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"Liquid Drive" bike prototype at auction

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Published
26 November 2003
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Chalo
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  1. It looks like the fella behind this CVT hydraulic bike is trying to raise some capital by selling
    off his prototype:

    cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dll

    powerengine.compowerengine.com

    It seems like a cool artifact, if not particularly practical.

    I know this particular bike has come up for discussion before, with a certain amount of pooh-poohing
    of the general concept. Since this thing surfaced again, I've been reflecting on what hypothetical
    advantages a hydraulically driven bike could have over a chain driven bike, which might offset the
    drawbacks of what is almost certainly a heavier, lossier, and more expensive system than chain
    drive. So far I've come up with:

    1) True continuously variable transmission ratio, which this bike has

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available and
    are still rather uncommon. For instance, Hondamatic motorcycles never caught on, though their system
    seemed to work as intended. I'm unconvinced that it's really as desirable as its proponents say.

    How did CVT become associated with the HPV community, when human power seems to tolerate a wide
    range of RPM?

    2) Two-wheel drive, which this bike does not have

    This is another feature that some have tried to provide, while others wonder why. The benefits of
    four-wheel-drive in cars look similarly esoteric to me, yet many people opt to pay a premium for 4WD
    or AWD cars. If such a thing were available for bikes (and without glaring shortcomings), I wonder
    whether there would be any noteworthy handling benefits. I don't ride my bikes in the muck, but
    perhaps those who do would appreciate 2WD?

    3) Integral braking, which the inventor's website mentions, but which does not appear to be
    incorporated into this bike

    I think that having a bike's drive and braking functions integrated into the same apparatus is the
    most desirable potential feature of a hydraulic drivetrain. Check valves could be adjusted to match
    available maximum braking torque to the load, and the force required to close the braking valves
    would be miniscule compared to that required to actuate normal rim or hub brakes.

    4) Possibly less regular maintenance and system wear

    Many hydraulically powered machines work around the clock for years between breakdowns in the
    hydraulic systems. (I am reminded of various forklifts I've worked with, whose batteries always
    seemed to be troublesome but whose hydraulics were seemingly invincible.) Hydraulic systems by their
    nature run in a lubricant bath, and much of the mechanical wear in them occurs to the fluid.

    I am sure that not every cyclist would be willing to give up a noticeable amount of efficiency to
    have a service interval measured in years, but some certainly would if the cost were not offensive.

    5) No intrinsic configuration constraints

    This seems most relevant to suspension bikes, where chain drive and suspension components compete
    for space and exert forces upon each other, and to recumbents, where the rider's behind often
    interrupts the straight line between drive sprocket and driven sprocket. But the hydraulic
    "driveline" is just a pair of hoses, and can be fitted around (or through) other mechanisms. It
    could be routed under the cargo bed of a carrier bike, for instance, or within a frame tube to a
    drive wheel far removed from the crank. Even a crank is not a given; it could just as well be
    treadles or something else yet.

    The possibilities outrun my ability to imagine good uses for them-- so much about the bikes we know
    is just corollary to the chain drive, that it's difficult to imagine what a "normal" bike would be
    like in the absence of one. The high wheeler is what you get when you assume that a bike's cranks
    will drive its axle directly, and the diamond frame with derailleurs is what you get when you assume
    the use of a chain drive. If you don't assume either of those things, then what?

    I suppose the answer to that will have to await another feasible alternative, if there is one.

    Chalo Colina

  2. "Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It looks like the fella behind this CVT hydraulic bike is trying to raise some capital by selling
    off his prototype:

    cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dll

    powerengine.compowerengine.com

    It seems like a cool artifact, if not particularly practical.


    snip

    Quoted message said:

    3) Integral braking, which the inventor's website mentions, but which does not appear to be
    incorporated into this bike

    I think that having a bike's drive and braking functions integrated into the same apparatus is the
    most desirable potential feature of a hydraulic drivetrain. Check valves could be adjusted to
    match available maximum braking torque to the load, and the force required to close the braking
    valves would be miniscule compared to that required to actuate normal rim or hub brakes.


    snip

    Quoted message said:

    Chalo Colina

    Thanks Chalo, I really find these things fun - wish I had time to have a go at building such
    impracticalities....

    Theoretically instead of dispersing the braking energy through turbulence in the hydraulic fluid you
    COULD use the pressure (via an accumulator) to store the energy for future use.

    Not suggesting its at all practical, but makes an interesting mind project. Hugh Fenton

  3. (Chalo) said:

    1) True continuously variable transmission ratio, which this bike has

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available
    and are still rather uncommon. For instance, Hondamatic motorcycles never caught on, though their
    system seemed to work as intended. I'm unconvinced that it's really as desirable as its
    proponents say.

    How did CVT become associated with the HPV community, when human power seems to tolerate a wide
    range of RPM?

    Many years ago my father drove a little DAF car which had a CVT system which operated through pairs
    of opposed cones with a belt linking them; the belt was automatically moved from one end of the
    cones to the other to vary the ratio. The system was remarkably effective and seemed quite a good
    thing, but as you say hasn't been widely adopted (I think there were limitations on how much power
    it could transmit). Similarly, hydraulic CVT gearboxes were around on farm tractors when I was a
    boy, but the vast majority of tractors continue to have mechanical gearboxes.

    I'd like to *try* a CVT bike, particularly off road, but I suspect losses in the system would
    outweigh any advantage.

    Quoted message said:

    2) Two-wheel drive, which this bike does not have

    This is another feature that some have tried to provide, while others wonder why. The benefits of
    four-wheel-drive in cars look similarly esoteric to me, yet many people opt to pay a premium for
    4WD or AWD cars. If such a thing were available for bikes (and without glaring shortcomings), I
    wonder whether there would be any noteworthy handling benefits. I don't ride my bikes in the muck,
    but perhaps those who do would appreciate 2WD?

    All wheel drive on an off-road vehicle is generally a good thing, provided that you have
    limited-slip differentials or the equivalent. If one wheel spinning brings the whole vehicle to a
    halt there isn't a lot of point. However, a pushbike is much lighter than other off road vehicles.
    If you do get into a situation where the back wheel just can't grip the usual solution is to put the
    bike on your shoulder and walk a bit. So AWD isn't that big an issue, although it might be useful on
    loose, gravelly climbs. Again, I'd be most interested to try an AWD off-road bike, but, once again,
    I suspect losses in the system would outweigh any advantage.

    Quoted message said:

    4) Possibly less regular maintenance and system wear

    Many hydraulically powered machines work around the clock for years between breakdowns in the
    hydraulic systems. (I am reminded of various forklifts I've worked with, whose batteries always
    seemed to be troublesome but whose hydraulics were seemingly invincible.) Hydraulic systems by
    their nature run in a lubricant bath, and much of the mechanical wear in them occurs to the fluid.

    I am sure that not every cyclist would be willing to give up a noticeable amount of efficiency to
    have a service interval measured in years, but some certainly would if the cost were not
    offensive.

    Now, for off-road use, that strikes me as being one *substantial* advantage.

    There's a final potential advantage to hydraulic drive which you haven't mentioned, which is power
    buffering or capacitance. When you stand up and stomp on the pedals going up hill, the power
    delivery to the back wheel is anything but smooth and off-road this unsmooth power delivery tends to
    break traction. With a hydro-pneumatic accumulator you could buffer the transmission and smooth out
    the stomping, and that would probably be at least as useful as AWD in marginal traction situations.

    However, the inventor of this creation claims only 90% efficiency. Am I not right in believing that
    deraileur systems achieve about 93%? I know 3% isn't much, but then bicycles are not exactly high
    powered. Still, an interesting system - would definitely be fun to play with!

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.

  4. "Chalo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    It looks like the fella behind this CVT hydraulic bike is trying to raise some capital by selling
    off his prototype:

    cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dll

    powerengine.compowerengine.com

    Quoted message said:

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available
    and are still rather uncommon. For instance, Hondamatic motorcycles never caught on, though their
    system seemed to work as intended. I'm unconvinced that it's really as desirable as its
    proponents say.

    The 750cc Honda with the CVT transmission was a dog. If I recall correctly, it produced about half
    the horsepower at the rear wheel that the regular model did.

    Not many people are willing to buy a 750cc bike that performs like a 250. Another issue against it
    was that the motorcycle community, with it's higher than average level of machismo posturing, did
    not warm up to the introduction of something as un-manly as a full-sized automatic motorcycle.

    Ed Chait

  5. (Chalo) said:

    It looks like the fella behind this CVT hydraulic bike is trying to raise some capital by selling
    off his prototype:

    cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dll

    powerengine.compowerengine.com

    It seems like a cool artifact, if not particularly practical.

    Quick summary of the mechanism as I understand it from reading the website :

    The basic unit consists of an opposed two cylinder 'boxer' layout. The unit can be used either as a
    pump or as a motor. Two 'bottom bracket' actuators are illustrated, one with a single two cylinder
    unit, and the other with two units mounted at ninety degrees to one another, and thus presumably
    providing substantially smoother flow as at least one piston is on its pump stroke at all times.

    So far I've described components of a fixed ratio transmission.

    The CVT bit comes from a very cool idea: a variable offset crank-pin at the pump end. As the
    crankpin offset increases, so the volume of fluid moved per rotation increases, so the effective
    ratio increases. So far so good. But now for the disappointing bit: It's manual. You have a lever on
    your handlebar which varies the offset on the crankpin. I really don't see that that's a significant
    benefit over, say, a Rohloff. Yes, I appreciate that the transmission is stepless, but as you have
    to move the lever to change the ratio, you experience a step, and the difference between 14 steps
    and stepless isn't much.

    It surely shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to manage feedback from the high-pressure side of the
    system to the crankpin offset to get fully automatic CVT, which would be a significant win.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simon

    For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.

  6. Chalo,

    Thanks for the interesting link and comments.

    Last time I looked many powered vehicles in the world were hydraulically driven at least part-time.
    May I present the humble "Torque Convertor".

    Marcus

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

    ...

    Quoted message said:

    However, the inventor of this creation claims only 90% efficiency. Am I not right in believing
    that deraileur systems achieve about 93%? I know 3% isn't much, but then bicycles are not exactly
    high powered. Still, an interesting system - would definitely be fun to play with!

    When clean, a derailleur is more like 95% efficient. Even at 93 vs 90%, your losses are nearly 50%
    higher. Hydraulic systems are not known for efficiency. They are used where high forces and easy
    control are needed, and efficiency isn't a concern.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  8. "Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    All wheel drive on an off-road vehicle is generally a good thing, provided that you have
    limited-slip differentials or the equivalent. If one wheel spinning brings the whole vehicle to a
    halt there isn't a lot of point. However, a pushbike is much lighter than other off road vehicles.
    If you do get into a situation where the back wheel just can't grip the usual solution is to put
    the bike on your shoulder and walk a bit. So AWD isn't that big an issue, although it might be
    useful on loose, gravelly climbs. Again, I'd be most interested to try an AWD off-road bike, but,
    once again, I suspect losses in the system would outweigh any advantage.

    Find a dealer to test out this all-wheel-drive bike: christini.comchristini.com

    AWD is a great addition to a car in slippery conditions. The Audi Quattro was banned from European
    touring car racing because they were deemed to have an unfair advantage.
    audiworld.comcontent.shtml

    While this is great press for cars, I doubt all wheel drive would make much difference in
    bicycle racing.

    -Buck

  9. [email hidden] (Chalo) wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    How did CVT become associated with the HPV community, when human power seems to tolerate a wide
    range of RPM?

    [snip]

    Dear Chalo,

    Do we really tolerate a wide range of RPM?

    I'm open to correction, but my impression is that we actually have a fairly narrow, low RPM power
    band and that this is why only bicycles use the peculiar derailleur system. (Jobst Brandt may have
    said something like this somewhere.)

    That is, many bikes now offer 20-30 front-rear gear arrangements (some duplicates) for an
    effective speed range from about 8 to 40 mph (the upper limit being theoretical for most of us in
    terms of level pedalling). Most engines with a wide range of RPM use only four or five speeds to
    handle 8 to 100+ mph.

    Most of what I see here suggests a cadence ranging from about 80 to 120 RPM, with my glacial 50-60
    RPM being beneath contempt. So our fastest effective RPM seems to be only about twice our lowest
    RPM, while most cars and motorcycles happily idle along at around 800-1,200 RPM and reach 3,000 to
    10,000 RPM, depending on how close they are to racing.

    The best argument against my sissified view of our narrow RPM is probably the fixed-gear crowd, who
    use a single speed to run around. I suspect that they start off noticeably slower and top out much
    sooner, much like a four-speed car stuck in second gear all day. I wouldn't want to ride one on my
    daily ride, since much of it is level (fixed-gearing too low), there's a long trudge up a ride at
    about 10 mph (fixed-gearing too high), and then there's the 40 mph coast back down the hill (God
    bless freewheel ratcheting).

    Of course, my understanding of the matter may be as limited as my pedalling RPM. Oh, yes, how did
    continuously variable transmissions become associated with the human powered vehicle bunch? I
    imagine that it's because they're even more gadget-crazy than we are--until they try something, they
    can't be absolutely sure that they don't like it, and a few more experiments might be even more fun.

    Carl Fogel

  10. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available
    and are still rather uncommon. For instance, Hondamatic motorcycles never caught on, though
    their system seemed to work as intended. I'm unconvinced that it's really as desirable as its
    proponents say.

    How did CVT become associated with the HPV community, when human power seems to tolerate a wide
    range of RPM?

    Many years ago my father drove a little DAF car which had a CVT system which operated through
    pairs of opposed cones with a belt linking them; the belt was automatically moved from one end of
    the cones to the other to vary the ratio. The system was remarkably effective and seemed quite a
    good thing, but as you say hasn't been widely adopted (I think there were limitations on how much
    power it could transmit). Similarly, hydraulic CVT gearboxes were around on farm tractors when I
    was a boy, but the vast majority of tractors continue to have mechanical gearboxes.


    CVTs like you are describing on the DAF have been used successfully in snowmobiles for about 50
    years. 186,000 snowmobiles, all with CVTs, were sold last year so I would say they are quite
    widespread. The biggest snowmobiles are currently putting out 170+ HP, made possible by advances in
    belt and clutch technology. The CVT is a simple, effective, and efficient transmission. The biggest
    hurdle to clear for automotive use has been building a belt that can handle high loads. Snowmobilers
    think nothing of putting a new belt on every 2000 miles or so, as 2000 miles is a long way by
    snowmobile. That is not acceptable in a car, I believe all current automotive applications are using
    some form of steel link belt.

    Polaris also uses a CVT in most of their ATVs. I'm not sure exactly what they are, as I don't ATV,
    but I think they are belt driven. They sell a ton of them.

    In a bike? That is an interesting idea, but I don't think we could pedal fast enough to get good
    clamping force on the belt. The hydraulic CVT would be fun to try.

  11. In rec.bicycles.misc Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : advantages a hydraulically driven bike could have over a chain driven bike, which might offset the
    : drawbacks of what is almost certainly a heavier, lossier, and more expensive system than chain
    : drive. So far

    So besides the obvious issue of whether it can be made to work in practice, there is the issue
    whether the efficiency can be improved. Even with some serious advantages, I'd guess many serious
    cyclists stay away from a system that loses them 5% or so of efficiency.

    : 2) Two-wheel drive, which this bike does not have

    : This is another feature that some have tried to provide, while others wonder why. The benefits of
    : four-wheel-drive in cars look similarly esoteric to me, yet many people opt to pay a premium for
    : 4WD or AWD cars. If such a thing were available for bikes (and without glaring shortcomings), I
    : wonder whether there would be any noteworthy handling benefits. I don't ride my bikes in the muck,
    : but perhaps those who do would appreciate 2WD?

    A drive on both rear wheels of a delta trike would be preferable. With just one wheel driving they
    can have a tendency to turn one way when going uphill. If you have two wheels driving the traction
    is also better as one wheel slipping won't matter much then.

    It would make drive design easier on trikes (and recumbents in general). In an effort to
    eliminate the long chain, some people currently create forward-driven designs. This introduces
    some issues such as whether the chain needs to twist etc. The long chain would be eliminated with
    a hydraulic system but also you could probably easily make interesting designs such as a tadpole
    trike with the drive in both of the front wheels. (Of course such exist already but they might
    just become trivial.)

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

  12. In rec.bicycles.misc Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
    : The CVT bit comes from a very cool idea: a variable offset crank-pin at the pump end. As the
    : crankpin offset increases, so the volume of fluid moved per rotation increases, so the effective
    : ratio increases. So far so good. But now for the disappointing bit: It's manual. You have a lever
    : on your handlebar which varies the offset on the crankpin. I really don't see that that's a
    : significant benefit over, say, a Rohloff. Yes, I appreciate that the transmission is stepless, but
    : as you have to move the lever to change the ratio, you experience a step, and the difference
    : between 14 steps and stepless isn't much.

    Stepless means also that you can make very small adjustments, and have the exact gain ratio you
    require for a given riding situation.

    Another exciting possibility would be a very wide gear range. At least recumbent trikes can use a
    very wide gear range as they can reach high speeds going downhill but can also be ridden very
    slowly uphill.

    Not to mention racing vehicles with a 16" rear wheel - you wouldn't need the large chainrings
    for those.

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

  13. In rec.bicycles.misc Phil <[email hidden]> wrote:

    : In a bike? That is an interesting idea, but I don't think we could pedal fast enough to get good
    : clamping force on the belt. The hydraulic CVT would be fun to try.

    Would uneven pedalling forces also be an issue?

    AFAIR there are some - very few - recumbents that are belt-driven. It's not the most
    popular chainfree drivetrain option. I think the Thys rowingbikes use a wire instead of a
    chain, for example.

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

  14. (Chalo) said:

    It looks like the fella behind this CVT hydraulic bike is trying to

    It says that it's a constant 1:2 ratio in the description. Where did you see CVT?

    Quoted message said:

    cgi.ebay.comeBayISAPI.dll

    Quoted message said:

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available and
    are still rather uncommon. For instance,


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    How did CVT become associated with the HPV community, when human power seems to tolerate a wide
    range of RPM?

    Probably a similar answer as to my question: Why do we have 10 speed cassettes with sprockets that
    are one or two teeth different from the next? Apparently, tolerance != efficiency (probably not
    enough so to make the drivetrain efficiency loss worth it, though).

    Quoted message said:

    This is another feature that some have tried to provide, while others wonder why. The benefits of
    four-wheel-drive in cars look similarly esoteric to me, yet many people opt to pay a premium for
    4WD or AWD

    In cars, there are these effects:
    1. In slippery conditions, you're less likely to get stuck
    2. In slippery conditions, with only one axle driving, with a steady amount of throttle (enough
    only to maintain a speed), hitting a low-traction spot can result in loss of lateral traction
    for the tires on that axle. This is not a big deal for FWD but easily causes spinouts with RWD.
    3. An AWD sportscar can produce a great powerslide (I think). I imagine that it combines a classic
    RWD powerslide with the FWD powerslide that I practiced (which, I believe, most people don't
    know is possible, but is really easy). If the front lacks lateral traction, and you're steering
    the way you want to go, and you give it gas, the tires rotation will pull you in the direction
    they're pointed. If the rear is loose, then the rear wheels give the classic RWD powerslide.

    AFAIK, a RWD powerslide is damn near impossible to do on clean, dry pavement. FWD powerslides work
    fine with such traction.

    Disclaimer: Don't try it! The "FWD powerslide", as I call it, is extremely dangerous and requires a
    commitment to keeping full throttle through the whole curve. As soon as you let go of the throttle,
    the front wheels will let go and you will plow straight ahead regardless of where you steer.
    Additionally, front traction may exceed rear traction, in which case you have nearly impossible to
    correct oversteer. If you brake, you will absolutely unweight the rear tires and spin out.

    Quoted message said:

    cars. If such a thing were available for bikes (and without glaring shortcomings), I wonder whether
    there would be any noteworthy handling benefits. I don't ride my bikes in the muck, but perhaps
    those who do would appreciate 2WD?

    Handling benefits would only show up in very low traction situations (snow, mud, deep sand).
    Actually, it would be useful in deep sand.

    However, the point would be for steep, loose hills. You get to concentrate on pedalling instead of
    having to devote attention to maintaining traction. There is a hill I can't get up; I even have
    super low gears on my MTB, but in the end, I can't seem to throw my weight around for proper
    traction. The only person who I've seen make it up the hill went in with loads of speed and was
    strong enough to _never_ slow down at all. He was in a pretty high gear, too.

    Technique can make it work, but it sure would be nice to have technology to help.

    Quoted message said:

    3) Integral braking, which the inventor's website mentions, but which does not appear to be
    incorporated into this bike

    I think that having a bike's drive and braking functions integrated into the same apparatus is the
    most desirable potential feature of a hydraulic drivetrain. Check valves could be adjusted to match
    available maximum braking torque to the load, and the force required to close the braking valves
    would be miniscule compared to that required to actuate normal rim or hub brakes.

    To be useful, it would need two-wheel-drive, and separate drives for front and rear, else you
    wouldn't be able to proportion it. Sounds cool.

    Quoted message said:

    5) No intrinsic configuration constraints drive wheel far removed from the crank. Even a crank is
    not a given; it could just as well be treadles or something else yet.

    That would be cool, some different form of interface. What are treadles? Maybe foot and hand
    pedalling could be combined.

    Quoted message said:

    chain drive. If you don't assume either of those things, then what?

    How about a bike shaped like a cow? That would be cool.

    Quoted message said:

    I suppose the answer to that will have to await another feasible alternative, if there is one.

    There probably is one, and probably nobody will come up with it till long after we're all dead. I
    hope that statement is wrong.

    Quoted message said:

    Chalo Colina


    --
    Rick Onanian

  15. In article <[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke

    Quoted message said:
    (Chalo) said:

    1) True continuously variable transmission ratio, which this bike has

    Some people insist we want CVT, but hydraulically driven vehicles have always had it available
    and are still rather uncommon. For instance, Hondamatic motorcycles never caught on, though their
    system seemed to work as intended.

    The Hondamatics didn't catch on because motorcyclists in the US are interested in sport, and not
    solely in practical commuting.

    The Rokon and Husqvarna automatic dirt bikes were moderately sucessful but failed because of
    reliability issues. (Rokons would lose drive if the belt got wet, and the Husky transmissions would
    blow up and give you four automatic neutrals).

    OTOH, there are a lot of new Audis running around with "six speed" computer-controlled CVTs.

    Quoted message said:

    which operated through pairs of opposed cones with a belt linking them; the belt was automatically
    moved from one end of the cones to the other to vary the ratio. The system was remarkably effective
    and seemed quite a good thing, but as you say hasn't been widely adopted (I think there were
    limitations on how much power it could transmit). Similarly, hydraulic CVT gearboxes were around on
    farm tractors when I was a boy, but the vast majority of tractors continue to have mechanical
    gearboxes.

    Most newer small diesel and garden tractors in the US are hydrostatic. Essentially zero
    maintenance, and MUCH easier to use for mowing or front-end loader work... or anything except
    plowing straight lines.

    Quoted message said:

    All wheel drive on an off-road vehicle is generally a good thing, provided that you have
    limited-slip differentials or the equivalent. If one wheel spinning brings the whole vehicle to a
    halt there isn't a lot of point. However, a pushbike is much lighter than other off road vehicles.
    If you do get into a situation where the back wheel just can't grip the usual solution is to put
    the bike on your shoulder and walk a bit. So AWD isn't that big an issue, although it might be
    useful on loose, gravelly climbs.

    The front wheel doens't have much traction on climbs since all the weight is transfered to the rear.

    Yamaha have done some experimental 2wd off-road motorcycles, and have even run them in rally raids
    (similar to the Paris-Dakar). The hydraulic 2wd WR450 is supposed to go on sale to the general
    public in the 2004 model year, although I'll beleive it when I see it.

    The description I read sounds like it's very different from a normal rwd dirt bike to ride.

    Quoted message said:

    However, the inventor of this creation claims only 90% efficiency. Am I not right in believing that
    deraileur systems achieve about 93%? I know 3% isn't much, but then bicycles are not exactly high
    powered. Still, an interesting system - would definitely be fun to play with!

    I think bicycles are more like 98% efficient, if that's the case 90% would really suck.

    Eric

  16. Eric M said:

    The front wheel doens't have much traction on climbs since all the weight is transfered to
    the rear.

    Well, AWD would be welcome when the rear wheel loses traction. Consider that on steep, loose hills,
    riders tend to lean [sometimes excessively] far forward to balance and pedal.

    Quoted message said:

    Eric


    --
    Rick Onanian

  17. Rick Onanian wrote:

    Foregoing Text Snipped

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This is another feature that some have tried to provide, while others wonder why. The benefits of
    four-wheel-drive in cars look similarly esoteric to me, yet many people opt to pay a premium for
    4WD or AWD

    In cars, there are these effects:
    1. In slippery conditions, you're less likely to get stuck
    2. In slippery conditions, with only one axle driving, with a steady amount of throttle (enough
    only to maintain a speed), hitting a low-traction spot can result in loss of lateral traction
    for the tires on that axle. This is not a big deal for FWD but easily causes spinouts with
    RWD.
    3. An AWD sportscar can produce a great powerslide (I think). I imagine that it combines a
    classic RWD powerslide with the FWD powerslide that I practiced (which, I believe, most
    people don't know is possible, but is really easy). If the front lacks lateral traction, and
    you're steering the way you want to go, and you give it gas, the tires rotation will pull you
    in the direction they're pointed. If the rear is loose, then the rear wheels give the classic
    RWD powerslide.

    A four wheel drive car will do great power slides given enough horse power or too little tire. Four
    wheel drive is truly an enlightening experience in limited traction conditions. Sadly people don't
    realize that the same can't be said for braking and they stop just like everything else.

    Quoted message said:


    AFAIK, a RWD powerslide is damn near impossible to do on clean, dry pavement. FWD powerslides work
    fine with such traction.


    Unless underpowered or heavily understeering most rear wheel drive vehicles can be tossed sideways
    under power. A lot of high powered RWD cars can be driven sideways almost anywhere, although it is
    rarely the quick way around a corner.

    Quoted message said:

    Disclaimer: Don't try it! The "FWD powerslide", as I call it, is extremely dangerous and requires
    a commitment to keeping full throttle through the whole curve. As soon as you let go of the
    throttle, the front wheels will let go and you will plow straight ahead regardless of where you
    steer. Additionally, front traction may exceed rear traction, in which case you have nearly
    impossible to correct oversteer. If you brake, you will absolutely unweight the rear tires and
    spin out.

    In my experience in all surface conditions, front wheel drive vehicles will tend to push wider and
    wider as they are turned under power. As this happens one must apply more steering which will turn
    around and bite you if you back off and the weight transfers forward the wheels no longer have to
    transfer power and round you go. At least this is my take on the phenomena. This effect can be quite
    nasty I have a couple of 100+ mph dry pavement spins under my belt and a 60mph roll over, sometimes
    the unexpected will make one turn down the wick too quickly no braking required.

    The closest I ever get to a FWD Power slide is through left foot braking with the power applied,
    this techique can be used to perform a balancing act between front and rear traction and has an
    effect similar to the handbrake turn when pushed to the max. It is brutal on brake components.

    Stupid driving tricks should be avoided on public roads and always well away from bicyclists.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    cars. If such a thing were available for bikes (and without glaring shortcomings), I wonder
    whether there would be any noteworthy handling benefits. I don't ride my bikes in the muck, but
    perhaps those who do would appreciate 2WD?

    Handling benefits would only show up in very low traction situations (snow, mud, deep sand).
    Actually, it would be useful in deep sand.

    However, the point would be for steep, loose hills. You get to concentrate on pedalling instead of
    having to devote attention to maintaining traction. There is a hill I can't get up; I even have
    super low gears on my MTB, but in the end, I can't seem to throw my weight around for proper
    traction. The only person who I've seen make it up the hill went in with loads of speed and was
    strong enough to _never_ slow down at all. He was in a pretty high gear, too.

    Technique can make it work, but it sure would be nice to have technology to help.


    My off road bicycle experience is limited but I find on really steep loose surfaces it becomes a
    balancing act trying to keep the front end planted on the hill without the rear loosing traction, I
    can see under these circumstances a benefit to having the front wheel driven although I wonder if
    this benefit is out weighed by have to drag around the mechanism the rest of the time.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    3) Integral braking, which the inventor's website mentions, but which does not appear to be
    incorporated into this bike

    I think that having a bike's drive and braking functions integrated into the same apparatus is the
    most desirable potential feature of a hydraulic drivetrain. Check valves could be adjusted to
    match available maximum braking torque to the load, and the force required to close the braking
    valves would be miniscule compared to that required to actuate normal rim or hub brakes.

    To be useful, it would need two-wheel-drive, and separate drives for front and rear, else you
    wouldn't be able to proportion it. Sounds cool.

    Quoted message said:

    5) No intrinsic configuration constraints drive wheel far removed from the crank. Even a crank is
    not a given; it could just as well be treadles or something else yet.

    That would be cool, some different form of interface. What are treadles? Maybe foot and hand
    pedalling could be combined.

    Quoted message said:

    chain drive. If you don't assume either of those things, then what?

    How about a bike shaped like a cow? That would be cool.


    That just ain't normal studyguide.orgcowasaki.jpg

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I suppose the answer to that will have to await another feasible alternative, if there is one.

    There probably is one, and probably nobody will come up with it till long after we're all dead. I
    hope that statement is wrong.


    I think this system might have benefit in the world of motor assisted bicyles where the inefficiency
    and weight would be less of a drawback. Forward, brake and reverse all in one lever ;-)

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Chalo Colina

    --
    Rick Onanian

    Marcus

  18. Rick Onanian said:


    ... How about a bike shaped like a cow? That would be cool....

    See <http://www.chicagotraveler.com/cows/235.jpg>

    Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

  19. In rec.bicycles.misc Eric M <[email hidden]> wrote:

    : I think bicycles are more like 98% efficient, if that's the case 90% would really suck.

    AFAIK chain efficiency depends on whether you run it in laboratory conditions (maybe a bottom
    fairing or casing it all in an oil bath would do the trick too) or if the chain is dirty from all
    the real-world stuff flying around on roads...

    --
    Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

  20. Quoted message said:

    The best argument against my sissified view of our narrow RPM is probably the fixed-gear crowd,
    who use a single speed to run around. I suspect that they start off noticeably slower and top out
    much sooner, much like a four-speed car stuck in second gear all day.

    Hey buddy, how can I get this car out of second gear?

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