Logic help please: poor sauce

in article [email hidden], Michael Horowitz at
[email hidden] wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques Every Cook Should Know
by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

Here is the link to it from Amazon.com: tinyurl.comyvaqgOpen ↗

Might be worth your investment.

Good luck.

Quoted message said:

Michael Horowitz

I have some boiled chicken So I started with a roux, brought to a rich choc. color.

Dark brown sauce with chicken... blech!

Quoted message said:

I add a can of beef broth

Beef broth with chicken... BLECH!

Quoted message said:

that's where my imagination abandoned me.

What makes you think you have an imagination... you do not... what you have is called *nightmare*.

Quoted message said:

Would like to hear what I logically did <STRIKE>right</STRIKE>/wrong here

You entered the kitchen... STAY OUT!

Your ilk would do better on the couch in front of the tube with your case of canned brew, and if you
get an itch to feel culinary, suck on a Slim Jim and if you wanna try your hand at creativity shove
a sprig of parsley up your ass. Imagine that!

Ahahahahahahahahaha. . . .

---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- Sheldon
```````````` "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Quoted message said:

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here

Don't try to treat soup stock remains as the basis of serious food. Bland bland bland isn't worth
dressing up.

I don't like the idea of starting with bacon grease. Butter would have been a better idea, in the
absence of pan drippings.

I'll give you a pass on the canned consumé.

You didn't salt it, did you? That would have helped.

So would a good dribble of sherry.

(Mr. Penmart's comments may be reinserted into his ass-hole.)

Neil

Michael Horowitz said:

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve it over rice. Previous
posting about gravies and sauces points out I can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is
rice and boiled chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than say a
bechamel (sp?)

Chicken left over from soup-making has most of the flavor extracted already. I quite like it for a
light chicken salad, or as the meat thing in something like vibrantly spiced taco/enchilada filling.

Quoted message said:

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments, and it seemed to me that if I
was thinking rich, the flavor of the grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux,
brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth

Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a combo of washed out chicken,
pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a little odd.

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more logical approach
to cooking.

If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until you're comfortable. Gifted and
experienced cooks can make wonderful food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we
don't have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between 2Tblsp of sherry and a
good slosh is worth paying attention to.

Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that begin with X cups of diced,
cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to add
more pepper to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.

Sheryl Rosen said:

Michael Horowitz wrote on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques Every Cook Should Know
by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

Here is the link to it from Amazon.com: tinyurl.comyvaqgOpen ↗

Surely not *that* Pamela Anderson?! :-)

(WardNA) said:

Don't try to treat soup stock remains as the basis of serious food. Bland bland bland isn't worth
dressing up.

I didn't want to throw away the chicken; beside this was to be an experiment where it was terrible I
wouldn't feel bad about throwing the results

Quoted message said:

I don't like the idea of starting with bacon grease. Butter would have been a better idea, in the
absence of pan drippings.

I think you're correct; bad aftertaste this morning. Do you think this would have been a case where
a demi glace would have been useful (not that I've made one, you understand)?

Quoted message said:

I'll give you a pass on the canned consumé.

You didn't salt it, did you? That would have helped.

Nope; should have

Quoted message said:

So would a good dribble of sherry.

Ah, yeah; I should have remembered I use couple Teaspoons of Port when making gravy from bird
drippings;

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Neil

Sheryl Rosen said:

in article [email hidden], Michael Horowitz at [email hidden] wrote
on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques Every Cook Should Know
by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

Quoted message said:

Might be worth your investment.

Good luck.

Done. Isn't ABEBOOKS great? And they didn't saddle me with an extra quick shipping charge. Thanks
for the suggestion - Mike

Frogleg said:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz <[email hidden]> wrote:

Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a combo of washed out chicken,
pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a little odd.

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more logical approach
to cooking.

If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until you're comfortable. Gifted and
experienced cooks can make wonderful food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we
don't have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between 2Tblsp of sherry and a
good slosh is worth paying attention to.

Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that begin with X cups of diced,
cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to add
more pepper to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.

Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I was trying to mix the
theory I knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste
using bacon grease (after all, bacon has a strong taste)); but there was apparently a gap
between theory and practice.

I guess it's partly due to the mental connection I made earlier this week looking at some SOS and
saying "hey, this is a modified bechamel sauce" - Mike

Quoted message said:

wardna assumes the position:

So would a good dribble of sherry.

(Mr. Penmart's comments may be reinserted into his ass-hole.)

Today you are my [censored]. hehe

---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- Sheldon
```````````` "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Michael Horowitz said:

Frogleg said:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz <[email hidden]> wrote:

Well, I'm not a haute cuisine master, nor do I play one on TV, but a combo of washed out chicken,
pork fat, and beef broth sounds...a little odd.

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more logical approach
to cooking.

If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until you're comfortable. Gifted
and experienced cooks can make wonderful food 'off the cuff'.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Your bland chicken? Over rice? There are a million recipes(!) that begin with X cups of diced,
cooked chicken. Diced, sauted veg usually come into the equation somewhere. The remedy isn't to
add more pepper to a sauce, but to have some idea of what you have in mind.

Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I was trying to mix the
theory I knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste
using bacon grease

(snip)

Absolutely nothing wrong with a modified bechamel sauce, either, Mike. My grandmother, my mother and
I all have made variations of what you describe. We save the bacon grease for biscuits to serve it
over, rather than rice, but rice works and even noodles 🙂

After you've made a light roux with butter, S&P and flour and milk and cooked the sauce to medium
thickness, add about 1-1/2 c. of broth or stock. And a splash of dry white wine. IMHO, herbs are
essential, even if it's nothing more than some good fresh chopped parsley. Fresh marjoram is
excellent with this; rosemary is also good but is a bit strong in flavour and must be used (IMO)
judiciously. I always add a bit of cayenne pepper to this mix. Add back the cooked chicken and cook
the mixture down a bit. Serve over crumbled biscuits, rice or noodles.

Jill

Nothing wrong with white sauces over chicken. I would have made a roux with the bacon grease,
stirred in plenty of chopped parsley and salt and pepper then added milk to make a thick pan
gravy. A touch of a nice dry sherry adds a nice flavor as well. It would go splendidly with the
chicken and rice.

Paul

"Michael Horowitz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve it over rice. Previous
posting about gravies and sauces points out I can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is
rice and boiled chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than say a
bechamel (sp?)

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments, and it seemed to me that if
I was thinking rich, the flavor of the grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux,
brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from a reasonable
cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve
the lumps and begin to reduce, tasting as I go.

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne. Stirred- still sort of
bland - that's where my imagination abandoned me.

Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my mouth I attribute to
bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks, Mike

Michael Horowitz said:

Frogleg <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If recipes are still white-knuckle, keep practicing with them until you're comfortable. Gifted and
experienced cooks can make wonderful food 'off the cuff'. The rest of us eventually learn that we
don't have to measure "1/2 cup chopped onion," but the difference between 2Tblsp of sherry and a
good slosh is worth paying attention to.

Quoted message said:

Hello FL - I have several sauces folks have previously suggested; I was trying to mix the theory I
knew (deglaze/roux to thicken/add stock) with what I thought (get a stronger taste using bacon
grease (after all, bacon has a strong taste)); but there was apparently a gap between theory and
practice.

Hey, Mike. I feel your pain/concern. :-) Cooking is, IMHO, an ongoing learning process. I'd say
about 1/3rd of my free-wheeling 'experiments' are really good; 1/3rd are, um, edible; and 1/3rd have
me hunting around for containers to discreetly dispose of the material in the garbage. Oatmeal
instead of barley in the recipe for the ground beef thing? Edible, I suppose. Not something to look
forward to. Bacon grease? Well, pork side meat goes well with beans or greens. I fry a couple of
slices of bacon in a cast-iron skillet to prepare for cornbread.

The *theory* -- roux, liquid, Other Stuff -- is sound. But you don't treat lobster to the same prep
as beef stew. And adding a lot of pepper to a sauce does not a fine dining experience make. For your
post-broth chicken over rice, perhaps a simple curry would be a flavorful possibility. Oil, not
bacon fat. Add veg. Chicken with sauce over rice doesn't have to be "look out!" flavored either. You
got y'r oriental (ginger and soy), and y'r curry, and y'r cacciatore and y'r enchilada filling. And
a genteel a la cream sauce with a little parsley on top.

Michael Horowitz said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more logical
approach to cooking.

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve it over rice. Previous
posting about gravies and sauces points out I can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is
rice and boiled chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than say a
bechamel (sp?)

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments, and it seemed to me that if I
was thinking rich, the flavor of the grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux,
brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from a reasonable
cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve
the lumps and begin to reduce, tasting as I go.

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne. Stirred- still sort of bland
- that's where my imagination abandoned me.

Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my mouth I attribute to
bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,

I usually start with an onion whatever else is going in. I chop the onion while the pan is heating
and that gives me time to think of what to do next, since I often haven't thought that far ahead.

Put a bay leaf in for a while, also some sprigs of a savory herb. Thyme and rosemary are both
effective in different ways.

I usually also chop some garlic to put in later on. The later it goes in the less bland, but don't
overdo that side of it.

I taste every once in a while, and if it seems too bland near the end I will toss in some hot sauce.
You can put some in that will add depth before it is enough to make heat evident.

Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today."
--Former mayor Ciancia

Michael Horowitz said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve it over rice. Previous
posting about gravies and sauces points out I can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is
rice and boiled chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than say a
bechamel (sp?)

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments, and it seemed to me that if
I was thinking rich, the flavor of the grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux,
brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from a reasonable
cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve
the lumps and begin to reduce, tasting as I go.

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne. Stirred- still sort of
bland - that's where my imagination abandoned me.

Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my mouth I attribute to
bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks, Mike

forget about the sauce. find yourself some spring onions, chop them finely. find yourself some
ginger, grate them finely. heat up some veg oil and throw the oil over the ginger and spring onions.
add salt, add some soy sauce and a couple drops of pure 100% sesame oil. add a few slices of red
pepper if you feel like it. just dip your chicken in the mixture to go with the rice.

the soy sauce sort of replaces the lost flavour in the chicken.

Michael Horowitz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

... stuff deleted about making a dish from scratch....

Mike, Don't take this the wrong way. I don't think you're ready for this.

There's nothing wrong in following recipies, most good cooks do this
all the time. What you should concentrate on now is learning to make
the same dish over and over until you don't need to follow the recipe.
At that point you'll know what would spice it up the way you want to.

To draw an analogy, like a musician you're learning to improvise. But you want to improvise within
the music that you've already learned. What you attempted is to play jazz but improvise in ragtime.

So next time look up a recipe that you haven't tried that involves using up chicken meat. Eventually
you'll have learned to make so many things that you'll open the refrigerator, see the chicken and
think enchilladas.

To my way of thinking, following a recipe is the *most* logical way of cooking.

Good luck, Susan B.

In article <[email hidden]>, Michael Horowitz

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

Quoted message said:

rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from a reasonable cook:
Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable

Quoted message said:

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my mouth I attribute to
bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,

Most sauces need considerable salt to taste good. Also, I would make this dish with some herbs.

--
Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS [email hidden]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 07:44:51 -0500, Michael Horowitz <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have some boiled chicken (remains of making soup) and wish to serve it over rice. Previous
posting about gravies and sauces points out I can contrast the meat with the sauce; since this is
rice and boiled chicken pieces, it seems a rich sauce would be more appropriate than say a
bechamel (sp?)

Nothing wrong with the idea. The chicken is basically tastless at this point, it has all been
extracted by the stock making. So, this means all, let me repeat, ALL the flavor is going to come
from the sauce or other ingredients in the dish.

Quoted message said:

I have some bacon grease (blush) stored away for my Lousiana moments, and it seemed to me that if I
was thinking rich, the flavor of the grease would be a good start. So I started with a roux,
brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous thread from a reasonable
cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable substitute for stock). Stir like mad to disolve
the lumps and begin to reduce, tasting as I go.

Heating the chicken in some bacon grease would have infused some flavor back in (actually on) the
chicken. Putting it in the roux just diffused that flavor, made it a background note. You need a
sauce with body. A bechamel, veloute, or tomato derivative. A spicy Creole style sauce, a peppery
veloute, a mornay ( bechamel w/ cheese), a mexican mole.

Quoted message said:

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne. Stirred- still sort of bland
- that's where my imagination abandoned me.

Here is where you made your big mistake - The sauce is the flavor. Bland sauce = bland ( or worse )
dish. What you made is a demi-glace. A sauce I would use to complement a meat dish.

Quoted message said:

Added the chicken chunks to warm and served over rice.

Bland, bland, bland and this morning I have a leftover taste in my mouth I attribute to
bacon grease.

Would like to hear what I logically did right/wrong here - Thanks,

Probably, grease is, well, grease.

Michael Horowitz said:

So I started with a roux, brought to a rich choc. color. Then I add a can of beef broth (previous
thread from a reasonable cook: Swanson's lo-sodium broths make a reasonable substitute for stock).
Stir like mad to disolve the lumps and begin to reduce, tasting as I go.

I'd have used chicken stock. Or, actually, chicken base. I find that dark roux doesn't do much for
me except taste burnt. Maybe that's just my tastebuds.

Quoted message said:

Reduced for about :10 and tasted; added pepper and a pinch of cayenne. Stirred- still sort of
bland - that's where my imagination abandoned me.

Onion, garlic, celery, bell pepper... I think those are the basis for the louisiana style sauce you
were trying for. Next time try chopping some up and sauteing it before mixing in the roux and hot
pepper. Remember that the roux is going to subdue whatever flavors you add, so you may need a little
bit more than you think for good flavor.

Dawn

Sheryl Rosen said:

in article [email hidden], Michael Horowitz at [email hidden] wrote
on 2/7/04 7:44 AM:

Quoted message said:

Background: I'm trying to transition from a white-knuckled dependence on recipies to a more
logical approach to cooking.

There is a book called "How to Cook Without a Book : Recipes and Techniques Every Cook Should Know
by Heart" by Pamela Anderson.

Here is the link to it from Amazon.com: tinyurl.comyvaqgOpen ↗

Might be worth your investment.

Good luck.

Sheryl - book arrived on Friday; I've read the first few chapters, trying to absorb her overall
approach. Tonite I'm trying the Tomato and Cuke salad and then a supper soup. I practiced while
shopping, trying to go thru her logic in selecting items (but with a written shopping list, just in
case). Got about 85%. Thanks for the book suggestion - Mike