Light Problems - Tell Me This is Not Normal?

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it normal to get so little time for so many batteries? Even with
rechargeables, this is expensive, and 8 AAs in my saddlebag are actually
quite heavy. I would not want to fit a dynamo to this bike because it
could be incompatible with the folding action and I hate dynamos anyway.
But there must be something better.

Thanks for your experiences.

EFR
Ile de France

If your lights are normal bulb lights and not LEDs, I'd say that was normal.
The lack of run-time is what got me to switch to the LED lights as LEDs have
far longer run-times. Since switching to the 2 x Cateye HL-EL300, the
h*lm*t-mounted single LED and... as of yesterday, a S-Sun SS-L120 LED fixed
to the inner fork (which lights up the dirty, often indistinct, edge of road
excellently) I am an extremely happy bunny when cycling the lanes of Norfolk
in the dark. I cycled home from a meeting in Dereham last night in the pitch
black - no streetlighting, no moonlight, heavy cloud cover, and I felt
totally confident with the amount & spread of light I was getting from my
lighting set-up. I've had the same batteries in my front Cateyes since my
trip to France, summer 04. I've been using them a couple of hours a week for
the last seven weeks and they are still extremely bright.

Cheers, helen s

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I bought some very bright battery-powered front and back lights (bright
enough to see by, not just to be seen) for my folding bike. The back
light takes 3 AA batteries and the front light takes 5 AA batteries.

Despite what seems like a lot of power, I cannot get more than about an
hour of performance from the front light.

If you want a good front light /and/ long running time then AA batteries
are simply not up to the job. Note that serious battery lights use
separate and reasonably large rechargeable cells sold with the lamps.

Quoted message said:

The back light is also quite unreliable. When I turn it on it is all
bright and dandy but I realize, a while into the trip, that it is giving
no light! This is not safe.

For rear lamps there is no reason not to use an LED unit, several good
ones are available. The Cateye AU-100 is good and bright, clips to the
seatpost or bolts to a rear mudguard and lasts about 40 hours on a set
of AAs, and it's far from the only game in town.

Quoted message said:

I took the first set back to the store because the front light had
stopped working entirely after only being used about 3 times. The brand
name, perhaps appropriately, is Basta.

Nothing especially wrong with them as a brand AFAICT.

Quoted message said:

Is it normal to get so little time for so many batteries?

If they're wee batteries running serious current (and lots of light
froma halogen unit means serious current) then yes. Further note that
All Batteries Are Not Created Equal, and rechargeables won't last as
long as good one-shot batteries in any case.

Quoted message said:

rechargeables, this is expensive, and 8 AAs in my saddlebag are actually
quite heavy. I would not want to fit a dynamo to this bike because it
could be incompatible with the folding action and I hate dynamos anyway.
But there must be something better.

A dynamo... a hub dynamo has no effect on the fold because it just takes
the place of the front hub. A Schmidt may well be a better quality
front hub in its own right than quite a lot of front hubs! The new
Shimanos aren't quite as nice but are half the price and are still
pretty nice. As for hating them, with a good hub there's nothing to
hate: you don't notice it when it's not running and you only notice it
when it is because your lamps are working. If you run just a front lamp
with a 3W bulb it'll be brighter and you won't have to wire past the
folding hinge, while rear LED lamps render running a rear lamp off the
dynamo less important because batteries in red LEDs last so long anyway.
This is why my Brompton (which is routinely folded a lot) uses a Schmidt
SON for its front light, which is always on the bike and thus doesn't
need worrying about. It's more reliable and less fuss than battery
systems and there's nothing extra to carry.

But if you must have battery lights on the front get a proper
rechargeable lamp and battery, rather than a clip on that takes AAs.
Those are fine for the odd use or emergencies but not much use these
days for serious lighting if you have money to spend on the job.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

If you want a good front light /and/ long running time then AA batteries
are simply not up to the job. Note that serious battery lights use
separate and reasonably large rechargeable cells sold with the lamps.

Thanks for your input. I have this system of a large rechargeable cell on
Myrtille, and it works reasonably well. Only problem is having to fit the cell
- once again, practically no space on a folding bike and didn't want to
interfere with the folding action.

Quoted message said:

If they're wee batteries running serious current (and lots of light
froma halogen unit means serious current) then yes. Further note that
All Batteries Are Not Created Equal, and rechargeables won't last as
long as good one-shot batteries in any case.

I have some sets of good one-shots. I'll experiment.

Quoted message said:

A dynamo... a hub dynamo has no effect on the fold because it just takes
the place of the front hub. A Schmidt may well be a better quality
front hub in its own right than quite a lot of front hubs!

I have absolutely no way to fit such a thing. The only LBS that will service
Flyzipper is very far from my home and requires a half-day's outing just to
get to. Moreover the bike has a SRAM dualdrive gearing system so the front hub
is more complicated than usual. I have never been that happy or felt safe with
my Dutch bike's dynamo system because I have no light when I need it most -
stopped at the intersection, or going extra slow down a dangerous, unlit dirt
path.

Quoted message said:

But if you must have battery lights on the front get a proper
rechargeable lamp and battery, rather than a clip on that takes AAs.
Those are fine for the odd use or emergencies but not much use these
days for serious lighting if you have money to spend on the job.

I will investigate the market from here. The person at my nearby LBS sold me
Myrtille's battery cell light but I'm determined never to set foot in his shop
again since he decided on a policy of only servicing bikes that he has sold
himself. Unfortunately, at the big shops like Go Sport, you can get very
little decent, disinterested advice.

EFR
Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I bought some very bright battery-powered front and back lights (bright
enough to see by, not just to be seen) for my folding bike. The back
light takes 3 AA batteries and the front light takes 5 AA batteries.

Despite what seems like a lot of power, I cannot get more than about an
hour of performance from the front light. That means that even a day's
round trip to and from work, about 3 hours travelling, requires that I
carry around extra sets of batteries.

The back light is also quite unreliable. When I turn it on it is all
bright and dandy but I realize, a while into the trip, that it is giving
no light! This is not safe.

I took the first set back to the store because the front light had
stopped working entirely after only being used about 3 times. The brand
name, perhaps appropriately, is Basta.

Is it normal to get so little time for so many batteries? Even with
rechargeables, this is expensive, and 8 AAs in my saddlebag are actually
quite heavy. I would not want to fit a dynamo to this bike because it
could be incompatible with the folding action and I hate dynamos anyway.
But there must be something better.

Thanks for your experiences.

EFR
Ile de France

I use two types of cateye on the rear sorry I can't remember the
numbers, one takes 2AAA the other 2 AA, both are current models, one is
the long thin 5 LED one the other is the BS6102/2 & BS6102/3 LED one. I
use the lights for about 30 minutes each day and the batteries last at
least a month (it has been about a month since I replaced them and the
show no sign of dimming yet). Up front I have a small Oxford Magni
something 3 LED and either a cateye 5 LED job or a halogen with
rechargables. The Oxford takes 3 AAA and is new so I have not yet had it
run down, so far with 9 30min journies it is going strong. The cateye is
reported to last 20 hours on its 4 AAAs. The halogen rechargable takes 5
AA sized cells and with 2000mAh cells I used ot for five journeys, let
the lamp go out on a Friday night and recharge over the weekend. Note
that as I use dry cells for my LED lights, only rechargables for my halogen.

I'd use a SON hub and B&M lumotect front lamp if I could find the money,
I am saving up for one right now.

I think your experiences are not normal E ;-(

MSeries said:

Up front I have a small Oxford Magni
something 3 LED and either a cateye 5 LED job or a halogen with
rechargables. The halogen rechargable takes 5
AA sized cells and with 2000mAh cells I used ot for five journeys, let
the lamp go out on a Friday night and recharge over the weekend. Note
that as I use dry cells for my LED lights, only rechargables for my halogen.

The halogen sounds similar to mine. Do you know what make it is?

EFR
Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I have absolutely no way to fit such a thing. The only LBS that will service
Flyzipper is very far from my home and requires a half-day's outing just to
get to.

You have a wheel built by /anyone/ you want in whatever time it takes
them to do it. Once the wheel is shipped you just need to put it in and
connect the terminal to a dynamo specific lamp, which fits on a standard
bracket mounting on the brake boss.

So if you can take a wheel out and put one in then you can do the wheel
side of things, and if you can follow the wiring diagram you can do the
rest. If you're not happy doing that then take half a day's outing, but
remember that that time investment means basically no more worrying
about your front lights.

Quoted message said:

Moreover the bike has a SRAM dualdrive gearing system so the front hub
is more complicated than usual.

The DualDrive is installed in the rear hub (it uses a three gear
internal) and the /front/, where the dynamo goes, should be completely
standard.

Quoted message said:

I have never been that happy or felt safe with
my Dutch bike's dynamo system because I have no light when I need it most -
stopped at the intersection, or going extra slow down a dangerous, unlit dirt
path.

This is easily resolved using a standlight. The lamp has condensers
that store up a charge while you're on the move, and when you stop they
light up a LED backup so you can still be seen at junctions. An example
is the B&M Lumotec Oval Plus. If you get the Oval Senso Plus is will
even turn on the lights automatically for you as it gets dark so you
don't forget and there's no moving parts in a switch to break. It's a
very nice system.
A Schmidt SON has to be down at walking pace in a 20" wheel to not run
the lamp. The lane I stay is an unlit dirt path (apart from the stones
and rocks, that is) and it's fine on that on my Brompton (which having
16" rather than 20" wheels isn't so good over the bumps).
Note that the SON comes in different versions for different size wheels
(because smaller wheels have the hub spinning faster), and you'd want
the one for smaller wheels in your Dahon.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

The DualDrive is installed in the rear hub (it uses a three
gear internal) and the /front/, where the dynamo goes,
should be completely standard.

Dahon use a narrow front hub on some of their bikes, including (I suspect)
EFR's.

http://www.dahon.co.uk/fronthub.htm

It might be possible to use a Son XS (aka BromSON), or spread the fork (as
I think you did for your Brompton).

Quoted message said:

A Schmidt SON has to be down at walking pace in a 20" wheel
to not run the lamp. The lane I stay is an unlit dirt path (apart
from the stones and rocks, that is) and it's fine on that on my
Brompton (which having 16" rather than 20" wheels isn't so
good over the bumps). Note that the SON comes in different
versions for different size wheels (because smaller wheels
have the hub spinning faster), and you'd want the one for
smaller wheels in your Dahon.

As I understand it, Elisa doesn't ride quickly. The SON intended for big
wheels would produce a higher output at very low speeds, and might be more
to her liking - if it will fit the fork.

However, I know that Elisa's tried dynohubs - partly on my recommendation -
and found them not to her taste.

Elisa:

I provide bicycle consultng services free to all my friends, I live not far
from you, I have various lights you'd be welcome to borrow to try, and I
only bite on newsgroups - and only then when provoked.

James Thomson

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

The back light is also quite unreliable. When I turn it on it is all
bright and dandy but I realize, a while into the trip, that it is giving
no light! This is not safe.

I had that problem with a rear light. After long headscratching I came
to the conclusion that whenever I hit a pothole [1] it jolted the
batteries, breaking the contact, and it flipped 'off' (since it had a
press-on, press-off switch). The short-term cure was to open it up and
pack wadded paper behind the battery terminals (which were springs) to
keep them pressed against the ends of the batteries. THe long term
cure was to switch to a Cateye AU-100 which has done just fine.

R.

[1] "Don't hit potholes!" I hear you cry. Easier said than done round
here, mate.

Following on from Elisa Francesca Roselli's message. . .

Quoted message said:

I bought some very bright battery-powered front and back lights (bright
enough to see by, not just to be seen) for my folding bike. The back
light takes 3 AA batteries and the front light takes 5 AA batteries.

Firstly as others have said AAs are not really a good idea. My guess is
that the bulbs are being over rated by 25% and 50% which means the bulb
life will be very short.

Also rechargeables in the back are a bad idea 'cos they fade very
quickly whereas if you have to use a filament rear light (but LED highly
recommended) then an ordinary battery fades gradually so you should be
able to tell if it is poorly in good time to do something about it.

Nickel-MH batteries cannot be mixed or charged with a Nickel-Cadmium set
or charger. If you are getting very short life the batteries could have
been ruined by the wrong charger.

Or _one_ of the batteries is defective which will clobber the overall
output as they are in series and the duff one is now a hindrance to the
others. When I was learning the above the hard way I marked my
batteries and kept them in separate sets.

I use 2 C Ni-Cd cells in my front light which gives 4 hours and other
cyclists consider my light to be a good one. An AA has about half the
mAh of a C so you should be getting about the same on your front.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the bolt company screwed up
[email hidden]
2 Tees Close, Witham, Essex.
Gravity beer in Essex <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk>

James Thomson said:

However, I know that Elisa's tried dynohubs - partly on my recommendation -
and found them not to her taste.

I do realise that, but she's also tried the alternatives and they're not
right either, so between a rock and a hard place it may still be the
softest option...

Also it strikes me the issues she's raised with dynamos are not
particularly (a) related to having a dynohub specifically, or (b) insoluble.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I bought some very bright battery-powered front and back lights
(bright enough to see by, not just to be seen) for my folding bike.
The back light takes 3 AA batteries and the front light takes 5 AA
batteries.

Despite what seems like a lot of power, I cannot get more than about
an hour of performance from the front light. That means that even a
day's round trip to and from work, about 3 hours travelling, requires
that I carry around extra sets of batteries.

The back light is also quite unreliable. When I turn it on it is all
bright and dandy but I realize, a while into the trip, that it is
giving no light! This is not safe.

That won't happen with a decent LED rear light with alkaline batteries.

Quoted message said:

I took the first set back to the store because the front light had
stopped working entirely after only being used about 3 times. The
brand name, perhaps appropriately, is Basta.

Is it normal to get so little time for so many batteries?

About normal for a bulb-light that uses such small cells. You might get a
bit more run time with very high capacity rechargeables (2300 - 2500 mAh)
if they're kept in top condition with a smart charger. Definitely avoid
alkalines or low-capacity rechargeables with this light, but preferably
get something better altogether, whether that be a hub dynamo or proper
rechargeable system.

~PB

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

MSeries said:

Up front I have a small Oxford Magni
something 3 LED and either a cateye 5 LED job or a halogen with
rechargables. The halogen rechargable takes 5
AA sized cells and with 2000mAh cells I used ot for five journeys, let
the lamp go out on a Friday night and recharge over the weekend. Note
that as I use dry cells for my LED lights, only rechargables for my halogen.

The halogen sounds similar to mine. Do you know what make it is?

EFR
Ile de France

Mine is a Sigma Ellipsoidal, has a built in charging port which is neat.
I don't use it though as I can't determine the optimal
time/voltage/wattage or whatever for charging the cells. Then I'd have
to get a supply to do it though I have seen the same lamp in Decathlon
this year with a charger in the set and presumably some cells. I just
take my cells out and use my charger that came with them.

James Thomson said:

Elisa:

I provide bicycle consultng services free to all my friends, I live not far
from you, I have various lights you'd be welcome to borrow to try, and I
only bite on newsgroups - and only then when provoked.

That is very kind of you, James. May I bring you Flyzipper some weekend or RTT
day when we're neither of us working, for a consultation?

I'm curious about this system Peter Clinch mentions (B&M Lumotec Oval Plus)
with the standlight. On the other hand, I do very frequently walk my bikes,
especially in dark muddy places where I don't feel confident riding, and
moreover I like to be able to pop the bike light off to use as a general
flashlight, for example when rootling around in the garage. So the halogen
would be perfect for me if only it were more reliable. I will try various
battery sets to see if, as Peter Fox suggested, it isn't just a particularly
rum set.

As for being seen, that is easier. I have two LED blinkers that I wear on
armbands, plus one of those flourescent vests with reflective strips that
road-workers wear. I never seem to have problems with LEDs.

EFR
Ile de France

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I'm curious about this system Peter Clinch mentions (B&M Lumotec Oval Plus)
with the standlight. On the other hand, I do very frequently walk my bikes,
especially in dark muddy places where I don't feel confident riding, and
moreover I like to be able to pop the bike light off to use as a general
flashlight, for example when rootling around in the garage.

This is where a dynohub will fail you. OTOH, you can supplement it with
a cheap and light white LED "standby" clipon, perfectly adequate for
walking the bike or generally looking about at a stroll delivered for a
long time are not a combination that's easily available, or everyone
would use it!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

I'm torn about whether to
bring Flyzipper or just accept the rented Dutch bike that comes with the
holiday.

I'd take the Dahon: you *know* you like it, and it works for you, and
you also know that you're quite sensitive to the foibles of different
bikes and have a degree of difficulty adjusting to them, even over the
longer term.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

I'd take the Dahon: you *know* you like it, and it works for you, and
you also know that you're quite sensitive to the foibles of different
bikes and have a degree of difficulty adjusting to them, even over the
longer term.

Exactly. My main fear is that I like Fly so much I panic about him being
stolen, which I'm told is a national sport in the Netherlands. But the tour
organizers tell me they are quite good about keeping the bikes safe. OTOH, I
suppose it's possible to do both. The tour price has the bike rent included
and no reduction for bringing your own bike.

EFR
Ile de France

in message <[email hidden]>, Elisa Francesca Roselli

(') said:

I bought some very bright battery-powered front and back lights
(bright enough to see by, not just to be seen) for my folding bike.
The back light takes 3 AA batteries and the front light takes 5 AA
batteries.

Despite what seems like a lot of power, I cannot get more than about
an hour of performance from the front light. That means that even a
day's round trip to and from work, about 3 hours travelling, requires
that I carry around extra sets of batteries.

If the lights have incandescent bulbs, this probably is as much as you
can expect. Bright-enough-to-see-by lamps which work off little totty
batteries aren't going to last long. My lumicycles, with a bottle-cage
full of NiMH cells, are only good for about two hours of full 30 watt
use.

Battery lights bright-enough-to-see-by are either very expensive or use
lead acid batteries; in any case they don't last very long. In my
opinion for road use a hub dynamo is a much better idea.

Quoted message said:

The back light is also quite unreliable. When I turn it on it is all
bright and dandy but I realize, a while into the trip, that it is
giving no light! This is not safe.

LED rear lights are much better than incandescents, and if you buy a
good make (like Cat Eye) are pretty reliable.

Quoted message said:

Is it normal to get so little time for so many batteries? Even with
rechargeables, this is expensive, and 8 AAs in my saddlebag are
actually quite heavy. I would not want to fit a dynamo to this bike
because it could be incompatible with the folding action and I hate
dynamos anyway. But there must be something better.

Well, there are extremely high power LEDs just coming onto the market -
the things that SolidLights produce for example. At the moment they are
very expensive because they're new, but they aren't inherently
expensive and will get much cheaper over the next few years. They are
*much* more energy efficient than incandescents and will produce a
brighter light for the same amount of energy.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

That is very kind of you, James.

Bof, y'a pas de quoi.

Quoted message said:

May I bring you Flyzipper some weekend or RTT day when
we're neither of us working, for a consultation?

Of course. I'm also out your way fairly often on Sundays and and holidays
(I like to ride in the Chevreuse-Yvelines-Rambouillet-Chartres-Etampes
area) if that's simpler for you. You have my number, I think. If not, my
reply-to address is valid.

Quoted message said:

I'm curious about this system Peter Clinch mentions (B&M Lumotec
Oval Plus) with the standlight.

My friend Jean has one driven by a Shimano dynohub wheel. I'm sure he'd be
happy to give you a demonstration. In Paris, they're available from
Randocycles at the porte de Vincennes, though they're far cheaper if
ordered from Germany.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I do very frequently walk my bikes, especially
in dark muddy places where I don't feel confident riding, and
moreover I like to be able to pop the bike light off to use as a
general flashlight, for example when rootling around in the garage.

As Pete says, a battery light - either an LED or conventional bulb - makes
a great backup to a dynohub. The Standlicht is a single LED - adequate, but
better to be seen by than to see by. Still, having heard your comments on
your dynohub experience so far (and frankly, I feel guilty that I steered
you in that direction) I suspect that a good battery-only system may be
more to your liking.

James Thomson

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:26:06 +0100 someone who may be Elisa
Francesca Roselli <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Even with
rechargeables, this is expensive, and 8 AAs in my saddlebag are actually
quite heavy.

There are "intelligent" battery chargers that will charge almost any
type of cell individually. This will get the most out of them.
However, as others have said they are too small to last for long
when being used in a bright filament front lamp.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.