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Long, long, long-long-long rides

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23 March 2006
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28 March 2006
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SYJ
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  1. I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course was
    changed)?

    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly before/during
    the race?

    Thanks in advance,
    SYJ

  2. SYJ said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    I haven't done that particular ride, but I have done many rides as long
    or longer. So here's my $0.02:

    Quoted message said:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    Upright may put more weight on you butt, with subsequent complications.
    If your position works for 3-4 hours, it should work for longer. Make a
    habit of standing every once in a while and stretching out. Try to stay
    limber, and don't tense up. The key for me is finding a good fore-aft
    saddle position so I can balance without too much weight on my hands,
    and not too much on the butt.

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    I have ridden 22+ hour rides in rain, grit and all sorts of
    unpleasantness. I use a synthetic pad and no cream or anything. The pad
    shouldn't be moving around, so it shouldn't chafe. If it does, try
    different and/or smaller/larger shorts.

    Quoted message said:

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course was
    changed)?

    Never been there!

    Quoted message said:

    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    Fuel is a critical ingredient for long rides. You will be expending a
    massive amout of energy, so you need to make sure you replenish your
    reserves as much as possible underway. Or at least slow their rate of
    depletion. 100 miles and 200 miles are very different. Make sure to eat
    and drink. Also make sure to keep the pace sane. Every 5 seconds of
    anerobic will cost you big time down the road. Stomping up a short
    incline to keep the speed up isn't worth it. You may get up that little
    bump 2 seconds faster, but it may haunt you later. Think smooth, even
    power.

    Quoted message said:

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly before/during
    the race?

    I would not make any changes whatsoever before a long ride like that.
    Everything from food the day before to equipment would be something I
    knew I liked and was used to.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks in advance,
    SYJ

    Have fun!

    Joseph

  3. SYJ said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    If you have lower back pain after 3-4 hours, then I would surmise your
    bar is not set correctly. You should be able to ride for hours and
    hours without back pain.

    Quoted message said:


    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course was
    changed)?

    Low enough so you can sit and spin up all of the mountains. Don't have
    gearing so high you have to stand and struggle up the first mountain.
    200 miles is a long way.

    Quoted message said:


    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly before/during
    the race?

    As already mentioned by Joseph, food and fluids are very important.
    Very, very important. You really need to ride that far to see how your
    body will react. The longer I ride the less tolerant and more
    sensitive my stomach becomes. You need to decide if regular food or
    only the liquid mixes will work for you. I'd suggest participating in
    the 200, 300, and 400 km randonneur brevet series in your area to test
    the distance involved and your dietary requirements.

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks in advance,
    SYJ

  4. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:
    SYJ said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about
    bike setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly
    over 100 miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with
    some expected aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who
    have done Lotoja (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the
    following:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position
    that works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain
    coming into the picture after that). Would you recommend a more
    upright position?

    If you have lower back pain after 3-4 hours, then I would surmise
    your bar is not set correctly. You should be able to ride for hours
    and hours without back pain.

    Maybe the bars, maybe saddle position, maybe both. Since Greg Lemond's
    book came out there is a tendency to think that pushing the saddle back
    is a good thing, but it's not necessarily so. Having your butt farther
    back makes you bend more, reversing the lumbar curve and often causing
    pain after a few hours. I agree with Russell that one should be able to
    ride as long as one wants without low back pain, and that if you are
    having low back pain at all there is something that needs to be adjusted
    in your position.

    Now, IMHO 2" below the saddle isn't very low. Mine is about that, maybe
    slightly higher now as I've aged and stopped racing. Once upon a time I
    rode with the bars 11 cm (5"😉 below the saddle quite comfortably...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    Yes. Yes. Yesssss. Unless you have callused cheeks. For most rides I
    use Noxzema as it washes out easily. For rides of about 50 miles or
    more, I usually use Chamois Butt'r. I haven't tried it yet, but
    Lantiseptic barrier creme is getting rave reviews among randonneurs
    lately.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course
    was changed)?

    Low enough so you can sit and spin up all of the mountains. Don't
    have gearing so high you have to stand and struggle up the first
    mountain. 200 miles is a long way.

    Quoted message said:


    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them
    early in the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly
    before/during the race?

    Make your adjustments now and make them incrementally, to give your body
    time to adjust. Do not make any significant changes in your position
    before the big event.

    Quoted message said:

    As already mentioned by Joseph, food and fluids are very important.
    Very, very important. You really need to ride that far to see how
    your body will react. The longer I ride the less tolerant and more
    sensitive my stomach becomes. You need to decide if regular food or
    only the liquid mixes will work for you. I'd suggest participating
    in the 200, 300, and 400 km randonneur brevet series in your area to
    test the distance involved and your dietary requirements.

    Good idea, with the benefit of putting the OP in touch with local riders
    with lots of experience in riding those distances.

  5. SYJ said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma.

    If the start is crazy, even though they're going 200 mi., I'd wait for
    the big slams to leave, or go up the road to a place you can wait and
    look for a decent smaller group to jump in with.

    My longest day is well short of 200 miles (175 or so); however, if I
    were doing this, the first hour or two might be ridden pretty darn
    gently, especially if I could find a group (see above <g>😉 of
    safe-riding, like-minded individuals to share pace and enjoy the ride
    with. Bike clubs or as another poster mentioned, other long, organized
    rides might be a place to make contacts with the purpose of forming a
    Finish Lojota Assault Group. [censored], that's an acronym, isn't it? Didn't
    mean to...

    Back in the day, at 140 miles or so, I used to need a ham and cheese
    sandwich; the pre-gelfood era Gatorade or whatnot (sugar replacements)
    available back then just didn't help after awhile. "YMMV" --D-y

  6. 23 Mar 2006 13:51:02 -0800, SYJ <[email hidden]> wtote:

    Quoted message said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    I haven't done this particular race, but every year I do one ore more
    races as long or longer - Paris-Brest-Paris of 1200 km beeing the longest.

    Quoted message said:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    Your bar isn't actually low. Your back should be able to cope with that
    since you are used to it. And you do want reduced wind resistance. I do
    special exercises for lower back strength all year long (see:
    www.cyclo-core.com)- and during the ride I try to remember to stretch my
    back, loosen my shoulders and shake my fingers frequently.

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    The right cream will make a little difference.

    Quoted message said:

    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    25 mm tires iso standard 23 mm make a differance to your comfort and
    endurance on a 300 km long ride, and they don't slow you down.

    Quoted message said:

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly before/during
    the race?

    New positions, new tires, new socs, new EVERYthing should be tested as
    early as possible. Even energy drinks and energy bars should be testet.

    With greatly changing temperatures and winds your dressing will be of
    great importance. This is imho the field where some of the most costly
    mistakes are made. Passing a mountain you can freeze and boil if your
    clothes are not right.So if you lack experience it would be wise to
    investigate and test the clothes that you want to use on The Day - as
    early as possible.

    Ivar of Denmark

  7. SYJ said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    If it's more comfortable, yes, but the only way to find out what works
    for long hours on the bike is to spend long hours on the bike.

    Quoted message said:


    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    Yes. The real purpose of the cream is not to lubricate, but to prevent
    moisture (sweat) from softening the skin and allowing it to chafe more
    easily. The best creams have waterproofing compounds like Vaseline and
    lanolin. You apply them (as frequently as needed) to the skin, not the
    shorts.

    Quoted message said:

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course was
    changed)?

    A triple helps on ultra rides when there's lots of climbing.
    particularly if you're not as well trained as you should be or are prone
    to cramps. Spinning a higher cadence on climbs doesn't seem to fatigue
    the muscles as badly.

    Quoted message said:

    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediatly before/during
    the race?

    As others have said, don't change *anything* before a long ride.
    Training for such rides is more than simply preparing your body, it also
    teaches you what works for clothing, food, bike setup, etc. Most people
    can finish a double without much preparation, but it can be an
    unnecessary suffer-fest. Do a few rides in the 120-150 mi range before
    doing that 206, then you should be able to finish comfortably.

  8. Thank y'all for the responses, I appreciate all of the insights -
    especially the recommendation for the core exercises. As for the lower
    back pain, perhaps I'm just getting older, but I wind up with lower
    back pain doing nearly anything for over 3-4 hours (the joys of a
    sedentary desk jockey) ;-)

    I have a number of friends who have done the ride in the past, and
    highly recommend it - even those who suffered through last year's
    iteration (read the horror stories on the website). If any of y'all
    are from the mountain west, I would pass their recommendations on to
    you.

    SYJ

  9. In article <ops6ww7i0txtdc4g@ivarsnotebook>,

    Ivar Hesselager said:

    With greatly changing temperatures and winds your dressing will be of
    great importance. This is imho the field where some of the most
    costly mistakes are made. Passing a mountain you can freeze and boil
    if your clothes are not right.So if you lack experience it would be
    wise to investigate and test the clothes that you want to use on The
    Day - as early as possible.

    Ivar makes a good point. In my experience, the things that make long
    distance rides good or bad are comfort issues. Hands, butt and feet are
    three obvious ones.

    Less obvious is one's neck and upper back which can become very sore
    from craning your neck to see where you are going and can lead to
    Shermer neck, numb or weak hands, etc. Higher bars reduce this problem.
    I usually wear cycling gloves, although with the bars high enough those
    are less necessary. Most events require a helmet, so buy a light one.

    Saddles are very personal choices. I prefer Brooks Pros, but many
    people find Brooks saddles less than satisfactory while many find them
    wonderful. One r.b.t personality referred to them as "ass hatchets," a
    phrase sure to stick with one. They are expensive, take some
    maintenance and don't care to be ridden in the rain without protection.
    Of course, there are many plastic saddles for sale that are as expensive
    or more expensive than most Brooks saddles. I always liked the original
    Selle San Marco Rolls saddle.

    We haven't talked much about feet in this discussion. Shoes that fit
    well are an obvious issue. The sole should be stiff enough that you
    don't feel like you are standing on walnuts on the pedals. Your feet
    may swell during the ride and your shoes should be conveniently
    adjustable to accommodate this (I've never hads a problem with this, but
    know many people who have at events like Paris-Brest-Paris which is 750
    miles in under 90 hours). I find that wool cycling socks, like
    SmartWool's, eliminate "hot spots" and contribute greatly to comfort.
    The tops of the socks should not be tight as this can contribute to
    Achilles tendinitis.

    Ivar's point about temperature regulation is a key one. Experiment with
    clothing at different temperatures and different conditions, and write
    down your findings. You should be able to generate a table of what
    clothing works well for you in what conditions pretty easily; you can
    then look at the weather you'll be dealing with on the ride and make
    good choices. I find that very breathable materials are best. I prefer
    wool jerseys or knit synthetic jerseys as these breathe better than
    woven synthetic ones. I don't like wool shorts, though, and use regular
    cycling shorts. I prefer older Pearl Izumis with pretty thin
    chamois(es) as thicker ones kind of bunch up. The current PI pads are
    adequate but a little too thick for my tastes.

    For long distance rides I use a moderately large saddlebag. In my case,
    a Rivendell Banana Bag. It's big enough for tools, tubes, a few snacks
    and some clothing (rain jacket lashed onto the outside with a couple of
    toe straps). That increases my ability to cope with changing weather
    conditions quickly. I usually carry arm and knee warmers on rides that
    may go into the evening hours, and a cycling cap for rain or intense
    sun. Chapstick with sun screen in it, a small bottle of sun screen, a
    small bottle of chamois lube (labeled to tell them apart). I wear
    glasses, so I have some clip-on sunglasses and bring along the case for
    the clip-ons.

    If the ride may go into the evening hours, I bring a set of lights. Two
    of my bikes have generator headlights and I would be using one of those
    for long distance rides anyway, so my lights are already along for the
    ride. For my other bikes I have some clip on headlights and taillights.
    These have improved quite a bit in the last few years.

  10. Quoted message said:

    I've pretty much convinced myself to do Lotoja this year
    (http://www.lotojaclassic.com/), but I have a few concerns about bike
    setup. Thus far, my longest single day ride has been slightly over 100
    miles, made with no changes to position. I ended up with some expected
    aches and pains, but no major trauma. For those who have done Lotoja
    (or a similar ride/race) I'm curious about the following:

    1) Currently, my bar sits about 2" below my saddle - a position that
    works just fine over 3-4 hours (with some lower back pain coming into
    the picture after that). Would you recommend a more upright position?

    Drop from saddle to bar scales, meaning that, on a larger bike, a drop of 2"
    might not be much at all, while on a smaller bike, it could be pretty
    extreme. And that's before you even consider the your-mileage-may-vary
    aspect of things. So if you've got a fairly large frame, we can make a
    different assumption (that it's not much of a drop) than if you have a
    smaller one.

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is chamois cream really that helpful (given modern seamless
    synthetic chamois)?

    Entirely dependent upon the individual. I've never ever had to use it; never
    felt like I needed to. But I've got customers who swear by it. My guess is
    that they didn't grow up on real leather chamois cycling shorts like I did.
    I could probably sit on a bed of nails at this point and not be bothered by
    it.

    Quoted message said:

    3) What kind of gearing would you recommend (applies primarily to
    those who suffered through the most recent edition, as the course was
    changed)?

    Again, an individual thing, but in general, with modern equipment you can go
    very wide without losing anything (except $$$, of course), so why not be
    prepared for anything? A triple arrangement could be set up with 52/42/30
    and an 11-32 or even 11-34 in back. Rarely could someone find a need for
    either higher or lower gears than that on a supported ride.

    Quoted message said:

    4) Did you make any other accomodations?

    Bring Advil.

    Quoted message said:

    5) If you did make any changes, did you try to implement them early in
    the season (for muscle memory purposes), or immediately before/during
    the race?

    I'm a bike shop owner, so my usual thing is to get a brand new bike or
    whatever and do its very first ride on a century the next morning. Great for
    adrenalin rush, bad for any funny little issues that might come up. Use
    common sense. But don't worry too much about muscle memory, in my humble
    opinion. If you change your riding style into something that you don't
    really enjoy, you're likely to do more damage than good. So much of any
    physical effort is mental that your state of mind is the most-important
    thing to take care of.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

  11. Per Tim McNamara:

    Quoted message said:

    Shermer neck

    ?
    --
    PeteCresswell

  12. (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Tim McNamara:

    Quoted message said:

    Shermer neck

    ?
    --
    PeteCresswell

    A RAAM participant in the 1980s(?) with the name of Shermer developed
    this problem. The neck lost the ability to hold the head up so the
    chin literally dropped onto the chest while riding. Or standing up
    too. So to keep riding the people who develop this problem use sticks
    and tape strapped to the body/neck/head/helmet to literally hold the
    head from dropping to the chest. I'm sure there is an official medical
    name for this condition, but like Lou Gehrig's disease, its known more
    by the term Shermer Neck.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:
    (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Tim McNamara:

    Quoted message said:

    Shermer neck

    ? -- PeteCresswell

    A RAAM participant in the 1980s(?) with the name of Shermer developed
    this problem. The neck lost the ability to hold the head up so the
    chin literally dropped onto the chest while riding. Or standing up
    too. So to keep riding the people who develop this problem use
    sticks and tape strapped to the body/neck/head/helmet to literally
    hold the head from dropping to the chest. I'm sure there is an
    official medical name for this condition, but like Lou Gehrig's
    disease, its known more by the term Shermer Neck.

    Yeah, I saw probably half a dozen people with this at PBP. One guy was
    holding his head up with his hand to talk to people...

  14. Quoted message said:
    (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Tim McNamara:

    Quoted message said:

    Shermer neck

    ?
    --
    PeteCresswell

    A RAAM participant in the 1980s(?) with the name of Shermer developed
    this problem. The neck lost the ability to hold the head up so the
    chin literally dropped onto the chest while riding. Or standing up
    too. So to keep riding the people who develop this problem use sticks
    and tape strapped to the body/neck/head/helmet to literally hold the
    head from dropping to the chest. I'm sure there is an official medical
    name for this condition, but like Lou Gehrig's disease, its known more
    by the term Shermer Neck.

    As much as I riding I would have to seriously consider finding a new
    hobby if I needed a brace to hold my head off my chest. Was this just a
    short-term 'fix' to allow them to finish RAAM? I am sure the riders
    wanted to finish, but if they had broken a bone or blown a knee I don't
    think the ride organizers would have let them gerry-rig a cast and
    continue. (I am reminded of the marathon runners in the Olympics 20+
    years ago who were so dehydrated that they could barely stand-up, with
    one crab-walking to the finish. You have to admire their will but it
    seemed cruel to watch.)

    Wouldn't a doctor [I'm not one] be hard-pressed to endorse continuing
    the activity that led to the problem? Does anybody know if the issue is
    neuro or muscular? Perhaps there is a physical therapy regimen that
    would strengthen the neck or upper back muscles that are involved?

  15. David said:

    As much as I riding I would have to seriously consider finding a new
    hobby if I needed a brace to hold my head off my chest. Was this just a
    short-term 'fix' to allow them to finish RAAM?


    Every year there are RAAM riders in this situation. It's maybe the
    coolest part of the event, when they start using straps to hold their
    heads up. This ain't no 400 mile jaunt. It's hard core!

    JT

    ****************************
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  16. In article <[email hidden]>, David <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Tim McNamara:

    >Shermer neck

    ? -- PeteCresswell

    A RAAM participant in the 1980s(?) with the name of Shermer
    developed this problem. The neck lost the ability to hold the head
    up so the chin literally dropped onto the chest while riding. Or
    standing up too. So to keep riding the people who develop this
    problem use sticks and tape strapped to the body/neck/head/helmet
    to literally hold the head from dropping to the chest. I'm sure
    there is an official medical name for this condition, but like Lou
    Gehrig's disease, its known more by the term Shermer Neck.

    As much as I riding I would have to seriously consider finding a new
    hobby if I needed a brace to hold my head off my chest. Was this
    just a short-term 'fix' to allow them to finish RAAM?

    Yes, people do recover after the neck muscle spasms subside.

    http://www.ultracycling.com/training/neck_pain.html

  17. David said:
    Quoted message said:
    (PeteCresswell) said:

    Per Tim McNamara:

    >Shermer neck

    ?
    --
    PeteCresswell

    A RAAM participant in the 1980s(?) with the name of Shermer developed
    this problem. The neck lost the ability to hold the head up so the
    chin literally dropped onto the chest while riding. Or standing up
    too. So to keep riding the people who develop this problem use sticks
    and tape strapped to the body/neck/head/helmet to literally hold the
    head from dropping to the chest. I'm sure there is an official medical
    name for this condition, but like Lou Gehrig's disease, its known more
    by the term Shermer Neck.

    As much as I riding I would have to seriously consider finding a new
    hobby if I needed a brace to hold my head off my chest. Was this just a
    short-term 'fix' to allow them to finish RAAM? I am sure the riders
    wanted to finish, but if they had broken a bone or blown a knee I don't
    think the ride organizers would have let them gerry-rig a cast and
    continue. (I am reminded of the marathon runners in the Olympics 20+
    years ago who were so dehydrated that they could barely stand-up, with
    one crab-walking to the finish. You have to admire their will but it
    seemed cruel to watch.)

    Wouldn't a doctor [I'm not one] be hard-pressed to endorse continuing
    the activity that led to the problem? Does anybody know if the issue is
    neuro or muscular? Perhaps there is a physical therapy regimen that
    would strengthen the neck or upper back muscles that are involved?

    I was at a ride a week ago where the 2004 RAAM winner spoke. He said
    he had Shermer neck and had to use tape/sticks etc. to finish and win.
    So the problem is not confined to the neophyte or slow or ill prepared.
    And of course this problem only occurs after several days of riding.
    It does not happen in the first 24 or 48 or 72 hours of riding.
    Usually. Since RAAM is an 8-9-10-11 day continuous event, it does
    occur. The vast majority of people who ride as a hobby have nothing to
    worry about.

    Tyler Hamilton broke his collar bone in the Giro a few years ago and
    kept riding to the end. The race organizers did not prevent him from
    riding as long as he finished within the cutoff time each day. In all
    of the Grand Tours there are wrecks and riders break bones and keep on
    riding. Usually just the next day but they stop on their own accord,
    not because the organizer makes them. This has probably occurred for
    decades and decades. S riders with the Shermer neck continuing riding
    is nothing unusual.

  18. Quoted message said:

    Tyler Hamilton broke his collar bone in the Giro a few years ago and
    kept riding to the end. The race organizers did not prevent him from
    riding

    The race organizers did not know about his injury.

    JT

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  19. In article <[email hidden]>, Tim McNamara

    () said:

    Yeah, I saw probably half a dozen people with this at PBP. One guy was
    holding his head up with his hand to talk to people...

    There was an article about London-Edinburgh-London in the last-but-one
    issue of Arrivee, in which the author described the use of a bungie
    'twixt h+lm+t and rack to keep his head up in the latter stages.

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    They came for Eamonn Holmes; I think I'm right in saying that I
    applauded.

  20. Tim McNamara said:

    Maybe the bars, maybe saddle position, maybe both. Since Greg Lemond's
    book came out there is a tendency to think that pushing the saddle back
    is a good thing, but it's not necessarily so. Having your butt farther
    back makes you bend more, reversing the lumbar curve and often causing
    pain after a few hours. I agree with Russell that one should be able to
    ride as long as one wants without low back pain, and that if you are
    having low back pain at all there is something that needs to be adjusted
    in your position.

    I contend that moving most modern, racing type saddles in the rails
    really doesn't move you forward or back. If you think of the saddle
    as a rail instead of a wedge, you can envision what I'm speaking of.
    Moving the saddle in the rails serves to position the saddle under
    under you so you can optimize where your sit bones contact the saddle.
    I personally believe that arguements for KneeOverPedal are invalid.
    Your body will go where it has to for your pedal stroke. Please don't
    extend what I've said here to ALL saddles. Something like a B17
    supports you on a hammock and can, because of its width, force you
    into a position. I use Fizik Pave's on most bikes and a B17 on my
    surburban/touring bike.

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