Lightning - how dangerous for campers?

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:26:08 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| I've read a couple of things recently about the potential dangers of
| camping during lightning storms, and as winter approaches it occurred
| to me to ask how much of a danger this is to people camping out in,
| for instance, the Lake District hills.
|
| My tent will normally be the highest object on the piece of ground
| it's sitting on, although clearly it's going to be surrounded by
| taller mountains unless I'm actually pitched on top of Scafell Pike.

When tenting I used to pitch on the lee side of a hedge/wall/anything.
That would

| How dangerous is it to be in the tent if a lightning storm blows up?
|
| Also, how dangerous is it actually to be caught walking on the hill in
| the middle of a storm?

Lightning is not very dangerous at all.
In the UK 10 people per *day* die on the roads.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldhansrd/vo981106/text/81106w01.htm
Shows that 1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.

I always compare a risk to 10 people per day with 60M people at risk.
More than that I take suitable precautions.
A lot less than that I ignore.

--
Dave F

Dave Fawthrop said:

Lightning is not very dangerous at all.
In the UK 10 people per *day* die on the roads.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldhansrd/vo981106/text
/81106w01.htm

Quoted message said:

Shows that 1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.

I always compare a risk to 10 people per day with 60M people at risk.

Not a fair comparison. How many people in the UK use roads every day?
And how many people in the UK camp on hilltops in lightning storms?
Work out the percentages of deaths for each and then compare.

Perhaps only 2-6 people per year camp on hilltops during thunderstorms.
That would make the odds pretty risky! ;-)

That punk bloke mentioned the other day that more people get killed by
electric toasters than by sharks, but nobody complains about how
dangerous toasters are.
My thoughts on the matter are that if everyone had a shark in their
kitchen the stats would be quite different.

Or to put it another way, if you're out backpacking in a thunderstorm,
don't pitch your tent on top of a hill. The odds of being hit may be
low overall, but that would just be asking for it.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:00:29 +0000, Dave Fawthrop
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

| How dangerous is it to be in the tent if a lightning storm blows up?
|
| Also, how dangerous is it actually to be caught walking on the hill in
| the middle of a storm?

Lightning is not very dangerous at all.

Really? I thought it was often fatal.

Quoted message said:

In the UK 10 people per *day* die on the roads.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldhansrd/vo981106/text/81106w01.htm
Shows that 1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.

Right, but I'm wondering how dangerous it is to those actually caught
in lightning storms in exposed places, which increases the odds a
little. Most people aren't ever in that situation, so quoting the
general statistic doesn't actually help much in an assessment of the
risk.

Thanks anyway!

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:19:09 -0000, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Perhaps only 2-6 people per year camp on hilltops during thunderstorms.

Surely it's many more than that? I'm thinking of people inadvertently
caught out in storms: not those who might deliberately seek them out.

[...]

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:19:09 -0000, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

| Dave Fawthrop wrote:
|
| > Lightning is not very dangerous at all.
| > In the UK 10 people per *day* die on the roads.
| >
| http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldhansrd/vo981106/text
| /81106w01.htm
| > Shows that 1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.
| >
| > I always compare a risk to 10 people per day with 60M people at risk.
|
| Not a fair comparison. How many people in the UK use roads every day?

Completely fair which is why I said "with 60M people at risk"

| And how many people in the UK camp on hilltops in lightning storms?
| Work out the percentages of deaths for each and then compare.

| Perhaps only 2-6 people per year camp on hilltops during thunderstorms.
| That would make the odds pretty risky! ;-)

Probably one every *Decade* or even century. Statistics fall down at low
total numbers.

--
Dave F

Peewiglet said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps only 2-6 people per year camp on hilltops during
thunderstorms.

Surely it's many more than that? I'm thinking of people inadvertently
caught out in storms: not those who might deliberately seek them out.

Just joking. But seriously, how many people ever camp on hilltops
anyway? Most campers don't camp wild, and most wild campers probably
camp next to streams or lakes, or in various sheltered locations. I
think that camping on ridges, hill and mountain tops is relatively rare
(I've only seen it rarely and only done it rarely myself), and how many
people would actually risk it if there were a possibility of a
thunderstorm?

The most likely chance of getting caught out would be on a hot summer's
day, by those who aren't aware of the tendency of thunder to develop
after a few days of high pressure in summer. I once camped wild in such
conditions and the thunder surprised me (I hadn't anticipated it) but
luckily I was camped in a valley at the time.

In fact, out of many wild camping trips over the last 20 years, that's
the only time I've encountered thunder whilst camping, so clearly the
risk of thunder is very low, but if you were caught out on a ridge or
hilltop in a thunderstorm, the risk would obviously be much higher. I
wouldn't worry down in the valley though, just keep away from ridges,
and the base of cliffs, because the current can run down the wet rock to
the base (although that's not the most sensible place to pitch a tent
anyway).

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Dave Fawthrop said:

Quoted message said:

Not a fair comparison. How many people in the UK use roads every
day?

Completely fair which is why I said "with 60M people at risk"

60M people aren't at risk from roads every day, some people never or
rarely go out.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've read a couple of things recently about the potential dangers of
camping during lightning storms, and as winter approaches it occurred
to me to ask how much of a danger this is to people camping out in,
for instance, the Lake District hills.

My tent will normally be the highest object on the piece of ground
it's sitting on, although clearly it's going to be surrounded by
taller mountains unless I'm actually pitched on top of Scafell Pike.

How dangerous is it to be in the tent if a lightning storm blows up?

Also, how dangerous is it actually to be caught walking on the hill in
the middle of a storm?

Many thanks for any help 🙂

Of the two fatalities I've heard about in the UK this year, one was a
hillwalker who got caught in a storm while near the summit of Ben Oss. The
other was cycling across an airfield.

I think the answer is that there is little chance of your tent being struck.
If you find yourself caught in a storm there are tactics to employ to
minimise the risk, although the standard "make your way down the hill" isn't
ideal if you're tucked up in your sleeping bag.

The advice from Mountain Leader Training can be read at:
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/lightning.html

--
Duncan Gray

www.duncolm.co.uk
also The Mountaineering Council of Scotland
www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps only 2-6 people per year camp on hilltops during
thunderstorms.

Surely it's many more than that? I'm thinking of people inadvertently
caught out in storms: not those who might deliberately seek them out.

Just joking.

Whoops, sorry! 🙂 <blush>

Quoted message said:

But seriously, how many people ever camp on hilltops
anyway? Most campers don't camp wild, and most wild campers probably
camp next to streams or lakes, or in various sheltered locations. I
think that camping on ridges, hill and mountain tops is relatively rare
(I've only seen it rarely and only done it rarely myself), and how many
people would actually risk it if there were a possibility of a
thunderstorm?

I see what you mean, and I wasn't thinking of camping right on the
ridge, but in a place like the Lakes it seems to me that almost every
potential campsite that isn't in a valley could be said to be on a
hilltop, albeit often surrounded by many much higher hills. The tops
tend to be the only places with ground flat enough to put up the tent.

The place I camped on Saturday, for instance, was a little grassy
platform just above the Corridor Route on the way up from the valley
floor in Styhead to the highest point, on Scafell Pike. The camp
certainly wasn't on the top of any hill, but on the little grassy
platform my tent was the highest point. That's the sort of situation
I'm wondering about, really.

Quoted message said:

The most likely chance of getting caught out would be on a hot summer's
day, by those who aren't aware of the tendency of thunder to develop
after a few days of high pressure in summer. I once camped wild in such
conditions and the thunder surprised me (I hadn't anticipated it) but
luckily I was camped in a valley at the time.

Good point.

Quoted message said:

In fact, out of many wild camping trips over the last 20 years, that's
the only time I've encountered thunder whilst camping, so clearly the
risk of thunder is very low, but if you were caught out on a ridge or
hilltop in a thunderstorm, the risk would obviously be much higher. I
wouldn't worry down in the valley though, just keep away from ridges,
and the base of cliffs, because the current can run down the wet rock to
the base (although that's not the most sensible place to pitch a tent
anyway).

Many thanks for that 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:14:53 -0000, "Duncan Gray"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Of the two fatalities I've heard about in the UK this year, one was a
hillwalker who got caught in a storm while near the summit of Ben Oss. The
other was cycling across an airfield.

I think the answer is that there is little chance of your tent being struck.
If you find yourself caught in a storm there are tactics to employ to
minimise the risk, although the standard "make your way down the hill" isn't
ideal if you're tucked up in your sleeping bag.

The advice from Mountain Leader Training can be read at:
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/safety/lightning.html

Many thanks - I'll go and read it now 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've read a couple of things recently about the potential dangers of
camping during lightning storms, and as winter approaches it occurred
to me to ask how much of a danger this is to people camping out in,
for instance, the Lake District hills.

My tent will normally be the highest object on the piece of ground
it's sitting on, although clearly it's going to be surrounded by
taller mountains unless I'm actually pitched on top of Scafell Pike.

How dangerous is it to be in the tent if a lightning storm blows up?

Also, how dangerous is it actually to be caught walking on the hill in
the middle of a storm?

Many thanks for any help 🙂

Early October I took my flat mate for her first ever wild camp (combined
with her first hike since DofE 4 years earlier ;o). We set off from Langdale
at around 1100 and walked down Micklewhatsit(?) ghyll. It was pretty windy
once on top of Rossett but nothing extreme, she got blown over a couple of
times as we climbed above Angle tarn heading towards Sprinkling tarn but she
was in only minor pain after each fall so I just pointed and took pictures.
Anyway, to cut what I could make a long story short, we didn't try Scafell
pike since she was completely knackered and on the verge of collapse (I
stupidly assumed that I wasn't all that fit and anybody could keep up with
me - which I'm not, but they can't).
We pitched the tent around 1530, made a brew, then some food and drank a
bottle of wine (I like to keep it lightweight ;o).....
Later that night, I'm just drifting off to sleep when the tent lit up with a
bright white flash. I thought it was some crazy latenight walkers' head
torce at first until CRACK-RUMBLE. Then I thought, "oh [censored], I'm high in the
fells in a tent with an external metal frame in a lightning storm, I'm
dead."
I decided we should go down, but upon looking outside with my Silva 4 led
headtorch, I realised that there was no way I could get down with the amount
of light that was throwing out, so we'd have to stay there. By now, my flat
mate was having a full panic attack, which I wisely tried to calm down by
saying "don't worry, if we do get hit, it'll be instant and painless", she
continued with the panic attack for another 15 minutes until the storm
ended.
Ah, I fell asleep.
CRACK-RUMBLE! Look at watch, 3 in the morning and it's started again.
Bollocks! Oh sod it, there's nothing I can do, back to sleep.

I'm still not sure whether it's THAT dangerous but now I know it's very
uncomforting. I certainly wont be hanging around in a storm again... Halogen
lights for me. Mind you, I wouldn't fancy taking my tent to bits in a storm.

So, the only advise I can offer is, if all else fails, sod it and back to
sleep.

Nathan

Treefrog said:

Then I thought, "oh
[censored], I'm high in the fells in a tent

But were you actually on top of a ridge or on a hilltop?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

DF said:

1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.

.... but I think the point is that Peewiglet doesn't want to be those 1-3
people.

Cheers

Blippie
--
Ten minutes of this rain will do more good in half an hour than a fortnight
of ordinary rain in a month.

Quoted message said:

By now, my flat
mate was having a full panic attack, which I wisely tried to calm down by
saying "don't worry, if we do get hit, it'll be instant and painless",

.... you have a wonderful bedside manner!

Quoted message said:

Mind you, I wouldn't fancy taking my tent to bits in a storm.

.... could always leave a note in your tent describing your intentions, bolt
for cover and return for it the next day?

The return trip up Mickledore would be penance?

Cheers

Blippie
--
Ten minutes of this rain will do more good in half an hour than a fortnight
of ordinary rain in a month.

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Treefrog said:

Then I thought, "oh
[censored], I'm high in the fells in a tent

But were you actually on top of a ridge or on a hilltop?

No, I was next to Sprinkling tarn, under a big wall of rock. I knew that
would give us some protection but I wasn't sure given the (apparent) random
nature of lightning.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:18:32 -0000, "Blippie"

alt.aviation.roswell.wannabe.wannabe.wannabe said:

DF said:

1 to 3 people per *Year* in the UK die due to lightning.

... but I think the point is that Peewiglet doesn't want to be those 1-3
people.

Got it in one! :-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Treefrog said:

Quoted message said:

But were you actually on top of a ridge or on a hilltop?

No, I was next to Sprinkling tarn, under a big wall of rock. I knew
that would give us some protection

Depends, how close were you to the base of the cliff? It can be
dangerous to be too close.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:07:00 -0000, "Treefrog"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Later that night, I'm just drifting off to sleep when the tent lit up with a
bright white flash. I thought it was some crazy latenight walkers' head
torce at first until CRACK-RUMBLE. Then I thought, "oh [censored], I'm high in the
fells in a tent with an external metal frame in a lightning storm, I'm
dead."
I decided we should go down, but upon looking outside with my Silva 4 led
headtorch, I realised that there was no way I could get down with the amount
of light that was throwing out, so we'd have to stay there. By now, my flat
mate was having a full panic attack, which I wisely tried to calm down by
saying "don't worry, if we do get hit, it'll be instant and painless", she
continued with the panic attack for another 15 minutes until the storm
ended.
Ah, I fell asleep.
CRACK-RUMBLE! Look at watch, 3 in the morning and it's started again.
Bollocks! Oh sod it, there's nothing I can do, back to sleep.

I'm still not sure whether it's THAT dangerous but now I know it's very
uncomforting. I certainly wont be hanging around in a storm again... Halogen
lights for me. Mind you, I wouldn't fancy taking my tent to bits in a storm.

[...]

Eek! It sounds terrifying! :-)

Where were you camping?

(I'm glad you weren't killed, by the way...)

p.s. does your flat mate still speak to you??

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:29:36 -0000, "Treefrog"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

No, I was next to Sprinkling tarn, under a big wall of rock. I knew that
would give us some protection but I wasn't sure given the (apparent) random
nature of lightning.

Eek, eek!!! Great End?

How exciting! I was at Sprinkling Tarn just 2 weeks ago camping, and
also about 3 weeks before that. Thank goodness there was no lightning
on either occasion...

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \