to top pros ditching small-platform SPDs even while wearing top-quality shoes reinforces the notion that even the stiffest sole is working against hotspot forces.

Art is simply representing the other half of the facts. True, the SPD-ditching elites weren't wearing "crappy" shoes. Nonetheless, technically, you could be pedalling on a piece of rebar if the siffness and fitting technology behind your shoe is sound enough. A stiff enough sole, properly bound to a pedal of any size, should have the same effect as a giant pedal and a floppy shoe.

In other words, both the shoe sole and the pedal design have a mutual responsibility in preventing hotsots... something you've each agreed on at some point. For practical purposes, most consumers, shoe designers, and pedal designers pursue both to some degree -- stiffer, better fitting shoes, and more effective, broad, stiff pedal platforms.

What does this have to do with the thread, anyways?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
BaCardi and ArtL are each making valid points and stating facts -- the only conflict here is arising in the stock we're supposed to put in each set of facts. I'm not sure there's a solid answer.

It's absolutely true that smaller platform pedals can contribute to discomfort; the smaller the platform, the more it's working against the stiffness of the shoe sole. BaCardi's reference to top pros ditching small-platform SPDs even while wearing top-quality shoes reinforces the notion that even the stiffest sole is working against hotspot forces.

Art is simply representing the other half of the facts. True, the SPD-ditching elites weren't wearing "crappy" shoes. Nonetheless, technically, you could be pedalling on a piece of rebar if the siffness and fitting technology behind your shoe is sound enough. A stiff enough sole, properly bound to a pedal of any size, should have the same effect as a giant pedal and a floppy shoe.

In other words, both the shoe sole and the pedal design have a mutual responsibility in preventing hotsots... something you've each agreed on at some point. For practical purposes, most consumers, shoe designers, and pedal designers pursue both to some degree -- stiffer, better fitting shoes, and more effective, broad, stiff pedal platforms.

What does this have to do with the thread, anyways?

I did say that the shoe/pedal interface has to do with hotpots. I did not say that they both play an equal mutual responsibility to hotspots. I said that pedals play MORE of a role, than shoes. artl never said that the pedals and shoes play a mutual responsible role in hotspots. Where did you get that? WHERE? He said that hotspots were the result of poor shoes. That's what this debate is about. Shoes.

You could have the stiffest shoes imaginable and still experience hotspots. Jacky Durant and several Castorama riders were on Shimano carbon soled shoes. Tell me that isn't stiff. They switched to the old Shimano "looks" because of the smallish SPD pedal design.

What does this have to do with the thread you ask? Well, the thread is about pedals, right? Its about the shoes. Its about the pedals. Its directly related. Its not one of lokstah's past hijack threads and you know what you're talking about. It's the shoes, Mars! Its gotta be the shoes!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
I did say that the shoe/pedal interface has to do with hotpots. I did not say that they both play an equal mutual responsibility to hotspots. I said that pedals play MORE of a role, than shoes. You could have the stiffest shoes imaginable and still experience hotspots. Jack Durant and several Castorama riders were on Shimano carbon soled shoes. Tell me that isn't stiff.

What does this have to do with the thread? Its about the shoes. Its about the pedals. Its directly related. Its not one of lokstah's past hijack threads and you know what you're talking about. It's the shoes, Mars! Its gotta be the shoes!

Well, I agree, partly. When you say that the stiffest shoes imaginable can still lead to hotspots, I think you're right, but I don't think we agree as to why. There's an aspect of ArtL's argument that remains sound: if you are wearing the stiffest shoes imaginable (such as ones fitted with 1/4" steel sheeting on the soles), it couldn't matter less what your pedal interface looks like -- big platform, small platform; it's connecting that rigid sheet to a spindle and that's all your foot can determine.

If a given shoe is theoretically, perfectly stiff, you simply can't blame hotspots on platform size. The issue has to lie elsewhere -- fit, anatomy, the rest of the shoe housing; who knows.

Of course, in the real world, there aren't perfect soles, perfect fits, and perfect pedal interfaces. Platform size, shoe rigidity, and shoe fit work together to prevent discomfort. You've both made the arguments that support the various facets of this fact.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
Well, I agree, partly. When you say that the stiffest shoes imaginable can still lead to hotspots, I think you're right, but I don't think we agree as to why. There's an aspect of ArtL's argument that remains sound: if you are wearing the stiffest shoes imaginable (such as ones fitted with 1/4" steel sheeting on the soles), it couldn't matter less what your pedal interface looks like -- big platform, small platform; it's connecting that rigid sheet to a spindle and that's all your foot can determine.

If a given shoe is theoretically, perfectly stiff, you simply can't blame hotspots on platform size. The issue has to lie elsewhere -- fit, anatomy, the rest of the shoe housing; who knows.

Of course, in the real world, there aren't perfect soles, perfect fits, and perfect pedal interfaces. Platform size, shoe rigidity, and shoe fit work together to prevent discomfort. You've both made the arguments that support the various facets of this fact.

Exactly! However, artl's point is that hotspots are solely (no pun intended) due to the shoes, not the pedals. That is what is being debated.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
Exactly! However, artl's point is that hotspots are solely (no pun intended) due to the shoes, not the pedals. That is what is being debated.

Well, fair enough. Ultimately, though, the debate between you two has boiled down to the way you're each stating the same facts -- ArtL hasn't denied that small platforms matter; he's simply pointed out that the right shoe eliminates small-platform concern. And you're pointing out that shoes don't matter so much if the platform's properly designed. No matter how you or ArtL phrase these points, you're both right.

No need to take this too much further, especially since it doesn't factor too heavily into a comparison of Look and Speedplay pedal systems.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by lokstah
No need to take this too much further, especially since it doesn't factor too heavily into a comparison of Look and Speedplay pedal systems.

actually, Lokstah, this whole Bacardi/Arytl debate began with a statement regarding hotspots caused by Speedplays 😄

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by BaCardi
I prefer the Looks, easier to get into than Times. And way wider and more supportive pedal platform than Speedplays, which create hotspot feeling with many Speedplay users.