lighting issues

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

My thanks.

In an urban area?

Roads are well lit enough that you can ride without a light. The point
of lights on a bicycle in an urban area is not to see, but to be seen.
No bicycle lights are brighter than high-pressure sodium street lamps.

I've been running with a Cateye 5 LED for a couple of years now. It's
effective enough. I keep it pointed straight ahead rather than at the
pavement - hopefully to get the attention of drivers.

HID? Too 'spensive.

For a taillight, I've been using a VistaLight Super Nebula 5 after the
lense off my Cateye blinky was lost somewhere on Interstate 195 off the
back of a car.

http://www.vistalite.com/vistalite_03/03flashers.html

It takes normal AA batteries and they last forever, it seems. My Cateye
blinky took N cells. That was a mistake. No matter how good a light
seems, I'll never use anything that takes batteries that you can't
either recharge or get cheap. I liked the Cateye, as it looked like a
standard reflector rather than a light and therefore didn't have the
theft hazard that a larger "Hey, I'm a light" type has. But what I
would have lost in stolen lights, I could have saved in batteries
several times over.

--
BMO

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

I've ridden Halogen lights in the 12-15W (low beam) 25-30W (high/both
beams) range for many years, and they seem to be quite visible to
motorists, and do an adequate job lighting up the road.

I recently bought the wife a HID light - no comparison. If and when I
ever wear out my "mere halogen" lights, I'm gonna get a new HID light
for myownself! It would be overkill for a lot of people, but if you
do 100+ dark rides a year the cost/ride becomes very reasonable.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

"Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive one's
auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

My thanks.

There are a few 3 watt headlights with carefully focussed beams that aim the
light exactly where it is needed for a road cyclist. These are excellent for
on pavement cycling but the relatively narrow beam is not nearly as useful
for off road cycling. These lights are usually powered by a generator/dynamo
of some kind, either built into the front hub or driven by the tire.

HID is nice, but not everyone wants to deal with the battery charging issues
that come with them.
--
mark

Dear Mr/Ms den Telegraph Poles:
One light tactic I've evolved is multiples. I use a HL-300, a
double-AAA cell green LED blinker and a mini-maglite (double AA) model
retrofitted with a Nite Ize LED "bulb" and a green traffic direction
cone up front.
Back is a red LED blinker and a mini-maglite retrofitted with LED
bulb and a red traffic direction cone. They're adequate as get noticed
lights, the HL-300 does an OK job of short-range pothole-spotting.
However, during a spout of temporary rage at the reigning transit
authority I cycled Mission Gorge Road at night and realized it was OK
with those lights only because I had a half moon showing. With a
crescent or new moon, I'd have had to take the downhills a lot slower.
If I was night-riding every night, and if I could get decent bike
locker space everywhere, I would consider a hub generator system. Lot
of brevet/audax and long slow distance cyclists like them, but they do
more rural riding.
On the other hand, being as bright as a motorcycle may be a good
thing, but according to a motorcyclist who exchanged pleasantries with
me while we waited for a left turn, the "cagers" don't see him if they
don't want to either, and on that cruiser he rides he'd do a lot more
than scratch the paint job....

Robert Leone [email hidden]

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

Cost.

And the immense wattage. All that electrical energy has to come from
somewhere -- either making you go slower through a generator or you have
to carry it in the form of a heavy battery pack, slowing you down. Are HID
even all that efficient in wattages under a few hundred?

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

Quoted message said:

Cost.

Well, the person you responded to did qualify it "Cost aside" right up
front. And besides, a good generator system (e.g. the SON hub with a
new wheel) can have a high upfront cost as well, but very low
maintenance cost.

Quoted message said:

And the immense wattage.

The typical HID bike light is rated to consume 10 to 13.5 watts. I
suppose that's immense compared to a typical 2.4 watt halogen generator
light. But not so immense compared to the typical 10 to 20 watt halogen
battery light.

Quoted message said:

All that electrical energy has to come from
somewhere -- either making you go slower through a generator or you have
to carry it in the form of a heavy battery pack, slowing you down.

The claimed weight of Light & Motion's Li-ion battery pack for their HID
light is 300g for ~3 hours of burn time.

The Topeak Moonshine HID system is lighter still (370g for the whole
system), consumes less wattage (7 to 10w) and has a smaller battery (and
shorter run time, ~2 hours).

The SON dynohub is 610g without a skewer. Subtract the weight of a
conventional front hub, e.g. a Shimano XT that is 160g, for about 450g
of "extra" weight in addition to the resistance (albeit minimal for the
SON) of the generator load.

Quoted message said:

Are HID even all that efficient in wattages under a few hundred?

Compared to what? What matters to someone shopping the alternatives for
bike lights is that it outputs enough (or more) light for the duration
needed (or more) with a low enough (or less) total weight for an
affordable price (however you calculate that).

For those of us looking to buy a new lighting solution, and I'm
definitely in the market, needing something to install on my Bacchetta
Strada recumbent with 571mm (aka 650c) wheels, I'm open to getting a new
wheel built on a SON hub (probably building a 559mm wheel to get fatter
tires, killing two birds with one stone), or using a battery light as I
have been doing with my other bikes/trikes for years now.

I know that a couple of 10W halogens (e.g. a 10W helmet light and a 10W
handlebar light, both with narrow spot beams) is good enough for me on
the routes I travel in the dark. I don't know if a SON + a 2.4W Bisy or
E6 or Lumotec or whatever is good enough.

Unless there happens to be someone in my area with that setup who'll
lend me their bike (or at least their front wheel and headlight) for one
of my night commutes, I kinda doubt that I'll spend $400 (new wheel +
headlight) to find out.

I've seen beam shots of the best generator lights compared to various
battery lights (including HIDs). The generator lights do seem good
enough, but those tests never seem to show what it looks like when
you're on an unlit road with cars coming the other direction with their
headlights on. That's the big test for me.

If a light system is good enough only on lit streets or only on dark
streets with no oncoming traffic, it's not good enough for me.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?

Hmm. "Best amount of light?" If you mean "Most light," then the HID
units will win. But there's more to it than that. Putting out lots of
waste light - the kind that sails up into the overhanging trees -
doesn't do much good.

Quoted message said:

I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.

My night riding is with generator sets, almost always three watts.
They work largely because the lumens go where they need to go. IOW,
the light is focused mostly on the road; a reasonable amount of light
goes toward the drivers' eyes.

The beam is, admittedly, too narrow for single track mountain biking at
night. But I don't do that.

Quoted message said:

Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

"Cost aside?" Cost is absolutely a factor. Another factor is the
potential blinding of oncoming traffic, especially cyclists on narrow
paths or roads. A third factor is having to tend the rechargeable
battery, plus replace it every few years. A fourth factor might be
bulb life, especially given that they're expensive and not easy to
find. And personally, I'd tend to shy away from something that
requires such complicated electronics on a bike. (I've been that way
ever since the fancy capacitor discharge ignition system on one of my
motorcycles spewed smoke and sparks in a thunderstorm.)

A few folks have pointed out another potential problem: A super-bright
light focused in a fairly tight beam, they claim, hampers your night
vision. You end up seeing what's in the beam, but nothing much outside
it.

A final point: I believe there is such a thing as overkill. Even if
we develop the technology to have atomic powered bike headlights as
bright as aircraft landing lights, I don't think they're needed.
Simpler technology works well.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoting <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

"Cost aside?" Cost is absolutely a factor. Another factor is the

.... and the one you missed this time is run time. After a few hours on the
road dynamo systems provide more light than fancy HID setups. :-)
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Gorgonzoladay, September - a weekend.

Even if cost is not a consideration, fluorescents are interesting. They provide
much more light than incandescents drawing the same amount of power from
batteries or a generator, and a much bigger light too. I haven't seen any
battery powered flourescents designed for a bicycle, there are many 4 - 12 watt
battery operated systems which work well off a few NiMH AA cells battery
available in department stores, either in the camping supplies or home lighting
sections.

Of course, flourescent lights are not focused, so the light does not show the
path ahead so well. But conversely, they are very visible at great distances
from a 180 degree aspect, something to ponder upon when approaching an
intersection at 15 mph, as motorists approach from the cross street.

LEDs are even more energy efficient, but again, bicycle aftermarket
manufacturing is way behind. A 20 piece white high intensity LED light system
operating off 3 AA NiMH cells for 8 hours continuous use is feasible. With 20
LEDs, some degree of dispersion is also feasible, to cover 180 degrees
horizontally.

Neither LEDs or flourescents will provide the long distance illumination of
various halogen or HID lights, true. In a situation involving 40 mph descents,
the HID or halogen gives you a chance to see road hazards before you eat them.

LEDs or flourescents can provide light visible at a great distance from 180
degrees which may alert motorists that something is out there moving at night.
A well focused incandescent doesn't do this at all.

You make your choice, spend your money, and take your chances.

A 3 watt halogen incandescent is generally enough for a bicyclist, who rarely
exceeds 20 mph. Most autos today can go well over a hundred mph for an hour or
so. On my bicycle I hardly ever go over 35 mph, but my computer says I hit 49
mph this morning on the way home from work. But that was for a very small part
of a ride which averaged 10.1 mph over 16 miles. I work nights, security, and
have done a bunch of night riding. A low end incandescent system, even halogen,
is just not enough to find road hazards like rocks in the streets ahead. The
rider must keep their eyes focused on the area lit up by the beam, which means
they are not well aware of the cross street intersections, too. The focused
lights are not very visible beyond the 5 - 15 angle of their beam, so might not
be visible to motorists approaching intersections on cross streets in less than
fortuitous circumstances.

The question you pose is interesting, but I suggest that if a rider is prepared
to put out a few hundred bucks for a state of the art HID system, why not spend
fifty more, get a few LED blinkers so often seen on the rear of bicycles, fit
them with white LEDS instead, mount them on the front tube of the machine, and
let the world see where you are and going?

"Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

My thanks.

Ahn Don den Telegraph Poles said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

My thanks.

LBS where I used to live has placed online images of 16 light's
patterns. maybe of interest...
http://eddys.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=493

Dale Benjamin said:

Even if cost is not a consideration, fluorescents are interesting.
They provide much more light than incandescents drawing the same
amount of power from batteries or a generator, and a much bigger
light too. I haven't seen any battery powered flourescents designed
for a bicycle, there are many 4 - 12 watt battery operated systems
which work well off a few NiMH AA cells battery available in
department stores, either in the camping supplies or home lighting
sections.

Of course, flourescent lights are not focused, so the light does not
show the path ahead so well. But conversely, they are very visible
at great distances from a 180 degree aspect, something to ponder upon
when approaching an intersection at 15 mph, as motorists approach
from the cross street.

Focusing fluorescents would be a great innovation, as their efficiency is
much higher than LEDs at higher wattages (5W+).

Quoted message said:

LEDs are even more energy efficient, but again, bicycle aftermarket
manufacturing is way behind. A 20 piece white high intensity LED
light system operating off 3 AA NiMH cells for 8 hours continuous use
is feasible. With 20 LEDs, some degree of dispersion is also
feasible, to cover 180 degrees horizontally.

That's the key - higher number of elements in the array, not higher
wattages. Cooling becomes a concern for high-wattage LEDs.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Dale Benjamin said:

Even if cost is not a consideration, fluorescents are interesting. They provide
much more light than incandescents drawing the same amount of power from
batteries or a generator, and a much bigger light too. I haven't seen any
battery powered flourescents designed for a bicycle, there are many 4 - 12 watt
battery operated systems which work well off a few NiMH AA cells battery
available in department stores, either in the camping supplies or home lighting
sections.

I bought one of those once for camping use, mostly intending it for
reading in the tent before going to sleep. I know flourescents are
supposed to be much more efficient than incandescents, but I was
disappointed in the short battery life. The four AAs seemed to last no
longer than they would in an incandescent light.

I wonder if the efficiency gain is less with the small flourescent
tubes. Also, it's my understanding that flourescents need high voltage
to start the flow of electrons. I wonder if the electronic circuitry
used to generate that high voltage is inefficient, canceling much of
the flourescent tube's gains (at least, in the model I tried).

In any case, I'm not very excited about flourescents for bike lights.
I don't think they're workable.

Quoted message said:

Of course, flourescent lights are not focused, so the light does not show the
path ahead so well. But conversely, they are very visible at great distances
from a 180 degree aspect, something to ponder upon when approaching an
intersection at 15 mph, as motorists approach from the cross street.

Not a problem. See below.

Quoted message said:

With 20
LEDs, some degree of dispersion is also feasible, to cover 180 degrees
horizontally.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

Neither LEDs or flourescents will provide the long distance illumination of
various halogen or HID lights, true. In a situation involving 40 mph descents,
the HID or halogen gives you a chance to see road hazards before you eat them.

This may be so, but I think 40 mph downhills at night are far from the
experience of most night cyclists!

Quoted message said:

I work nights, security, and
have done a bunch of night riding. A low end incandescent system, even halogen,
is just not enough to find road hazards like rocks in the streets ahead. The
rider must keep their eyes focused on the area lit up by the beam, which means
they are not well aware of the cross street intersections, too.

It may depend on your lamp. Most halogen lamps sold for bike lighting
just spray the light out there, rather haphazardly. Better optics are
available.

Quoted message said:

The focused
lights are not very visible beyond the 5 - 15 angle of their beam, so might not
be visible to motorists approaching intersections on cross streets in less than
fortuitous circumstances.

This relates to your "intersection at 15 mph" paragraph above, and to
the "180 degrees" remark soon after:

In my experience, you're fussing over a non-problem. I've never seen a
"focused" headlight that wasn't sufficiently visible to cross-street
motorists. In fact, I've noted that motorists are frequently _too_
careful as I'm approaching at night. I've had many wait endlessly
until I pass their stop sign, then have to pass me a short distance
later. If they'd gone out ahead of me, it would have been easier on us
all.

If you use a headlight with a narrow beam, you can shake your
handlebars side-to-side a bit as you approach. The flash should wake
any dozing motorist. But I seldom bother. My experience on the road,
and my experience trading bikes with other cyclists in night-riding
workshops, has shown me that standard bike headlights are quite visible
under all normal conditions. I add a little near-weightless reflective
tape and reflectors, and I've had no problem in dozens of years.

- Frank Krygowski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dale Benjamin said:

Even if cost is not a consideration, fluorescents are interesting. They

provide

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much more light than incandescents drawing the same amount of power from
batteries or a generator, and a much bigger light too. I haven't seen any
battery powered flourescents designed for a bicycle, there are many 4 - 12

watt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

battery operated systems which work well off a few NiMH AA cells battery
available in department stores, either in the camping supplies or home

lighting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sections.

I bought one of those once for camping use, mostly intending it for
reading in the tent before going to sleep. I know flourescents are
supposed to be much more efficient than incandescents, but I was
disappointed in the short battery life. The four AAs seemed to last no
longer than they would in an incandescent light.

An LED is the way to go for reading at camp. I have one that has a headstrap,
and 2 LEDs.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if the efficiency gain is less with the small flourescent
tubes. Also, it's my understanding that flourescents need high voltage
to start the flow of electrons. I wonder if the electronic circuitry
used to generate that high voltage is inefficient, canceling much of
the flourescent tube's gains (at least, in the model I tried).

In any case, I'm not very excited about flourescents for bike lights.
I don't think they're workable.

Mounting the darn things is a chore, small bungee cords work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, flourescent lights are not focused, so the light does not show

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

path ahead so well. But conversely, they are very visible at great

distances

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from a 180 degree aspect, something to ponder upon when approaching an
intersection at 15 mph, as motorists approach from the cross street.

Not a problem. See below.

Quoted message said:

With 20
LEDs, some degree of dispersion is also feasible, to cover 180 degrees
horizontally.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

Neither LEDs or flourescents will provide the long distance illumination of
various halogen or HID lights, true. In a situation involving 40 mph

descents,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the HID or halogen gives you a chance to see road hazards before you eat

them.

Quoted message said:

This may be so, but I think 40 mph downhills at night are far from the
experience of most night cyclists!

Quoted message said:

I work nights, security, and
have done a bunch of night riding. A low end incandescent system, even

halogen,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is just not enough to find road hazards like rocks in the streets ahead.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rider must keep their eyes focused on the area lit up by the beam, which

means

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they are not well aware of the cross street intersections, too.

It may depend on your lamp. Most halogen lamps sold for bike lighting
just spray the light out there, rather haphazardly. Better optics are
available.

Quoted message said:

The focused
lights are not very visible beyond the 5 - 15 angle of their beam, so might

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be visible to motorists approaching intersections on cross streets in less

than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fortuitous circumstances.

This relates to your "intersection at 15 mph" paragraph above, and to
the "180 degrees" remark soon after:

In my experience, you're fussing over a non-problem. I've never seen a
"focused" headlight that wasn't sufficiently visible to cross-street
motorists. In fact, I've noted that motorists are frequently _too_
careful as I'm approaching at night. I've had many wait endlessly
until I pass their stop sign, then have to pass me a short distance
later. If they'd gone out ahead of me, it would have been easier on us
all.

If you use a headlight with a narrow beam, you can shake your
handlebars side-to-side a bit as you approach. The flash should wake
any dozing motorist. But I seldom bother. My experience on the road,
and my experience trading bikes with other cyclists in night-riding
workshops, has shown me that standard bike headlights are quite visible
under all normal conditions. I add a little near-weightless reflective
tape and reflectors, and I've had no problem in dozens of years.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

The current fervor over LED's notwithstanding, what gives one the best
amount of light for riding at road speeds in an urban area at night?
I've heard it claimed that 3-6 watts is adequate for some; I can hardly
imagine how, given for example the ease with which one can overdrive
one's auto headlights.
Cost aside, why not HID and the considerable amount of candlepower they
offer?

I guess it depends on what you want a light to do...

Urban areas are generally pretty well lit at night, so the main
function of a headlight on a bike is to make sure that people driving
cars notice you. That's especially important at intersections where
most accidents occur.

I find the best way to ensure that a driver sees me is to put a lot of
relective tape on the bike and my helmet, and use a helmet mounted
lamp so that when I am in an intersection I can momentarily shine the
light in their face. Then I am absolutely sure they know I am there.
It is like making eye-contact with them during the day. I would not
want to do that with an HID lamp- they would probably not be very
happy. LEDs are fine.

In an urban environment bike accessories, especially expensive HID
headlamps, are likely to be stolen. That means you will have to take
the light, battery and wiring with you each and every time you lock
the bike up, even for just a couple minutes, then you have to put it
all back when you get back on the bike. That can be a pain with an
HID light system because the lamp and battery are not a single unit.
A helmet mounted lamp goes with you without even thinking about it.

A helmet mounted lamp is useful when you have to make repairs or
lock/unlock a bike at night. While you are riding, you can see where
you are turning before you turn.

Most LED lamps offer pretty long battery life, and use standard
batteries (you can put in rechargeables if you want) available
anywhere. If you forget to charge your high power light (HID, halogen
or other), you're going to be riding in the dark. If a LED lamp's
batteries go dead, you can pick up some fresh ones almost anywhere.

If your HID lamp's bulb burns out, you're going to have to pay a
fortune for a replacement, and order it and wait for it to arrive.
They have short liftimes- maybe a couple thousand hours, max.
LEDs don't burn out.

HIDs have warm-up time, and don't like to be turned on/off frequently.
I don't know if they are fragile or not, but they are certainly more
fragile than LEDs.

There are lots of reasons to like and dislike different types of
lights. I find LEDs offer the best mix of reliability, portability,
visibility, battery life, and up front and operating costs.