Lighting (again) What to do?

Lab BT <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider to be
: the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I am not
: interested in the rim driven devices.

For what? It's horses for courses.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

Lab BT said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider to be
the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I am not
interested in the rim driven devices.

Depends what you want to do...

Personally I'm a big fan of hub dynamos and they're my first choice, but
there are salient points:

- initial high capital expenditure, especially as you need a new wheel
as well as the basic unit

- not really enough light for Serious Speed in unlit areas (though of
course they can be supplemented with additional lights, and if you're
not in a hurry you can always slow down a bit on big hills, works for me)

- lights become a permanent feature of the bike, often a poor choice for
serious sporting machinery, or could be a problem in some areas with
vandalism or canny thieves with spanners (hasn't been a problem for me
as yet)

But if those aren't problems for you then dynohubs Are Great. We have
three SONs and a Shimano Ultegra between us. The Shimano is very good
indeed, the SONs are arguably better but also more expensive, and
there's no obvious Gotcha with the Ultegra in its 6 months on Roos' hack
bike so far.

We both had rechargeable battery twin headlamp sets before, and Roos'
have been relegated to the Just In Case bin and mine have been on long
term loan to a pal for a couple of years. I haven't missed them, though
there was nothing inherently bad about them. It's just so much easier
to know that the lights are there whenever you need them, and there's no
faffing charging batteries or taking lights on and off the bike.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Lab BT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider to be
the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I am not
interested in the rim driven devices.

What do you want to do with the bike? How much do you want to spend? How
good are you at remembering to keep batteries charged?

eg Aggressive night MTBing, with a high budget - something damn bright,
which means a battery setup, probably Li-ion based for least weight.

Utility riding/touring - hub dynamo wins IMO, mostly because it's always
there and you don't have to worry about it. Schmidt if you've got the money,
or Shimano is pretty much as good.

cheers,
clive

Lab BT said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider to be
the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I am not
interested in the rim driven devices.

On a general level I'd go for hub dynamo (Shimano is good, SON is even
better, but more money).

However, you haven't said what the bike is to be used for. The above
assumes you're using it on road/possible tow paths. I wouldn't have
thought a dynamo driven system is suitable for bombing down gnarly
single track, or whatever it is these rough MTB types do.

Tim

get a hub dynamo on it when you order it, not after, unless you want to
take it off for the summer to get rid of the last vestige of drag.That
is the best set up for road use.
As a simple marker light in town on a bike you intend to chain and
leave for hours just get a good led you can remove quickly.
Hub dynamos are so good now I think rechargeable battery packs are only
of interest to off roaders. They don't burn brightly for long, and then
you have to decide what to do when its out.That must be why there are
some going very cheap in the press.

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider to be
the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I am not
interested in the rim driven devices.

Depends what you want to do...

Troo

Quoted message said:

Personally I'm a big fan of hub dynamos and they're my first choice, but
there are salient points:

[snip SON-o-BLEAN]

What Danny said, but with the following addition: the SON can be wired
in a 12V setup which is adequate for my speeds of riding in full
darkness (my speeds being up to about 30mph in the dark, somewhat
slower than in daylight).

I don't think the Shimano Nexus can do that.

The always-on-the-bike functionality is perfect for commuting and
utility bikes, no worrying if you get held up at your destination
(unless you have gone to Camden with your Brompton and no front light
fitted yet because you haven't got round to it, but we'll draw a
tactful veil over that shall we?).

Bikes left outside can be vulnerable to theft, but are also less
likely to be sporty or nice; here a basic hub or bottle dynamo with a
retro-look rusty chromed headlight is unattractive to thieves, and
with the addition of a halogen lamp actually works surprisingly well.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

you know? said:

What Danny said,

Ahem. Danny in the sense of Pete, obv.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:04:37 +0100, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Personally I'm a big fan of hub dynamos and they're my first choice, but
there are salient points:

Quoted message said:

[snip SON-o-BLEAN]

What Danny said

What /did/ Danny say? ;-)

, but with the following addition: the SON can be wired

Quoted message said:

in a 12V setup which is adequate for my speeds of riding in full
darkness (my speeds being up to about 30mph in the dark, somewhat
slower than in daylight).

I don't think the Shimano Nexus can do that.

Note that the Nexus is Old News now, and Shimano have replaced it with a
couple of improved models, the Ultegra and XT. I don't know if they can
be wired as above, but anyone flogging you a Nexus new and not telling
you about the improved units and/or giving you an old stock discount is
being A Bit Naughty, I'd say...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What Danny said, but with the following addition: the SON can be wired
in a 12V setup which is adequate for my speeds of riding in full
darkness (my speeds being up to about 30mph in the dark, somewhat
slower than in daylight).

I don't think the Shimano Nexus can do that.

Not with the supplied switch. But I think it can probably do it if wired in
the same way as the SON. I used to run mine at about 8v all the time.

cheers,
clive

[email hidden] wrote:
: Hub dynamos are so good now I think rechargeable battery packs are only
: of interest to off roaders. They don't burn brightly for long, and then
: you have to decide what to do when its out.That must be why there are
: some going very cheap in the press.

I disagree. I run a hub dynamo for town use, and it's good for that.

When I want to do long commutes home in winter, I want at least 12W,
and I want it on a bike that can have the lights easily removed for
use at the weekend.

As ever, nothing works for every purpose.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

Quoted message said:

Hub dynamos are so good now I think rechargeable battery packs are
only of interest to off roaders. They don't burn brightly for long,
and then you have to decide what to do when its out.

The more powerful rechargeable systems can burn all night long. They can
also be brighter and lighter than dymano systems, which makes them very
much of interest to fast road riders as well as off-roaders.

~PB

In article said:

Just zis Guy said:

I don't think the Shimano Nexus can do that.

Note that the Nexus is Old News now, and Shimano have replaced it with a
couple of improved models, the Ultegra and XT.

And those in turn have been improved:
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/
extremely_light_rotation.html

Though I haven't seen a UK web page advertizing them yet. Sheldon has a page
saying the DH-3N71 is the disk mount version of the DH-3N70, but the photo
he has doesn't look obviously disk mounty, and the Shimano page says the
DH-3D71 is the disk version.

cf. http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/shimano_hubs.shtml which has the
DH-3N70 and DH-3D70 described as Ultegra and XT. (The Shimano page
describes the new (71) ones as having Ultegra quality bearings too;
presumably the reduced drag is from changes to the dynamo part.)

Wiggle has the 3N70, but also has the cheaper less efficient NX22 and NX32,
so the Ultegra and XT aren't necessarily replacing the lower efficiency
ones.

(Hmm - http://www.radsport-lenzen.de/assets/s2dmain.html?
http://www.radsport-lenzen.de/gruppen/naben/shimanodh3n71sportnabendynamo.html
appears to say the 3N71 is 70% better than the HB-NX21 / NX31, Kinetics
says the 3N70 is 70% better than something unspecified, and the Shimano page
says the 3N71 is 40% better than the 3N70 when turned on, 75% better than
the 3N70 when turned off. I'm curious to know how those numbers are measured
and/or supposed to be interpreted.)

Pete Biggs <p@honeydewbiggs{remove_melon}.tc> wrote:

: The more powerful rechargeable systems can burn all night long. They can
: also be brighter and lighter than dymano systems, which makes them very
: much of interest to fast road riders as well as off-roaders.

That's why I use Lumicycles over the hub dynamo for longer, faster rides

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

Alan Braggins said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note that the Nexus is Old News now, and Shimano have replaced it with a
couple of improved models, the Ultegra and XT.

And those in turn have been improved:
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/
extremely_light_rotation.html

Though I haven't seen a UK web page advertizing them yet. Sheldon has a page
saying the DH-3N71 is the disk mount version of the DH-3N70, but the photo
he has doesn't look obviously disk mounty, and the Shimano page says the
DH-3D71 is the disk version.

Yup, Sheldon has made one of his rare mistakes there. The "real" 3N71
is now out for OEMs but not as a retail unit. ISTR that Ben Cooper has
had them on Koga Miyata bikes.

in message <[email hidden]>, Lab BT

(') said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider
to be the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I
am not interested in the rim driven devices.

Lead acid is definitely out. Much too heavy, much too little energy
density. Some of the nickel metal hydride and lithium ion battery
systems are reasonable, if you need high power lighting for reasonably
short periods; particularly if coupled to the new high-power LEDs (but
these are not at all cheap). If you intend to do extensive rides in the
hours of darkness, a hub dynamo is still very much the best choice.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Wise man with foot in mouth use opportunity to clean toes.
;; the Worlock

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Lab BT said:

I shall be ordering my new bike tonight, what does the panel consider
to be the best available lighting set up? Hub dynamo v. lead acid? I
am not interested in the rim driven devices.

Depends what you want to do...

Personally I'm a big fan of hub dynamos and they're my first choice,
but there are salient points:

- initial high capital expenditure, especially as you need a new wheel
as well as the basic unit

A Shimano hub dynamo in a new hand built wheel is not as expensive as a
fairly basic Lumicycle type rig, though; any decent lighting system is
expensive.

Quoted message said:

- not really enough light for Serious Speed in unlit areas (though of
course they can be supplemented with additional lights, and if you're
not in a hurry you can always slow down a bit on big hills, works for
me)

In the old days when we had no choice, I used to do a lot off fast night
riding with a dynamo light. It's not wonderful but it's adequate. On
Sunday morning I rode from 2am until 6.30am. I started using the 20
watt flood on my Lumicycles, and the light was great, but I was
worrying about the battery lasting and so before 4am I had it switched
off except for fast downhills.

Quoted message said:

- lights become a permanent feature of the bike, often a poor choice
for serious sporting machinery, or could be a problem in some areas
with vandalism or canny thieves with spanners (hasn't been a problem
for me as yet)

I can't help feeling that except to the very knowledgeable thief, a hub
dynamo is likely to make the bike /less/ desirable. I still think a hub
dynamo is the best solution for regular on-road night riding.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
;; life a tiny bit.

Simon Brooke said:

A Shimano hub dynamo in a new hand built wheel is not as expensive as a
fairly basic Lumicycle type rig, though; any decent lighting system is
expensive.

For different values of "decent", of course. Lumicycles I'd say as
rather better, something like Smart 201s are "decent" and I got mine for
~£30. Roos' Chrimbo present was an Ultegra in a handbuilt wheel with an
Oval Senso Plus and it came to just over £100, which takes us from the
realm of Visa Accident to Seriously Considered Purchase.

Quoted message said:

I can't help feeling that except to the very knowledgeable thief, a hub
dynamo is likely to make the bike /less/ desirable.

The bike as a whole, probably yes: I was thinking more of the individual
lamp units being vulnerable to undoing or just being vandalised, though
again the case that that's never happened to mine.

Quoted message said:

I still think a hub
dynamo is the best solution for regular on-road night riding.

Agreed, which is why I have a couple, and would have 3 if the 8 Freight
would take one (it runs a B&M bottle). However, worth pointing out the
Gotchas.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just zis Guy said:

but with the following addition: the SON can be wired
in a 12V setup which is adequate for my speeds of riding in full
darkness (my speeds being up to about 30mph in the dark, somewhat
slower than in daylight).

Anyone know if this is possible with a Lightspin?

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Give the anarchist a cigarette.

In article 42b72f92.0@entanet said:

Alan Braggins said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note that the Nexus is Old News now, and Shimano have replaced it with a
couple of improved models, the Ultegra and XT.

And those in turn have been improved:
http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/cycle/seh/nl/en/news___info/news/
extremely_light_rotation.html

Though I haven't seen a UK web page advertizing them yet. Sheldon has a page
saying the DH-3N71 is the disk mount version of the DH-3N70, but the photo
he has doesn't look obviously disk mounty, and the Shimano page says the
DH-3D71 is the disk version.

Yup, Sheldon has made one of his rare mistakes there. The "real" 3N71
is now out for OEMs but not as a retail unit. ISTR that Ben Cooper has
had them on Koga Miyata bikes.

http://www.kinetics.org.uk/html/koga_globetraveller.shtml says DH-3N71.
But buying an entire new bike rather loses the "cheaper than a SON"
advantage :-).

Any idea when it will be available retail, and whether it's really as improved
as the Shimano page says (and how much more it will cost)?