Lifetime Olympic Ban for Mark French

Dave H said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jun04/jun21news2

Just back from Oz. More later, but the word is the Aussies have
actually stuffed this one up, not so much French's ban, but more for the
innuendo around the sprint squad.

Stewart Fleming said:

Just back from Oz. More later, but the word is the Aussies have actually
stuffed this one up, not so much French's ban, but more for the innuendo
around the sprint squad.

Yes, it is a weird situation. None of them have tested positive to
anything but empty vials of horse growth hormone were found.

There is lots in the paper about the use of Testicomp which contains
miniscule amounts of corticosteroids. The papers don't mention that
corticosteroids are different to anabolic steroids and that their
performance enhancing capabilities are approximately zero. Also, the
papers generally refer to cyclists in general rather that a few
track cyclists.

Certainly does cast a poor light on Aussie cyclists as far as the public
is concerned.

--

"patch70" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Certainly does cast a poor light on Aussie cyclists as far as the public
is concerned.

One Sydney paper is running conflicting stories at the moment - the first
one publishing the names of the five cyclists named by French; the second
one (which appears to be based on this one):
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jun04/jun26newsGK noting
that Brown was overseas when the French incident took place. The second
story mysteriously appeared on the Sydney newspaper's website on Monday,
June 28, but was dated Saturday, June 26 :-)

It boils down to whether you choose to believe French or everyone else.

The story has had a great run in political circles, and I'm sure that the
wonderfully caring Aussie politicians have the best interests of all the
athletes at heart. Really I do.

Jeff

patch70 said:

Stewart Fleming said:

Just back from Oz. More later, but the word is the Aussies have actually
stuffed this one up, not so much French's ban, but more for the innuendo
around the sprint squad.

Yes, it is a weird situation. None of them have tested positive to
anything but empty vials of horse growth hormone were found.

I do believe when asked why horse growth hormone French turned his head
and whinnied.

Quoted message said:

There is lots in the paper about the use of Testicomp which contains
miniscule amounts of corticosteroids. The papers don't mention that
corticosteroids are different to anabolic steroids and that their
performance enhancing capabilities are approximately zero. Also, the
papers generally refer to cyclists in general rather that a few
track cyclists.

Corticosteroids reduce the feeling of pain, makes it easier to drive
yourself into the ground that much harder.

Quoted message said:

Certainly does cast a poor light on Aussie cyclists as far as the public
is concerned.

It tars all racing cyclists. Didn't you see where the kiddies in France
expressed their belief that all cyclists were doping and it was just
part of the sport? Out of the mouth of babes...

"Richard Adams" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

patch70 wrote:

Corticosteroids reduce the feeling of pain, makes it easier to drive
yourself into the ground that much harder.

Please show us the definitive testing and results where this claim is made
to make you "drive yourself" into the ground that mush harder
Dave

Jeff Jones said:

One Sydney paper is running conflicting stories at the moment - the first
one publishing the names of the five cyclists named by French; the second
one (which appears to be based on this one):
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/jun04/jun26newsGK noting
that Brown was overseas when the French incident took place. The second
story mysteriously appeared on the Sydney newspaper's website on Monday,
June 28, but was dated Saturday, June 26 :-)

There are about three separate stories.

1) that French used his room to allow other cyclists to inject themselves.

2) that French himself bought some product in Germany and brought it
back to Oz.

3) that someone left a vial of equine growth hormone in his room.

However, he's never said that the other cyclists (and one Melbourne
paper named them, including Jobie Dajka and Sean Eadie) injected
anything other than vitamin supplements. No steroids, no equine GH, no
nothing. Vitamins. French has collected a lifetime ban for probably
nothing more than not having a good enough lawyer.

Quoted message said:

The story has had a great run in political circles, and I'm sure that the
wonderfully caring Aussie politicians have the best interests of all the
athletes at heart. Really I do.

I haven't heard the phrase "shooting gallery" so often since I was back
in Glasgow in the early 80s...

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are about three separate stories.

Now there are - all dated June 26. Must be a slow FTP connection.

Quoted message said:

1) that French used his room to allow other cyclists to inject themselves.

2) that French himself bought some product in Germany and brought it
back to Oz.

3) that someone left a vial of equine growth hormone in his room.

There's also this one:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/25/1088144979810.html and the one
last Thursday or Friday (SMH and The Age (Melbourne) are both Fairfax
papers) where "names were named". I don't know how they got that one past
the lawyers.

Quoted message said:

However, he's never said that the other cyclists (and one Melbourne
paper named them, including Jobie Dajka and Sean Eadie) injected
anything other than vitamin supplements. No steroids, no equine GH, no
nothing. Vitamins. French has collected a lifetime ban for probably
nothing more than not having a good enough lawyer.

Quite true. But there is a big stigma associated with the needle. I mean,
the Aussies are all doing it on vegemite sandwiches and weetbix right? No
needles, no way! The fact remains that there was EGH in the syringes in
French's "sharps bucket".

The joke is that French's Testicomp only contained homeopathic amounts of
corticoids i.e. "about as useful as a dead wombat on Mastermind", to quote
hard hitting antipodean oaf Bruce Kanga. And I think it came off the WADA
banned list in January.

Jeff Jones said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are about three separate stories.

Now there are - all dated June 26. Must be a slow FTP connection.

I was in Melbourne last week. Technology there wasn't quite up with the
play here in NZ (i.e. couldn't blag a free wireless connection and while
I like RBR I'm too tight to pay for it.)

Quoted message said:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/25/1088144979810.html and the one
last Thursday or Friday (SMH and The Age (Melbourne) are both Fairfax
papers) where "names were named". I don't know how they got that one past
the lawyers.

Yes, the main story I read was in The Age on Thursday (front page) and
10 news on Friday night (I think) had quite a bit of coverage of the
sprint team arriving for training camp in Rockhampton.

Quoted message said:

Quite true. But there is a big stigma associated with the needle. I mean,
the Aussies are all doing it on vegemite sandwiches and weetbix right? No
needles, no way! The fact remains that there was EGH in the syringes in
French's "sharps bucket".

He (French) has not indicated who he believes injected the EGH. I would
imagine that the DNA testing will be inconclusive, the subsequent
investigation won't find anything and the sprint team will be cleared to
compete in Athens. (Possibly not including Sean Eadie, but for quite
different reasons - he has to go under 18s for standing 250m)

Quoted message said:

The joke is that French's Testicomp only contained homeopathic amounts of
corticoids i.e. "about as useful as a dead wombat on Mastermind", to quote
hard hitting antipodean oaf Bruce Kanga. And I think it came off the WADA
banned list in January.

See comments above about not having a good enough lawyer. If he had
wanted to do a "proper Kelli White", he'd have made sure he saw who
injected with what so he had something to cooperate with...

Dave H said:

Please show us the definitive testing and results where this claim is
made to make you "drive yourself" into the ground that mush harder Dave

I know that corticos as described in medical textbooks, and within
current scientific literature, do not have an action that could be
described as performance enhancing (except in controlling inflammation
in injured tissue). However, if you talk to an open, honest and reliable
sports medicine expert or exercise physiologist with experience in
distance running or cycling, I think you will find that some people are
aware of an action that occurs in high doses that has not thus far been
scientifically described, and that is in fact performance ehnhancing.

There isn't definitive testing on this, and I accept that neither my nor
Richard Adams explanations are particularly scientific or convincing,
but if you have the opportunity to investigate this further with people
who really know their stuff you might be surprised (I know I was).

None of this changes the fact that Testicomp had corticos in such
low doses it could never have had performance enhancing benefits to
Mark French.

--

In article <[email hidden]>,

Richard Adams said:

patch70 said:

Stewart Fleming said:

Just back from Oz. More later, but the word is the Aussies have actually
stuffed this one up, not so much French's ban, but more for the innuendo
around the sprint squad.

Yes, it is a weird situation. None of them have tested positive to
anything but empty vials of horse growth hormone were found.

I do believe when asked why horse growth hormone French turned his head
and whinnied.

Pedalchick credit here, Richard (it's still a great line, imo):

<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=GoCAc.1022
0%24XR.9900%40fe28.usenetserver.com>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Certainly does cast a poor light on Aussie cyclists as far as the public
is concerned.

It tars all racing cyclists. Didn't you see where the kiddies in France
expressed their belief that all cyclists were doping and it was just
part of the sport? Out of the mouth of babes...

It sure seems like the kids just took it as part of the deal. Pretty
much like we all assume the same thing about pro hockey and fights. That's
horrible. The hard part is going to be figuring out how to counter that
line of thought.

--
tanx,
Howard

"The fickleness of fame and fortune's caprice
Together changed the life of Mason Reese"
Alice Donut

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>, Roadie_scum

Quoted message said:

Dave H said:

Please show us the definitive testing and results where this claim is
made to make you "drive yourself" into the ground that mush harder Dave

I know that corticos as described in medical textbooks, and withincurrent
scientific literature, do not have an action that could bedescribed as
performance enhancing (except in controlling inflammationin injured tissue).
However, if you talk to an open, honest and reliablesports medicine expert or
exercise physiologist with experience indistance running or cycling, I think
you will find that some people areaware of an action that occurs in high
doses that has not thus far beenscientifically described, and that is in fact
performance ehnhancing.

It's really hard to read what you write in that format/grammar/spelling.

I also think you're wrong about what you wrote here.

According to this guy (third on the page),
http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone is
not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will only
do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
some repair with a scope.

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

According to this guy (third on the page),
http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone is
not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will only
do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
some repair with a scope.

-WG

Interesting. I was always under the impression that pitchers frequently
injected cortisone in their elbows and that football players the same for
various joints in their bodies.

Carl Sundquist said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

According to this guy (third on the page),
http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone is
not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will only
do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
some repair with a scope.

-WG

Interesting. I was always under the impression that pitchers frequently
injected cortisone in their elbows and that football players the same for
various joints in their bodies.

I was under the impression that injections of cortisone eventually break
down cartilage. No?

In article <[email hidden]>, Richard Adams

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

According to this guy (third on the page),
http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone is
not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will only
do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
some repair with a scope.

-WG

Interesting. I was always under the impression that pitchers frequently
injected cortisone in their elbows and that football players the same for
various joints in their bodies.

I was under the impression that injections of cortisone eventually break
down cartilage. No?

At this moment I don't remember the specific reason he gave but here's
more information about the problems caused by too much cortisone.

http://www.prolonews.com/knee_cortisone_prolotherapy_hauser.htm

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Richard Adams

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

>According to this guy (third on the page),
>http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
>running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
>using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
>per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
>A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
>solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
>some repair with a scope.
>
>-WG

Interesting. I was always under the impression that pitchers

frequently

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

injected cortisone in their elbows and that football players the same

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

various joints in their bodies.

I was under the impression that injections of cortisone eventually break
down cartilage. No?

At this moment I don't remember the specific reason he gave but here's
more information about the problems caused by too much cortisone.

http://www.prolonews.com/knee_cortisone_prolotherapy_hauser.htm

-WG

Mind you, I'm not disputing what you've written, just connecting it with
something I had assumed. I recall reading that Manzano is having problems
resulting from cortisone as well.

Quoted message said:

From: "Carl Sundquist" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Mind you, I'm not disputing what you've written, just connecting it with
something I had assumed. I recall reading that Manzano is having problems
resulting from cortisone as well.

Hi Carl.
Sorry this is so vague I'm pulling it out of wetware. There was a college kid
who went to the NFL, I want to say it was late 80's, who got hurt his knee, so
they shot him up and he played. He got through practice that week, they shot
him up again for the next game. He played, but after the knee was considerably
worse, so the next week he refused the shot and went to an outside specialist
who immediately called for surgery. When he went back to the team they
suspended, then released him for not taking the shots and seeking outside
medical care. IIRC he sued and lost when the league and it's "doctors" closed
ranks on the kid.
The fact that it's bad news isn't new in either baseball or football but the
pressure to do it is sometimes overwhelming.
Bill C

Stewart Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

There are about three separate stories.

Now there are - all dated June 26. Must be a slow FTP connection.

I was in Melbourne last week. Technology there wasn't quite up with the
play here in NZ (i.e. couldn't blag a free wireless connection and while
I like RBR I'm too tight to pay for it.)

No I wasn't having a go at you - just the SMH for back
pedalling/reverse engineering their viewpoint in the wake of certain
(alleged) facts. Despite the dates, none of these articles appeared
until Monday, June 28.

Anyway I agree with you that the Aussies (media/political
parties/various sporting authorities) have really buggered this one
up.

Awaiting further developments.

Jeff

Richard Adams said:

I was under the impression that injections of cortisone eventually break
down cartilage. No?

Several Scottish football (soccer) players, now partially crippled or
having had to undergo hip replacements and knee reconstruction surgery
after the "popular" regime of cortisone injections prior to matches
would agree with you.

In article <[email hidden]>, Carl Sundquist

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Richard Adams

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist wrote:

> "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>
>>According to this guy (third on the page),
>>http://www.athleticamps.com/whoweare.html who is treating my "distance
>>running and cycling" wife for some knee problems, too much cortisone

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>not good. It is easy to develop significant damage to local tissues by
>>using more than just a little cortisone, say more than one injection
>>per 2-3 weeks, and more than 3-4 total injections in a 3 month period.
>>A "reliable sports medicine expert" like a sports medicine MD will

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>do three, maybe four injections before moving on to other possible
>>solutions. In the case of my wife's knee and many others, Eric will do
>>some repair with a scope.
>>
>>-WG
>
>
> Interesting. I was always under the impression that pitchers

frequently

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> injected cortisone in their elbows and that football players the same

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> various joints in their bodies.
>
>

I was under the impression that injections of cortisone eventually break
down cartilage. No?

At this moment I don't remember the specific reason he gave but here's
more information about the problems caused by too much cortisone.

http://www.prolonews.com/knee_cortisone_prolotherapy_hauser.htm

-WG

Mind you, I'm not disputing what you've written, just connecting it with
something I had assumed.

I was clear on that. Cortisone is very effectve in the short term and
it's tempting to use it beyond what is prudent, i.e. 3-4 injections.
With cortisone the hope is that a reduction in inflammation will allow
the tissues a chance to heal. I got three injections of cortisone for
high school basketball and the original injury was able to heal.

I'm sure you're correct that lots of football and baseball players have
used it far beyond 3-4 injections. I remember reading that Hinault and
Thevnet probably ended their careers because of cortisone issues in
their knees.

-WG