Longer toptube or Stem?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

Unfortunately, all other things cannot be equal. With identical
seattube and headtube angles, the longer top tube will give the bike a
longer wheelbase, affecting its handling characteristics, its ride
smoothness, etc. If the longer top tube is on a bike with the same
wheelbase, it will change the frame angles, again changing the handling
and ride characteristics. So you have to play those characteristics off
against each other as well.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

Bestest Handsander said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

Thanks

Well, there's not much difference in that example, but an 8cm stem on a
23" frame looks wrong, as does a 14cm stem on a 19" frame. If the top
tube length is correct for you, you should be at the same end of the
stem size range as the frame size range, if that makes any sense.

Someone who wished to conceal his or her secret identity said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

If you have an oddball stem length, handling can suffer to some extent,
due to the relationship between your hands and the steering axis.

Weight distribution will also change, because the longer the top tube,
the farther forward the front wheel is.

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120 to
be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the line
into the "oddball" region, so I'd go for the longer top tube.

If you're talking about a mountain bike, 130 is a fairly medium stem
extension, but so is 120.

Sheldon "Fitz" Brown
+-------------------------------------------+
| Good judgment comes from experience, |
| and experience comes from bad judgment. |
| --Fred Brook |
+-------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bestest Handsander said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

On a road bike I'd take the latter.

--Paul

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130

stem

Quoted message said:

or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

Personally, I would take the 58+13 combo, as it would slow down the steering
and put more weight on the front wheel. However, your preference could
easily be different.

Andy Coggan

[email hidden] (Paul Southworth) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bestest Handsander said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

On a road bike I'd take the latter.

I second that. If you are in great shape and limber, then 59 and 13
cm. Even for smaller pro riders, I often see the use of 13 cm (and
VERY low).

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120 to
be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the line
into the "oddball" region, so I'd go for the longer top tube.

Scope out some pics of eurodog road racers...lots and lots and lots of 13+
cm stems used by this crowd.

Andy Coggan

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120 to
be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the line
into the "oddball" region, so I'd go for the longer top tube.

Scope out some pics of eurodog road racers...lots and lots and lots of 13+
cm stems used by this crowd.

Andy Coggan

Yeah, but they're 18-20-somethings with 0% body fat too!

Personal opinion says make the bike fit with between a 100-120mm stem. Anything
less handling gets a little strange. Anything more, ditto. (Sez the guy what
used to ride a 140mm stem on his 88 Rockhopper. Can you say "tiller?"😉

HTH,

M

If you draft a lot, long stem puts you closer to draftee. I personally like
the shorter stem to allow higher braking rates by reducing weight transfer
to the front. High speed downhilling and late braking is one path to
performance.
Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Andy Coggan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130

stem

Quoted message said:

or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

Personally, I would take the 58+13 combo, as it would slow down the

steering

Quoted message said:

and put more weight on the front wheel. However, your preference could
easily be different.

Andy Coggan

Bestest Handsander said:

Provided all other things are equal (setback, etc.) to get to your ideal
reach lenght... would you prefer for example a 58cm top tube and a 130 stem
or a 59cm top and 120 stem?

Thanks

130cm stem with 58cm toptube. Why? Because the steering axis is moved
back 1cm closer.

MOO,
Matt

Sheldon Brown said:

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120 to
be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the line
into the "oddball" region,

Why is this?

John Verheul

This "conventional wisdom" went out the door with aluminum stems, where flex
was a bigger issue. Indeed, even in the late 80s and early 90s, it was hard
to find stems more than 120mm in length, and even 120mm stems would flex
wildly when sprinting in the drops. However, given the advent of steel
stems, and then oversized threadless stems, flex is no longer a significant
problem, and it is perfectly fine to use a longer stem.

That being said, I certainly wouldn't advocate using a 130mm stem on a 51 cm
bike. But there is nothing at all wrong with using a longer stem on a
larger frame. Indeed, contrary to what some might suggest, a 130mm stem
simply does not "oversteer" when installed on a 57, or 59cm frame. Even if
it did, you'd soon get used to it and compensate accordingly. The main
issue is bike fit and confort, and assuming your frame is properly sized, if
that takes a 130cm stem, that's fine!

"John Verheul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120 to
be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the line
into the "oddball" region,

Why is this?

John Verheul

Doug-<< This "conventional wisdom" went out the door with aluminum stems,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

???Holy pista Batman....most stems are aluminum, have been for years...hardly
any steel stems...threaded or threadless....few, Salsa, few others.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Think back . . . before threadless (granted, you porobably were nothing
more than a twinkle in your father's eye).. Everyone rode Cinelli or 3T, or
Nitto, or some similar type of aluminum quill stem. These are far
different from the aluminum threadless stems sold today

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug-<< This "conventional wisdom" went out the door with aluminum stems,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

???Holy pista Batman....most stems are aluminum, have been for

years...hardly

Quoted message said:

any steel stems...threaded or threadless....few, Salsa, few others.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"SDMike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8K3hc.23815$L75.17799@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're talking about a bike with drop handlebars, I'd consider 120

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be the upper limit for "normal" stems, and 130 to be a bit over the

line

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

into the "oddball" region, so I'd go for the longer top tube.

Scope out some pics of eurodog road racers...lots and lots and lots of

13+

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cm stems used by this crowd.

Andy Coggan

Yeah, but they're 18-20-somethings with 0% body fat too!

I'm not, but I still use a 13 cm stem on my over-square 56 cm Cervelo
Soloist, and a 14 cm stem on my under-square 54 cm Specialized Allez Comp.

Andy ("if the stem fits, use it"😉 Coggan

"Doug" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This "conventional wisdom" went out the door with aluminum stems, where

flex

Quoted message said:

was a bigger issue. Indeed, even in the late 80s and early 90s, it was

hard

Quoted message said:

to find stems more than 120mm in length,

I don't think this is true, since I was using nothing but 130 and 140 stems
(pretty much all Cinelli 1/A) in the late '80s and early '90s, as were
several of my teammates at the time. I don't recall them being particularly
hard to find.

Quoted message said:

and even 120mm stems would flex
wildly when sprinting in the drops.

Again, not my recollection. I mean, everything back then flexed a bit
more...bars, skinny-tubed frames...the stem was just part of the system.
Certainly whatever flex was there didn't pose a problem, no one was ever
nervous about sprinting, we just raced our bikes.

So I'm still wondering (particularly from Sheldon) why stems >120 are
oddball. The majority of racers who are over maybe 5'10" all seem to use
stems >120, why shouldn't we?

John Verheul

Doug said:

Quoted message said:

Indeed, even in the late 80s and early 90s, it was
hard to find stems more than 120mm in length,

John Verheul responded:

Quoted message said:

I don't think this is true, since I was using nothing but 130 and 140 stems
(pretty much all Cinelli 1/A) in the late '80s and early '90s, as were
several of my teammates at the time. I don't recall them being particularly
hard to find.

Those sizes were available in Cinelli and TTT, but nothing else.

Quoted message said:

So I'm still wondering (particularly from Sheldon) why stems >120 are
oddball. The majority of racers who are over maybe 5'10" all seem to use
stems >120, why shouldn't we?

There's a current fad for racers to use undersized frames.

Also, as another poster noted in this thread, using a shorter top tube
with a longer stem, and thus moving the front wheel backward, allows
closer drafting.

Another fad is to use super-short chainstays. Shortening the front
center helps preserve normal weight disrtibution despite the short
chainstays.

However, folks who have been reading my postings for a while will know
that I am not a racing-oriented guy. Racing is a teeny corner of the
cycling world, and racers are a minuscule minority of cyclists. What
works well for racers does _not_ necessarily apply to mainstream
cyclists, anymore than formula 1 automobile technology applies to the
design of family sedans.

Sheldon "Long Wheelbase Is Good" Brown
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| I have to mention how wary I am whenever I read bike |
| reviews which talk about how great some bike handled |
| the instant the rider mounted up. |
| If the bike immediately feels right, it's most likely |
| because it handles very similarly to whatever the |
| rider most recently rode. |
| I have bikes that I have ridden thousands of miles, |
| that handle and perform flawlessly. Yet if I've been |
| riding something different, like the tandem (especially |
| captaining) or my commuter with a heavy saddle bag or |
| pannier and then hop back on my sporty single, I spend |
| the first mile or so hardly able to get out of the |
| saddle. I'm all over the road. I would swear the bike |
| has been chopped in half. But within a short time, |
| everything is back to normal, and my trusty old bike |
| is handling great again. --Pamela Blalock |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

If you're talking about a mountain bike, 130 is a fairly medium stem
extension, but so is 120.

That's opposite of my findings as I have been shopping for a MTB over
the past month or so. Back in the day (early '90's), MTB stems were
commonly as long as you say. But now, the top tubes seem to have grown
much longer and stems accordingly shorter.

According to the guys at my LBS, who are all avid MTB riders, this is a
good change. I've only ridden one MTB with the "Genesis" geometry that's
currently popular, and I didn't like it.

Sheldon, tell me I'm looking in all the wrong places. :^) I'd still like
to test ride an MTB with the shorter top tube and longer stem.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Sheldon Brown said:

There's a current fad for racers to use undersized frames.

Absolutely! When I was in France everybody told me I had too large a frame,
but I like long top tubes, since they'ry are less "nervous".

When I was measured by Merckx he recommended me a 58.5 cm tob tube, whilst
others told me to get a 57 cm top tube. That way one can have a shorter
stem and a bike that feels less nervous.

I agree with you completely on this.

Sinceres amities,

Derk