lockup strategies

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As some of you may know, recently my bike was damaged beyond repair by a
brain-dead thief who didn't realise you can't use an aluminium frame as
lever to break a d-lock without destroying the frame. Now I am in the
process of buying a new bike and I am reconsidering my lockup strategy.
What are your thoughts on that? Not locking up in public places or using
a second, cheap bike for riding down the pub are not options here
unfortunately.

Up to now, I used a long (29cm) d-lock through frame/front wheel/rails
and a cheap coil lock through rear wheel/frame/rails. The d-lock was
placed in such a way (tight fit with key-hole facing the spokes) that
tampering with the key-hole or forcing the lock open was made very
difficult. As I found out, a thief will still consider cutting through
the coil lock (trivial as we know) and use the frame to twist the d-lock
until it gives in, although the damage caused in the process may render
the whole exercise pointless.

So, how about:
* replacing the coil lock above with one more d-lock. This would make
using the twist trick harder. I've seen other bikes locked up this way
but there is there a weight penalty of course. Considering that, unlike a
coil lock, the d-lock is not flexible, do you think this would make using
certain bike stands impractical?

* swapping the coil lock and the d-lock around. The idea here is that
this should make blindingly obvious that the much thinner tubes of the
rear triangle cannot take the stresses of twisting the d-lock, so there
is no point in even trying.

* attaching a note explaining that aluminium frames get *very* easily
damaged beyond repair. This however could infuriate some thieves.

All this with proper insurance of course. I am considering the CTC/LCC
recommended policy here: http://www.butterworthinsurance.co.uk/ However,
I'll have to contact them about a term saying:

'Machines must be kept in a secured building, not communal entrance or
hallway, and not left in the open overnight, (11pm to 6am).'

which could be read to mean a bike is not covered after drink up time,
even if it is normally kept at home. Any experience of this policy or
alternative options?

TIA

--
Michael Klontzas
'If everything seems to be coming your way,
you're probably in the wrong lane'
(Borstelmann's Rule)

You need to try out several insurance comapnies to see what the detail of
their policy is.

The two D-lock strategy seems a step in the right direction. Bear in mind
you'll need to see what the minimum locking requirements are of any
insurance policy you take out and do *at least* that. The one The Unfit
Family has is a basic 'must be locked to an immovable object with a D-lock"
one, which we've got on our household contents insurance. When we went away
to France, we made sure we'd checked with the insurance company before we
went off so that 1. said company knew we were going 2. still covered bikes
3. any other requirements. One of the quirks of ours is that if we go away
anywhere in the car, if we leave the bikes *in* the *locked* car overnight,
they are not covered by insurance if nicked. BUT, if we have them *on* the
car via the towbar-mounted bike carrier (which is locked to the towbar), and
lock them to the tow-bar with D-locks, then they *are* covered... go figure
the quirks of insurance!

Thankfully where I live, the risk of theft is small. What I do is use a
D-lock to lock main frame to bike stand and then one cable lock around front
wheel, frame & bike stand & second cable lock around rear wheel, frame &
bike stand. Indeed, many the time I find mine can be the only bike that is
locked in a whole row of sheffield stands!

Cheers, helen s

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As some of you may know, recently my bike was damaged beyond repair by a
brain-dead thief who didn't realise you can't use an aluminium frame as
lever to break a d-lock without destroying the frame. Now I am in the
process of buying a new bike and I am reconsidering my lockup strategy.
What are your thoughts on that? Not locking up in public places or using
a second, cheap bike for riding down the pub are not options here
unfortunately.

My method is to secure my rear wheel with a D-Lock with little room for
getting anything in between. My front wheel is then secured to frame and
railings with a cable lock. I also have a favourite place to lock up in
Kingston, which is right in front of a taxi rank. Basically, there is
someone watching my bike all day! I certainly would never consider locking
my bike up in public overnight due to theft and vandalism. I would consider
getting a folding bike or a 'pub' bike if I had to leave out regularly in a
station car park or such.

Quoted message said:

'Machines must be kept in a secured building, not communal entrance or
hallway, and not left in the open overnight, (11pm to 6am).'

which could be read to mean a bike is not covered after drink up time,
even if it is normally kept at home. Any experience of this policy or
alternative options?

This makes me wonder what my default AA policy covers. To be honest, I just
got insured and didn't even look at the small print. Now I can't find it,
will have to dig it out I guess.

in message <[email hidden]>, Michael Klontzas

(') said:

As some of you may know, recently my bike was damaged beyond repair by
a brain-dead thief who didn't realise you can't use an aluminium frame
as lever to break a d-lock without destroying the frame. Now I am in
the process of buying a new bike and I am reconsidering my lockup
strategy. What are your thoughts on that? Not locking up in public
places or using a second, cheap bike for riding down the pub are not
options here unfortunately.

Up to now, I used a long (29cm) d-lock through frame/front wheel/rails
and a cheap coil lock through rear wheel/frame/rails.

Apart from the various locking options people will no doubt suggest, how
about getting a cheap old road bike, converting it to a fixie, and
locking it with a piece of string?

Leaving a good bike locked up where tealeaves abound is going to lead to
it being vandalised beyond repair, even if it isn't stolen. And it's so
damned unpleasant when your favourite bike is trashed or stolen, I
simply would not do it.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As some of you may know, recently my bike was damaged beyond repair by a
brain-dead thief who didn't realise you can't use an aluminium frame as
lever to break a d-lock without destroying the frame. Now I am in the
process of buying a new bike and I am reconsidering my lockup strategy.
What are your thoughts on that? Not locking up in public places or using
a second, cheap bike for riding down the pub are not options here
unfortunately.

Up to now, I used a long (29cm) d-lock through frame/front wheel/rails
and a cheap coil lock through rear wheel/frame/rails. The d-lock was
placed in such a way (tight fit with key-hole facing the spokes) that
tampering with the key-hole or forcing the lock open was made very
difficult. As I found out, a thief will still consider cutting through
the coil lock (trivial as we know) and use the frame to twist the d-lock
until it gives in, although the damage caused in the process may render
the whole exercise pointless.

So, how about:
* replacing the coil lock above with one more d-lock. This would make
using the twist trick harder. I've seen other bikes locked up this way
but there is there a weight penalty of course. Considering that, unlike a
coil lock, the d-lock is not flexible, do you think this would make using
certain bike stands impractical?

* swapping the coil lock and the d-lock around. The idea here is that
this should make blindingly obvious that the much thinner tubes of the
rear triangle cannot take the stresses of twisting the d-lock, so there
is no point in even trying.

* attaching a note explaining that aluminium frames get *very* easily
damaged beyond repair. This however could infuriate some thieves.

All this with proper insurance of course. I am considering the CTC/LCC
recommended policy here: http://www.butterworthinsurance.co.uk/ However,
I'll have to contact them about a term saying:

'Machines must be kept in a secured building, not communal entrance or
hallway, and not left in the open overnight, (11pm to 6am).'

which could be read to mean a bike is not covered after drink up time,
even if it is normally kept at home. Any experience of this policy or
alternative options?

I was going to take out a policy with CTC/LCC and I e-mailed asking for a
copy of the terms and conditions of the policy. They never replied. When
people don't reply to someone who is going to give them money it does make
me wonder what response I would get if I was trying to claim money from
them.

So I just added the bike to my household contents policy, giving details of
the bike and its value. This then covers it for an agreed sum if nicked
while outside the house. Maybe you could do the same?

Derek.

Simon Brooke said:

Apart from the various locking options people will no doubt suggest, how
about getting a cheap old road bike, converting it to a fixie, and
locking it with a piece of string?

I wish I could have two or more bikes for different purposes but that is
not an option here. If you mean that would be the only bike, having
recently upgraded from a cheap MTB to a mid-range hybrid, I must say they
a cheap bike simply doesn't feel the same. Somehow I am not comfortable
with the idea of this compromise and having some thieves tell me what I
should ride. I agree it is a good way to maintain peace of mind though.

Quoted message said:

Leaving a good bike locked up where tealeaves abound is going to lead to
it being vandalised beyond repair, even if it isn't stolen. And it's so
damned unpleasant when your favourite bike is trashed or stolen, I
simply would not do it.

Yes, I know and I wouldn't do it with a really expensive bike either.
Even if you ride door-to-door however there are times you can't avoid
locking up in a public place. Often after work a friend may suggest going
to, say, the cinema. If I say no, because I have to get the bike back
home first, then I am building my life around the bike, rather than the
other way round.

--
Michael Klontzas
'If everything seems to be coming your way,
you're probably in the wrong lane'
(Borstelmann's Rule)

DiddyS400 said:

"Michael Klontzas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Any experience of this policy or
alternative options?

I was going to take out a policy with CTC/LCC and I e-mailed asking for a
copy of the terms and conditions of the policy. They never replied. When
people don't reply to someone who is going to give them money it does make
me wonder what response I would get if I was trying to claim money from
them.

True. It looks like I'll have to look around. I am sure there must be
some sort of online service somewhere comparing rates or at least listing
some options. I'll try to find out. If anyone has done this already, or
he/she is happy with their current policy, please let us know.

Quoted message said:

So I just added the bike to my household contents policy, giving details of
the bike and its value. This then covers it for an agreed sum if nicked
while outside the house. Maybe you could do the same?

Sadly, I can't do that because the household is already covered but bikes
are excluded and I have no control over the policy.

--
Michael Klontzas
'If everything seems to be coming your way,
you're probably in the wrong lane'
(Borstelmann's Rule)

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:02:58 +0000 (UTC), wafflycat wrote:

[useful advice snipped]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I'll have to shop around but it may prove
difficult to find policies specifically designed for bikes.

Quoted message said:

Thankfully where I live, the risk of theft is small. What I do is use a
D-lock to lock main frame to bike stand and then one cable lock around front
wheel, frame & bike stand & second cable lock around rear wheel, frame &
bike stand. Indeed, many the time I find mine can be the only bike that is
locked in a whole row of sheffield stands!

As I found out, this wouldn't be good enough in London sadly. My
impression is the two cable locks would delay a thief with a cutter by
1-2 minutes and then it all depends on how much twisting the d-lock would
take -- another 5 minutes maximum I would guess, possibly a lot less. A
long tube can offer a lot of leverage. The problem with this strategy is
that a thief really needs to carry one, simple tool. The bike itself is
the second tool! I wouldn't be surprised if this was the method of choice
for complete amateur thieves. In this sense, flexible, really heavy duty
locks are probably a better idea.

Datatagging is another idea. Many insurance companies offer discounts,
which means datatagging may pay for itself over time, but there are so
many systems around and I am wondering how successful it would be in
deterring a thief -- it may even infuriate some of them! More research
required.

--
Michael Klontzas
'If everything seems to be coming your way,
you're probably in the wrong lane'
(Borstelmann's Rule)

Quoted message said:

If we leave the bikes *in* the *locked* car overnight, they are not
covered by insurance if nicked. BUT, if we have them *on* the car via the
towbar-mounted bike carrier (which is locked to the towbar), and lock them
to the tow-bar with D-locks, then they *are* covered... go figure the
quirks of insurance!

Yeah, if we go camping our valuables are not insured if they're locked in
the car but OK protected by the massive security of a zip and two layers of
nylon.

Michael Klontzas said:

I wish I could have two or more bikes for different purposes but that is
not an option here.

Is that for reasons of storage? If so, a folder like a Brompton gets
around that problem at home and also solves many security problems. No
need to lock it, you just fold it up and take it in, where it fits under
a desk or in a cupboard.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I know and I wouldn't do it with a really expensive bike either.
Even if you ride door-to-door however there are times you can't avoid
locking up in a public place. Often after work a friend may suggest going
to, say, the cinema. If I say no, because I have to get the bike back
home first, then I am building my life around the bike, rather than the
other way round.

Bromptons and similar really do give you a lot more flexibility in this
regard. I typically don't bother taking a lock with me on at least 50%
of the journeys that involve parking away from home.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Michael Klontzas said:

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I'll have to shop around but it may prove
difficult to find policies specifically designed for bikes.

IME these are rather overpriced. We've come off the CTC and now have a
home contents policy that covers the bikes well (at least as far as we
can tell from looking at the policy). This is effectively free with the
house contents, where CTC's was £350 a year for ~£5,000 worth of bikes,
and not particularly thievable ones at that.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Michael Klontzas said:

I wish I could have two or more bikes for different purposes but that is
not an option here.

Is that for reasons of storage? If so, a folder like a Brompton gets
around that problem at home and also solves many security problems. No
need to lock it, you just fold it up and take it in, where it fits under
a desk or in a cupboard.

That is an idea for a second bike. I know Brompton owners are very
proud of their bikes but would it perform anything like a hybrid bike?
I mean, what does it feel like when you ride 1 hour each way --
something I have to do quite often. I understand they can be quite
pricey too -- not to mention the specially designed bags etc.

Quoted message said:

Bromptons and similar really do give you a lot more flexibility in this
regard. I typically don't bother taking a lock with me on at least 50%
of the journeys that involve parking away from home.

Out of interest, why would you need to lock up if you carry it with
you.

BTW, someone I know of managed to lose three Bromptons. One from inside
his house, one together with his car and once he was beaten up and
robbed in the middle of the street. No prices for guessing what bike he
bought next!

--
Michael Klontzas

Quoted message said:

That is an idea for a second bike. I know Brompton owners are very
proud of their bikes but would it perform anything like a hybrid bike?

Depends what you want performance-wise, really. I use mine as a general
hack bike and I'm happy with it for that, though there's a higher
performance machine sat in the garage. For road use the gear range
isn't as good as on a hybrid, but that's only a problem if the roads
you're using need that bigger range. They don't work as well if you
like to get out of the seat a lot of the time, but I solve that problem
by not getting out of the seat...

Quoted message said:

I understand they can be quite
pricey too -- not to mention the specially designed bags etc.

Depends on one's idea of "pricey". The typical basic model is ~£470,
the minimum spec vanilla is about £360 though AFAICT most Brom owners
here consider that one a false economy. My next door neighbour bought
the £470 model and reckoned it had paid for itself in purely financial
terms within a year.

You don't have to use Brompton's own bags (neighbour doesn't, a friend
with a Brom didn't use a B-Bag for years though he has one now), but if
you do you'll find they work brilliantly and incredibly conveniently.

Quoted message said:

Out of interest, why would you need to lock up if you carry it with
you.

They're a bit heavy to carry around more than, say, 50m. A more typical
strategy is fold it up and carry it in and then leave it somewhere safe
(at Tescos the folk on the customer service desk keep an eye on it, for
example). But sometimes it's easiest just to lock it (say, for visiting
4 shops inside a shopping centre, I'll lock it outside).

There are bikes like the Birdy which do ride better, though don't fold
quite as well and cost a fair deal more. But if I was getting a
one-bike-fits-all a Birdy would be very high on the Possibles list.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I have found https://www.pavilioninsurance.com/payment/products/locklist.asp?product=Cycle&promCode=
a rule of thumb guide. Type of lock to value of bike.
Ian

Michael Klontzas made some suggestions regarding securing bike.

Whatever you do, don't do what I've genuinely seen. A bike with its
wheels (stil in frame) fastened together with a bungee strap, and the
strap locked to the fence. You wonder about some people...

I hope your replacement bike lasts you a long time.

PhilD

--
<><

PhilD said:

Michael Klontzas made some suggestions regarding securing bike.
Whatever you do, don't do what I've genuinely seen. A bike with its
wheels (stil in frame) fastened together with a bungee strap, and the
strap locked to the fence. You wonder about some people...

Another favourite. A cable lock twisted around seemingly holding
everything together. Then you look closely and you realise they missed
the railings completely!

Quoted message said:

I hope your replacement bike lasts you a long time.

Thanks.

--
Michael Klontzas

Peter Clinch wrote (of Bromptons):

Quoted message said:

Depends on one's idea of "pricey". The typical basic model is ~£470,
the minimum spec vanilla is about £360 though AFAICT most Brom owners
here consider that one a false economy. My next door neighbour bought
the £470 model and reckoned it had paid for itself in purely financial
terms within a year.

Does anyone have a copy of A to B from October 2004 handy? I vaguely
remember reading about a Brompton trike conversion, and the A to B
website tells me that it was in that issue. I'd look it up myself, but
I've lent all my back issues to a colleague who's looking at electric bikes.

I've been looking around for a while [1] for a second hand trike for
winter commuting. I might be persuaded to buy a Brompton and convert
it, depending on the cost of conversion. ISTR it was a custom job, though.

[1] A couple of years. Most have been further away than I've been
willing to travel to pick them up. A few months ago a touring trike was
advertised in Cycle, it was the right size, the right price, and local.
I phoned up and found that it had also been advertised in the Tricycle
Association Gazette, which had been published a couple of weeks before
Cycle. By the time I saw the ad, it had already been bought by someone
who had driven all the way down from Hull to collect it :-(

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer said:

Does anyone have a copy of A to B from October 2004 handy? I vaguely
remember reading about a Brompton trike conversion, and the A to B
website tells me that it was in that issue. I'd look it up myself, but
I've lent all my back issues to a colleague who's looking at electric bikes.

Hmm. I thought I had, but most of my back issues aren't where I thought
they were. If it's the one with IR176 stuff in, I lent it to a manager at
work, but I don't know where the rest are.

Quoted message said:

I've been looking around for a while [1] for a second hand trike for
winter commuting. I might be persuaded to buy a Brompton and convert
it, depending on the cost of conversion. ISTR it was a custom job, though.

I think it was. There was a DiBlasi folding trikes in the same issue, I think:
http://www.diblasi.co.uk/Folding_Tricycles.asp?Prd=Tricycles&Pag=Gruppo&Lng=En

Quoted message said:

[1] A couple of years. Most have been further away than I've been
willing to travel to pick them up. A few months ago a touring trike was
advertised in Cycle, it was the right size, the right price, and local.
I phoned up and found that it had also been advertised in the Tricycle
Association Gazette, which had been published a couple of weeks before
Cycle. By the time I saw the ad, it had already been bought by someone
who had driven all the way down from Hull to collect it :-(

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

I said:

Quoted message said:

I've been looking around for a while [1] for a second hand trike for
winter commuting. I might be persuaded to buy a Brompton and convert
it, depending on the cost of conversion. ISTR it was a custom job, though.

and Alan Braggins responded:

Quoted message said:

I think it was. There was a DiBlasi folding trikes in the same issue, I think:
http://www.diblasi.co.uk/Folding_Tricycles.asp?Prd=Tricycles&Pag=Gruppo&Lng=En

Looks interesting, thanks.

--
Danny Colyer (my reply address is valid but checked infrequently)
<URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

In message <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Thankfully where I live, the risk of theft is small. What I do is use a
D-lock to lock main frame to bike stand and then one cable lock around
front wheel, frame & bike stand & second cable lock around rear wheel,
frame & bike stand. Indeed, many the time I find mine can be the only
bike that is locked in a whole row of sheffield stands!

At work, I attach my bike to a railing in the car park beneath the
office block. I think there are some Sheffield stands in the delivery
yard above, but they're open to the elements and not near the entrance
that I use.

First I detach the front wheel (both wheels have quick release skewers),
and use an Abus Granit D-lock to attach this, the frame and the rear
wheel to the railing. Then I take the seat post and saddle off, too
(there's a quick release clamp). All this can be done in about 30
seconds.

The car park isn't visible to passers by and even though it's mainly
used only by other cyclists, drivers and facilities staff who work in
the office blocks above, at least two bikes have been reported stolen
from it in recent months. Some contractors may use it - but they only
get in if the security man in the yard lets them.

I go through the same routine when I attach the bike to the roadside
railing outside the swimming pool where I swim 3-4 times a week. If it's
raining I fasten a plastic bag over the open end of the tube with an
elastic band.

One disadvantage of the lock is the weight, but it means I can stop
virtually anywhere and fasten the bike to something. Another is the
chipped paint work on the bike frame. The bike is a 1986 Evans and,
according to a work colleague, looks 'very old fashioned'. Maybe that's
why I still have it.

--
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