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Linus Pauling...

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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20 May 2004
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Dave Wickware
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  1. Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview, His
    Reputation Continues to Grow © By Peter Barry Chowka

    (April 1, 2004) On August 19, 1994, Linus Pauling, PhD died
    of cancer at age 93 at his home in Big Sur, California. The
    only person to win two unshared Nobel prizes (for Chemistry
    in 1954 and Peace in 1962), Pauling, during the last 25
    years of his life, became a vocal and uniquely effective
    advocate for vitamin C and nutritional medicine. He has
    been given credit by many people for almost single handedly
    making vitamin C the most popular and widely used
    nutritional supplement in the world and for helping to
    significantly advance the fields of clinical nutrition,
    primary prevention, and "orthomolecular" medicine (a term
    he coined).

    On April 9, 1994, four months before his death, Pauling gave
    his last feature-length interview, to this writer. It was
    the eighth time since 1980 that I had interviewed him. The
    venue for our final conversation was a live radio talk show
    in San Diego, California that I was hosting. On that
    Saturday morning at 9 am, Pauling appeared on the program by
    telephone live from his ranch in Big Sur.

    The anniversary of that interview is April 9, 2004. The
    decade that has passed provides an opportunity to reflect on
    both the content of the interview and the fact that a talk
    radio program provided the context for
    it.

    During the quarter of a century after his involvement with
    vitamin C and orthomolecular medicine began in 1970,
    Pauling used the media - particularly radio and TV talk
    shows - to discuss his work and to spread the gospel of
    natural healing. Over the years, he was a frequent guest on
    every kind of program from nationally syndicated television
    talk shows like the one hosted during the 1970s and '80s by
    Merv Griffin to radio call-in programs in local markets,
    like that one I was doing in San Diego in 1994 on station
    KCEO AM 1000.

    As media guru (and later, founder of the Fox News Channel)
    Roger Ailes explained in his 1987 book You Are the Message,
    an author or thought leader is only as successful in the
    media as the reality and legitimacy of his personality and
    message. Pauling unequivocally embodied the messages he was
    espousing: independence, empowerment, and health.

    In the decade since his death, much of what Pauling
    pioneered, in terms of vitamin C, the antioxidants, and
    nutritional medicine, has been validated. For example, the
    Canadian Medical Association Journal published several
    articles in its February 6, 2001 issue about vitamin C. The
    editorial notes, "In the past decade, however, interest in
    vitamin C has been revitalized with a new understanding of
    its biochemistry. Ascorbic acid, an antioxidant, is now
    known to be a specific electron donor for 8 enzymes, and it
    may have more biologic functions than just preventing
    scurvy. In this issue, Sebastian J. Padayatty and Mark
    Levine review these developments and argue that subclinical
    vitamin C deficiency may be more common than we think (page
    353).

    "On page 351 L. John Hoffer argues that it is also time to
    re-evaluate vitamin C's possible usefulness in managing
    cancer. Pointing out errors in the design of the randomized
    trials of vitamin C therapy published in the 1970s, Hoffer
    argues that although there are other possible explanations
    we cannot rule out high-dose intravenous vitamin C as the
    cause of the remissions in [Ewan] Cameron's patients.
    [Cameron, a Scottish surgeon (1922-1991), became Pauling's
    close collaborator and the medical director of the Linus
    Pauling Institute for Science and Medicine.] Such a thing is
    no longer implausible. As science advances, so does the
    potential for a miracle."

    An excerpt from Pauling's last interview is interesting to
    consider now, a decade after it was first broadcast:

    PETER CHOWKA: For many years you and your colleagues faced
    an uphill battle with the medical powers-that-be in terms of
    your inability to get a fair hearing for your ideas about
    vitamin C and for nutritional medicine in general. Has that
    situation changed?

    LINUS PAULING, PhD: Oh I think it has been changing.
    Scientists have tended to follow my recommendations, but
    I've had more trouble with the medical establishment--they
    seem to me to be biased, not to have an open mind with
    respect to information that becomes available about
    vitamins and other nutrients in relation to cancer and
    other diseases.

    Recently, in the last year or so, part of my effort has been
    to counteract a strange stance on the part of the medical
    establishment: They have now accepted the fact that
    antioxidants taken in foods cut down on the incidence of
    cancer. But in their books and articles they still say "but
    don't take vitamin supplements." This is completely
    illogical from my point of view. They don't give any
    arguments at all to support the statement. A paper by James
    Enstrom, Ph.D., and his associates shows how valuable even a
    little extra vitamin C in the form of a supplement is.10

    CHOWKA: Your comments about the medical establishment
    suggest another question. In 1982 you said that, in your
    view, it was the American public that was primarily
    responsible for the changing face of modern medicine,
    especially for most of the progressive momentum. Is that
    still your view today?

    PAULING: Oh yes! I think that the public as a whole
    responded better to the statements that Cameron and I or
    Hoffer and I were making than the medical establishment. Ten
    years ago people were telling me, "I told my doctor I was
    taking a gram of vitamin C per day or three grams of vitamin
    C per day and he said 'You mustn't do that, that'll kill
    you, those vitamins are poisonous.'" Five years ago people
    began reporting to me, "I told the doctor I was taking
    several grams of vitamin C per day and he said, 'Well, that
    won't hurt you. Go ahead if you want to. It probably won't
    do any good. But if you want to take it, go ahead.'" Today,
    of course, doctors are apt to say "That's fine, perhaps it
    is doing good for you," especially when the patient shows up
    in much better shape than the doctor had expected and says,
    "I think the reason is high doses of vitamin C and vitamin E
    and so on that I've been taking." Doctors tend to agree with
    that point of view now. I don't know to what extent doctors
    take the initiative in prescribing vitamins for their
    seriously ill patients. But I think many of them are at
    least open to it now.

  2. "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview, His
    Reputation Continues to Grow

    Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories were
    concerned is very shaky.

    Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    either treating or preventing the common cold.

    The same articles quoted in this piece ("Canadian Medical
    Association Journal published several articles in its
    February 6, 2001" --- alt writers rarely seem to read or
    understand scientific papers) actually showed that megadose
    vitamin C is a wasteful sham. The body is completely
    saturated with Vitamin C at levels of about 1G per day. Even
    at dosages below that it starts to be excreted in the urine,
    and at very high levels it not absorbed, eventually causing
    diarrhoea.

    Pauling's claims about nutritional therapies of cancer have
    not been borne out. There have been a number of studies of
    oral vitamin C in cancer that showed no effect. Hoffer's
    megavitamin therapy was recently studied via a cohort trial
    on breast cancer patients, and showed no survival benefit.
    There remains a possibility that very high dose intravenous
    vitamin C may occasionally have a useful effect on cancer,
    but Pauling never distinguished between oral or
    intraveneous..

    Then there is his rather amateurish usage of Hardin Jones
    archaic and erroneous theories in analysis of Hoffer's
    patients. There were clearly many terminal patients among
    Hoffer's patients and Hardin Jones himself indicated that
    his statistical theories did not apply to them.

    Peter Moran

  3. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview,
    His Reputation Continues to Grow

    Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories
    were concerned is very shaky.

    Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    either treating or preventing the common cold.

    Perhaps flawed/miinterpreted studies?

    Quoted message said:

    The same articles quoted in this piece ("Canadian Medical
    Association Journal published several articles in its
    February 6, 2001" --- alt writers rarely seem to read or
    understand scientific papers) actually showed that
    megadose vitamin C is


    a

    Quoted message said:

    wasteful sham. The body is completely saturated with
    Vitamin C at levels


    of

    Quoted message said:

    about 1G per day. Even at dosages below that it starts to
    be excreted in the urine, and at very high levels it not
    absorbed, eventually causing diarrhoea.

    I would ask CMA why do animals produce this high
    concentration? Do stressed people use more ascorbate?

    Quoted message said:

    Pauling's claims about nutritional therapies of cancer
    have not been borne out. There have been a number of
    studies of oral vitamin C in cancer that showed no effect.
    Hoffer's megavitamin therapy was recently studied via


    a

    Quoted message said:

    cohort trial on breast cancer patients, and showed no
    survival benefit. There remains a possibility that very
    high dose intravenous vitamin C may occasionally have a
    useful effect on cancer, but Pauling never distinguished
    between oral or intraveneous..

    If you look at the cancer study wrt. to vitamin c (Moertel
    Mayo Study) :- Quote (Moss : The Cancer Industry p223:224)

    Examination of the paper lead most impartial observers to
    conclude that the test was fair. At first reading, in fact,
    it appeared that the Mayo researchers had exactly duplicated
    the Pauling-Cameron protocols. Yet according to the
    California chemist :-

    The Mayo Clinic paper was written in such a way that in
    his opinion it would give nearly every reader of the paper
    the impression that the Mayo Clinic patients had been
    treated in the same way as Dr. Cameron's patients, which
    is false (ibid.).

    Yet in the Mayo Study one can read in the small print that
    'therapy was continued as long as the patient was able to
    take oral medication or until there was evidence of marketed
    progression of the malignant disease' (Moertel, 1985)
    Progression is defined as

    An increase of more than 50 percent in the product of
    the perpendicular diameters of any area of known
    disease, if new areas of malignant disease appeared, if
    there was substantial worsening of symptoms or
    performance status, or if there was loss of body weight
    of 10 percent or more (ibid)

    In other words at any sign of worsening, even of subjective
    symptoms or "perfomance status," the treatment wth vitamin c
    was discontinued. Because of this odd departure from
    Cameron's protocol, patients in the treatment arm of the
    experiment recieved vitamin c for a medium time of only ten
    weeks. None of the Mayo pteitns died while receiving it.
    Their deaths occurred after the vitamin had been taken away
    from them. To understand the implication of this, imagine a
    patient who received vitamin c and then experiences a
    downturn - a new tumour, an increase in pain, or loss of
    ambulatory ability. The logical thing might seem to be
    maintain, or even increase the dose. Instead, however, the
    Mayo Clinic at that point would cut off the treatment! They
    would put the patient on toxic chemotherapy. When that
    didn't work, and the patient worsened and died, that was
    registered as a failure for vitamin C. What the Mayo Clinic
    was measuring was "the impact on life span of taking vitamin
    c only for a period up until the tumour began to grow again"
    (Richards 1986) The second objection was that this sudden
    withdrawal of vitamin C might have actually accelerated the
    decline of these patients One of the drawbacks of vitamin c
    therapy is the rebound effect.....

    Quoted message said:

    Then there is his rather amateurish usage of Hardin Jones
    archaic and erroneous theories in analysis of Hoffer's
    patients. There were clearly many terminal patients among
    Hoffer's patients and Hardin Jones himself indicated that
    his statistical theories did not apply to them.

    Peter Moran

    Anth

  4. 004 05-18-04 17:17
    Dave posted:
    da> Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview,
    da> His Reputation Continues to Grow

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> replied:
    Mo> Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories
    Mo> were concerned is very shaky.

    Mo> Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    Mo> either treating or preventing the common cold.

    Funny you say that. In my cow's milk drinking days,
    whenever I developed a bad common cold, I would take a
    great amount of Vitamin C. It really seemed to lessen
    the common cold.

    However, now that I have STOPPED the drinking of cow's
    milk & diary, I do NOT get real common colds any more.

    ... End of message 19 May 04 10:40 ___ Blue Wave/386
    v2.30 [NR]

  5. Anth said:

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview,
    His Reputation Continues to Grow

    Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories
    were concerned is very shaky.

    Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    either treating or preventing the common cold.

    Perhaps flawed/miinterpreted studies?

    And if they showed that Vitamin C worked do you think that
    Anth would suspect flawed/misinterpreted studies?? Anth has
    made up his mind about Vitamins. It is pointless to convince
    him otherwise.

    But I respect his right to take as many vitamins as his
    little heart desires.

    Aloha,

    Rich

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance

  6. "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview,
    His Reputation Continues to Grow

    Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories
    were concerned is very shaky.

    Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    either treating


    or

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    preventing the common cold.

    Perhaps flawed/miinterpreted studies?

    Quoted message said:

    The same articles quoted in this piece ("Canadian
    Medical Association Journal published several articles
    in its February 6, 2001" --- alt writers rarely seem
    to read


    or

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    understand scientific papers) actually showed that
    megadose vitamin C


    is

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    wasteful sham. The body is completely saturated with
    Vitamin C at


    levels

    Quoted message said:

    of

    Quoted message said:

    about 1G per day. Even at dosages below that it starts
    to be excreted


    in

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the urine, and at very high levels it not absorbed,
    eventually causing diarrhoea.

    I would ask CMA why do animals produce this high
    concentration? Do stressed people use more ascorbate?

    Quoted message said:

    Pauling's claims about nutritional therapies of cancer
    have not been


    borne

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    out. There have been a number of studies of oral vitamin
    C in cancer


    that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    showed no effect. Hoffer's megavitamin therapy was
    recently studied


    via

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    cohort trial on breast cancer patients, and showed no
    survival benefit. There remains a possibility that very
    high dose intravenous vitamin C


    may

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    occasionally have a useful effect on cancer, but Pauling
    never distinguished between oral or intraveneous..

    If you look at the cancer study wrt. to vitamin c (Moertel
    Mayo Study) :- Quote (Moss : The Cancer Industry p223:224)

    Examination of the paper lead most impartial observers to
    conclude that


    the

    Quoted message said:

    test was fair. At first reading, in fact, it appeared
    that the Mayo researchers had exactly duplicated the Pauling-
    Cameron protocols. Yet according to the California
    chemist :-

    The Mayo Clinic paper was written in such a way that in
    his opinion it


    would

    Quoted message said:

    give nearly every reader of the paper the impression that
    the Mayo Clinic patients had been treated in the same way
    as Dr. Cameron's patients, which is false (ibid.).

    Yet in the Mayo Study one can read in the small print that
    'therapy was continued as long as the patient was able to
    take oral medication or until there was evidence of
    marketed progression of the malignant disease' (Moertel,
    1985) Progression is defined as

    An increase of more than 50 percent in the product of
    the perpendicular diameters of any area of known
    disease, if new areas of malignant disease appeared, if
    there was substantial worsening of symptoms or
    performance status, or if there was loss of body weight
    of 10 percent or more (ibid)

    In other words at any sign of worsening, even of
    subjective symptoms or "perfomance status," the treatment
    wth vitamin c was discontinued. Because of this odd
    departure from Cameron's protocol, patients in the
    treatment arm of the experiment recieved vitamin c for a
    medium time of


    only

    Quoted message said:

    ten weeks. None of the Mayo pteitns died while receiving
    it. Their deaths occurred after the vitamin had been taken
    away from them. To understand the implication of this,
    imagine a patient who received vitamin c and then
    experiences a downturn - a new tumour, an increase in
    pain, or loss of ambulatory ability. The logical thing
    might seem to be maintain, or even increase the dose.
    Instead, however, the Mayo Clinic at that point would cut
    off the treatment! They would put the patient on


    toxic

    Quoted message said:

    chemotherapy. When that didn't work, and the patient
    worsened and died,


    that

    Quoted message said:

    was registered as a failure for vitamin C. What the Mayo
    Clinic was measuring was "the impact on life span of
    taking vitamin c only for a period up until the tumour
    began to grow again" (Richards 1986)

    This is scraping the bottom of the barrel for any excuse.
    How long do you think it takes for cancers to increase by
    fifty per cent in size, for obvious new areas of cancer
    to appear, for substantial worsening of symptoms to
    occur, or for weight loss of 10 per cent or more to
    develop? It takes some weeks, and to pretend that
    continued treatment would turn things around after such
    clear deterioration is contrary to all sense and all
    other experience with useful cancer treatments. It is
    also contrary to Cameron's experience with Vitamin C
    which claimed immediate symptomatic benefits and necrosis
    of tumours on autopsy studies.

    The only criticism of these studies devolves upon the fact
    that no one knew then, not even Cameron or Pauling, that
    blood levels of vitamin C are tightly controlled.
    Intravenous vitamin C should have been used to produce the
    higher blood levels possible possible via that route. This
    was done initially in all patients by Cameron.. .

    Interestingly, Pauling himself (and presumably also Cameron)
    saw only "one important difference" between the trial and
    Cameron's Vale of Leven study. His only criticism was that
    some patients had received prior chemotherapy whereas only
    four of Cameron's patient's had (see Cameron and Pauling's
    book "Vitamin C and Cancer"😉.

    But a second Mayo clinic trial of patients with
    colorectal cancer who had not received chemotherapy also
    showed no benefit.

    Paradoxically, and despite this criticism of the Mayo
    studies, Pauling made a big thing about Hoffer's patients
    having the same rate of usage of chemotherapy by his control
    patients and treated patients, even while claiming survival
    benefits for oral vitamin C (see "Hardin Jones
    Biostatistical analysis of Mortality Data ----", Journal Of
    Orthomolecular Medicine 5(3):143-154, 1990).

    Like all of us, he was a fallible figure. He showed poor
    scientific rigour in matters he was enthusiastic about ,
    especially when he ventured outside his main area of
    expertise.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:

    The second objection was that this sudden withdrawal of
    vitamin C might


    have

    Quoted message said:

    actually accelerated the decline of these patients One of
    the drawbacks of vitamin c therapy is the rebound
    effect...

    ..

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Then there is his rather amateurish usage of Hardin
    Jones archaic and erroneous theories in analysis of
    Hoffer's patients. There were


    clearly

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    many terminal patients among Hoffer's patients and
    Hardin Jones himself indicated that his statistical
    theories did not apply to them.

    Peter Moran

    Anth

  7. If the did the exact study and it was well designed then yes
    I would believe it, as I've told you before. How's about
    this, you made some claims about something, things that you
    had witnessed in your own practice, the someone comes along
    does what they claim that you have and got no results?
    Wouldn't that [censored] you off? Anth

    <Rich.@.> wrote in message news:40babf03.172122968@news-
    server.hawaii.rr.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Anth said:

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    news:40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.


    com.au...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Dave Wickware" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message
    "]news:[email hidden]...
    > Linus Pauling, PhD A Decade After His Last Interview,
    > His Reputation Continues to Grow

    Actually his reputation so far as his medical theories
    were concerned


    is

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    very shaky.

    Vitamin C has not been shown to be of any great help in
    either treating


    or

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    preventing the common cold.

    Perhaps flawed/miinterpreted studies?

    And if they showed that Vitamin C worked do you think that
    Anth would suspect flawed/misinterpreted studies?? Anth
    has made up his mind about Vitamins. It is pointless to
    convince him otherwise.

    But I respect his right to take as many vitamins as his
    little heart desires.

    Aloha,

    Rich

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance

  8. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Anth" <[email hidden]>
    wrote in message news:y-CdnTW2ivgFIzfdRVn-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    [snip]


    This is scraping the bottom of the barrel for any excuse.
    How long do


    you

    Quoted message said:

    think it takes for cancers to increase by fifty per cent
    in size, for obvious new areas of cancer to appear, for
    substantial worsening of symptoms to occur, or for weight
    loss of 10 per cent or more to develop?

    I've no idea - would you say that the tumour would not
    become inflamed when an immunity response was against it?
    The studies showed _nothing_ about mortality, perhaps if
    they had been well designed in the first place these
    objections would not have been made.

    Quoted message said:

    It takes some weeks, and to pretend that continued
    treatment would turn things around after such clear
    deterioration is contrary to all sense and all other
    experience with useful cancer treatments. It is also
    contrary to Cameron's experience with Vitamin C which
    claimed immediate symptomatic benefits and necrosis of
    tumours on autopsy studies. The only criticism of these
    studies devolves upon the fact that no one


    knew

    Quoted message said:

    then, not even Cameron or Pauling, that blood levels of
    vitamin C are tightly controlled. Intravenous vitamin C
    should have been used to


    produce

    Quoted message said:

    the higher blood levels possible possible via that route.
    This was done initially in all patients by Cameron.. .

    It wasn't Cameron's protocol, so arguing to say that
    Cameron's protocol is flawed is flawed also. Touting this
    study as evidence that vitamin c doesn't have any effect on
    cancer would be flawed also. (Remember the study was 10
    weeks, Cameron continued the protocol through the life of
    the patient)

    Quoted message said:

    Interestingly, Pauling himself (and presumably also
    Cameron) saw only


    "one

    Quoted message said:

    important difference" between the trial and Cameron's Vale
    of Leven study. His only criticism was that some patients
    had received prior chemotherapy whereas only four of
    Cameron's patient's had (see Cameron and Pauling's


    book

    Quoted message said:

    "Vitamin C and Cancer"😉.

    As I recall the Mayo study left Pauling speechless, it was
    published very quickly without his knowledge.

    Quoted message said:

    But a second Mayo clinic trial of patients with colorectal
    cancer who had not received chemotherapy also showed no
    benefit.

    (again could be a protocol problem)

    Quoted message said:

    Paradoxically, and despite this criticism of the Mayo
    studies, Pauling


    made

    Quoted message said:

    a big thing about Hoffer's patients having the same rate
    of usage of chemotherapy by his control patients and
    treated patients, even while claiming survival benefits
    for oral vitamin C (see "Hardin Jones Biostatistical
    analysis of Mortality Data ----", Journal Of


    Orthomolecular

    Quoted message said:

    Medicine 5(3):143-154, 1990).

    Anti-oxidants have been shown in various studies to increase
    the efficacy of traditional treatments such as radiation and
    chemotherapy. Perhaps it was a combination of the treatments
    that extended the life? (ncbi.nlm.nih.goventrez
    /query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_u
    ids=10067654&dopt=Abstract)

    Quoted message said:

    Like all of us, he was a fallible figure. He showed poor
    scientific


    rigour

    Quoted message said:

    in matters he was enthusiastic about , especially when he
    ventured outside his main area of expertise.

    He got 2 Nobel prizes which makes him pretty special - he
    was also human like the rest of us.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    Anth

  9. First comment is unclear for binary old Rich@ By doing what
    they claim is what you done I mean not following the exact
    protocol but claiming that they did your protocol. Anth

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    If the did the exact study and it was well designed then
    yes I would


    believe

    Quoted message said:

    it, as I've told you before. How's about this, you made
    some claims about something, things that you


    had

    Quoted message said:

    witnessed in your own practice, the someone comes along
    does what they


    claim

    Quoted message said:

    that you have and got no results? Wouldn't that [censored] you
    off? Anth

  10. 'The only criticism of these studies devolves upon the fact
    that no one knew then, not even Cameron or Pauling, that
    blood levels of vitamin C are tightly controlled.
    Intravenous vitamin C should have been used to produce the
    higher blood levels possible possible via that route. This
    was done initially in all patients by Cameron..'

    This is very true and one of the flaws in the Mayo studies.
    Cameron used IV ascorbate as well as oral. Anth

  11. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Linus Pauling... From: "Peter Moran"
    [email hidden] Date: 5/18/2004 2:17 PM Pacific Standard
    Time Message-id: <40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

    This falls under the same category as prescription drugs do
    not weaken the immune system.

    Which of course is a lie.

    Peter has the gall to speak of a shaky reputation, when we
    seem his attempt to cover for Dr Wilson.

    Google search The benefits of vitamin C

    Results 1 - 10 of about 496,000 for the benefits of
    vitamin C.

    <snip the despicable attempt to trash both vitamin C and
    Linus Pauling>

    Pathetic.

    Jan

  12. (Jan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Linus Pauling... From: "Peter Moran"
    [email hidden] Date: 5/18/2004 2:17 PM Pacific
    Standard Time Message-id: <40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

    This falls under the same category as prescription drugs do
    not weaken the immune system.

    You mean like Elavil and Neurontin??

    Quoted message said:

    Google search The benefits of vitamin C

    Wonder why Jan does not stop the prescription drugs and
    take Vitamins instead?? Or maybe she has and has not
    told us:-)))))

    Quoted message said:


    Results 1 - 10 of about 496,000 for the benefits of
    vitamin C.

    <snip the despicable attempt to trash both vitamin C and
    Linus Pauling>

    Pathetic.

    You tell em Jan. The nerve of someone to try to move in on
    Jan's territory (trashing people).

    Aloha,

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    Jan

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance

  13. Rich posts very little facts and when he does, he's not very
    good at it. This is one of the reason why he's biased to the
    'cat fight' arguments with very little factual content. Anth

    <Rich.@.> wrote in message news:40b9be7e.171989640@news-
    server.hawaii.rr.com...

    Quoted message said:

    On 19 May 2004 01:54:20 GMT, [email hidden]

    (Jan) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Linus Pauling... From: "Peter Moran"
    [email hidden] Date: 5/18/2004 2:17 PM Pacific
    Standard Time Message-id:

    Quoted message said:

    <40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com


    .au>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    This falls under the same category as prescription drugs
    do not weaken


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    immune system.

    You mean like Elavil and Neurontin??

    Quoted message said:

    Google search The benefits of vitamin C

    Wonder why Jan does not stop the prescription drugs and
    take Vitamins instead?? Or maybe she has and has not told
    us:-)))))

    Quoted message said:


    Results 1 - 10 of about 496,000 for the benefits of
    vitamin C.

    <snip the despicable attempt to trash both vitamin C and
    Linus Pauling>

    Pathetic.

    You tell em Jan. The nerve of someone to try to move in on
    Jan's territory (trashing people).

    Aloha,

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    Jan

  14. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Linus Pauling...
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 5/18/2004 2:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:

    Quoted message said:

    <40aa8b61$0$20564$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
    02.brisbane.pipenetworks.c


    om.au>

    Quoted message said:


    This falls under the same category as prescription drugs do
    not weaken the immune system.

    Which of course is a lie.

    Peter has the gall to speak of a shaky reputation, when we
    seem his attempt to cover for Dr Wilson.

    Google search The benefits of vitamin C

    Results 1 - 10 of about 496,000 for the benefits of
    vitamin C.

    Results 1 - 20 of about 55,200 English messages for
    jan is satan

    Results 1 - 20 of about 24,900 English messages for
    benefits of satan

    Results 1 - 20 of about 640,000 English messages for
    satan is god

    Quoted message said:

    <snip the despicable attempt to trash both vitamin C and
    Linus Pauling>

    Pathetic.

    Jan

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