Levi sans dope. Not so good.

Great prediction!

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Levi will lose 14 minutes Thursday into Spain. Damn that dope WAS good.

Brian Phillips said:

Great prediction!

So, it just means his "package" arrived.

gym.gravity said:

Brian Phillips said:

Great prediction!

So, it just means his "package" arrived.

You all are conditioned by too long exposure to LANCE.
One of the freaky things about LANCE was that he hardly ever
had a jour sans. The Joux-Plane in 2000, the hot TT in 2003,
that's about it. When he "sucked" in prepatory races like the
Dauphine he was often still on the podium. Of course, this was
evidence of his extraterrestrial qualities, and we all know
what that means.

So now that we have to watch mere mortals like Levi, Floyd,
Iban Mayo, Cadel Evans race, we say sucking in June and doing
well in July is fishy. So is doing well in June and sucking in July.
Clearly suspicious blue-cooler-related timing. To summarize:
If you're strong in every race and don't have a weak day, you
must be a dirty dog doper. And if you're weak on one day and
strong on the other, you must be a dirty dog doper.

Quoted message said:

gym.gravity said:

Brian Phillips said:

Great prediction!

So, it just means his "package" arrived.

You all are conditioned by too long exposure to LANCE.
One of the freaky things about LANCE was that he hardly ever
had a jour sans. The Joux-Plane in 2000, the hot TT in 2003,
that's about it. When he "sucked" in prepatory races like the
Dauphine he was often still on the podium. Of course, this was
evidence of his extraterrestrial qualities, and we all know
what that means.

So now that we have to watch mere mortals like Levi, Floyd,
Iban Mayo, Cadel Evans race, we say sucking in June and doing
well in July is fishy. So is doing well in June and sucking in July.
Clearly suspicious blue-cooler-related timing. To summarize:
If you're strong in every race and don't have a weak day, you
must be a dirty dog doper. And if you're weak on one day and
strong on the other, you must be a dirty dog doper.

Only a dirty dog doper such as yourself could possibly have so much
insight.

Bret

email hidden said:

gym.gravity said:

Brian Phillips said:

Great prediction!

So, it just means his "package" arrived.

You all are conditioned by too long exposure to LANCE.
One of the freaky things about LANCE was that he hardly ever
had a jour sans. The Joux-Plane in 2000, the hot TT in 2003,
that's about it. When he "sucked" in prepatory races like the
Dauphine he was often still on the podium. Of course, this was
evidence of his extraterrestrial qualities, and we all know
what that means.

Well actually we don't, but yes, the lack of "jours sans" never really
made any sense to me. Still, guys like Hinaulf rarely had a "jour
sans" in the big tours, however they didn't make the climbers look
like fools in the mountains like LA did.

Quoted message said:

So now that we have to watch mere mortals like Levi, Floyd,
Iban Mayo, Cadel Evans race, we say sucking in June and doing
well in July is fishy. So is doing well in June and sucking in July.
Clearly suspicious blue-cooler-related timing. To summarize:
If you're strong in every race and don't have a weak day, you
must be a dirty dog doper. And if you're weak on one day and
strong on the other, you must be a dirty dog doper.

Well I don't think guys like Hinault ever lost 15+ minutes in June,
but Landis was preparing specifically for the TdF so it's
understandable, especially since he knew he would have to deal with ET
just fresh off the Giro.

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

To summarize:
If you're strong in every race and don't have a weak day, you
must be a dirty dog doper. And if you're weak on one day and
strong on the other, you must be a dirty dog doper.

So is VDB's dog a dirty double dog doper? And what about Tugboat?

NS
woof

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To summarize:
If you're strong in every race and don't have a weak day, you
must be a dirty dog doper. And if you're weak on one day and
strong on the other, you must be a dirty dog doper.

Nev Shea said:

So is VDB's dog a dirty double dog doper? And what about Tugboat?

And what about my poodle, blair ?

GWB

Quoted message said:

Well actually we don't, but yes, the lack of "jours sans" never really
made any sense to me. Still, guys like Hinaulf rarely had a "jour
sans" in the big tours, however they didn't make the climbers look
like fools in the mountains like LA did.

Climbing style was a bit different back then, but Hinaults ranking in
climbing stages was actually just as crushing. It's long ago, but I
simply cant remember a "jour sans" for either Hinault or Lemond. Even
Ulrichs famous bad day wasn't really a "jour sans", but a "Fringale".
He actually was very strong, but forgot to eat his lunch (His older
team mates were furious).

The best "Fringale" I remember was Fignon in the Giro. A few miles
before the finish he is well ahead and seems to win. Then he turns
ashen, stops and literally begs spectators for food... He lost 25
minutes or so. Yes, our mothers would have beaten him that day. Ullrich
was lucky only to loose 10 minutes. Could have been a lot worse.

Quoted message said:

Well I don't think guys like Hinault ever lost 15+ minutes in June,

Hinault did some preparation stage races before the TdF and certainly
didn't go for the victory in all of them.

Tuschinski said:

Quoted message said:

Well actually we don't, but yes, the lack of "jours sans" never really
made any sense to me. Still, guys like Hinaulf rarely had a "jour
sans" in the big tours, however they didn't make the climbers look
like fools in the mountains like LA did.

Climbing style was a bit different back then, but Hinaults ranking in
climbing stages was actually just as crushing.

I don't remember that, there were always guys like Zoetemelk, Winnen,
Anderson or Herrera in front of him, except maybe in 1981 when he was
at the top as Fignon was in 1984. And Hinault failed to win quite a
few of the ITTs too. Problem with LA is that he was at the 'top" for
six years, taking out 2003 where he showed some "humanity".

Quoted message said:

It's long ago, but I
simply cant remember a "jour sans" for either Hinault or Lemond. Even
Ulrichs famous bad day wasn't really a "jour sans", but a "Fringale".
He actually was very strong, but forgot to eat his lunch (His older
team mates were furious).

Terrible weather that day too and he lost a lot of energy trying to
make up for that flat tire alone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I don't think guys like Hinault ever lost 15+ minutes in June,

Hinault did some preparation stage races before the TdF and certainly
didn't go for the victory in all of them.

True, but 15 minutes down...I don't think he could have lived with
that ;-)

Quoted message said:

I don't remember that, there were always guys like Zoetemelk, Winnen,
Anderson or Herrera in front of him, except maybe in 1981 when he was
at the top as Fignon was in 1984.

I can seriously not remember a single instance in wich Zoetemelk took
more than a minute in a Mountainous stage
Winnen got a few minutes in 82 when he was allready 10 minutes behind.
Winnen lost more to Hinault in the mountains than that he won (his TT
was even worse of course🙂 Winnen simply wasn'tt a serious contender
(Wich Zoetemelk with his great TT was)
Anderson was so much of a non issue that he got free reign
Herrera was also a non-issue due to his abysmal TT.

Check the records: Hinault never lost time to a close competitor
(barring Lemond in 86)

Quoted message said:

And Hinault failed to win quite a
few of the ITTs too.

Afaik he lost ONE TT to a contender and was in 1980 to Zoetemelk.
Hinault won more TT's in the TdF than monsieur Chrono, Jacques
Anquetil.

Quoted message said:

Problem with LA is that he was at the 'top" for
six years, taking out 2003 where he showed some "humanity".

Quoted message said:

It's long ago, but I
simply cant remember a "jour sans" for either Hinault or Lemond. Even
Ulrichs famous bad day wasn't really a "jour sans", but a "Fringale".
He actually was very strong, but forgot to eat his lunch (His older
team mates were furious).

Terrible weather that day too and he lost a lot of energy trying to
make up for that flat tire alone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I don't think guys like Hinault ever lost 15+ minutes in June,

Hinault did some preparation stage races before the TdF and certainly
didn't go for the victory in all of them.

True, but 15 minutes down...I don't think he could have lived with
that ;-)

Seems hard to believe indeed🙂 *Imagines his angry face* Well, maybe
Benjo can help us out?

Tuschinski schreef:

Quoted message said:

Imagines [Hinault's] angry face

Obligatory link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/hinault.jpg

--
E. Dronkert

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Tuschinski said:

I can seriously not remember a single instance in wich Zoetemelk took
more than a minute in a Mountainous stage
Winnen got a few minutes in 82 when he was allready 10 minutes behind.
Winnen lost more to Hinault in the mountains than that he won (his TT
was even worse of course🙂 Winnen simply wasn'tt a serious contender
(Wich Zoetemelk with his great TT was)
Anderson was so much of a non issue that he got free reign
Herrera was also a non-issue due to his abysmal TT.

Check the records: Hinault never lost time to a close competitor
(barring Lemond in 86)

That's free rein.

--
Michael Press

Tuschinski said:

Quoted message said:

I don't remember that, there were always guys like Zoetemelk, Winnen,
Anderson or Herrera in front of him, except maybe in 1981 when he was
at the top as Fignon was in 1984.

I can seriously not remember a single instance in wich Zoetemelk took
more than a minute in a Mountainous stage
Winnen got a few minutes in 82 when he was allready 10 minutes behind.
Winnen lost more to Hinault in the mountains than that he won (his TT
was even worse of course🙂 Winnen simply wasn'tt a serious contender
(Wich Zoetemelk with his great TT was)
Anderson was so much of a non issue that he got free reign
Herrera was also a non-issue due to his abysmal TT.

Check the records: Hinault never lost time to a close competitor
(barring Lemond in 86)

Well there would be Fignon in 84 but that's OT since he was recovering
and Fignon was at the top.

The examples you give do show that Hinault was not crushing everyone
in the mountain as LA did for some many years winning pretty much all
the moutain top finishes starting in 1999 in Sestrières. Hinault
controlled the race in the mountains but couldn't really compete with
the real climbers, nor did he have to. LA was not only the best TT in
the world he was also the best climber, that always struck me as
abnormal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Hinault failed to win quite a
few of the ITTs too.

Afaik he lost ONE TT to a contender and was in 1980 to Zoetemelk.
Hinault won more TT's in the TdF than monsieur Chrono, Jacques
Anquetil.

To a contender yes but he lost a few to Keneteman and Bruyères if
memory serves. Too bad the excellent memoire du cyclisme site appears
to be gone or I would have looked it up. I can't remember LA losing
any ITT other than the one in 2003.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Problem with LA is that he was at the 'top" for
six years, taking out 2003 where he showed some "humanity".

Well I don't think guys like Hinault ever lost 15+ minutes in June,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hinault did some preparation stage races before the TdF and certainly
didn't go for the victory in all of them.

True, but 15 minutes down...I don't think he could have lived with
that ;-)

Seems hard to believe indeed🙂 *Imagines his angry face* Well, maybe
Benjo can help us out?

As usual he did ;-)

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 16 Jul 2006 10:30:28 -0700, "Tuschinski" <[email hidden]> wrote:

The examples you give do show that Hinault was not crushing everyone
in the mountain as LA did for some many years winning pretty much all
the moutain top finishes starting in 1999 in Sestrières. Hinault
controlled the race in the mountains but couldn't really compete with
the real climbers, nor did he have to. LA was not only the best TT in
the world he was also the best climber, that always struck me as
abnormal.

Armstrong had a technique and a physical talent and he used the first to
take advantage of the second. His power output was good but there were
plenty of people out there with better. He COULD however, generate far less
lactic acid in his muscles than other riders.

It's said that people who live at altitude have the same sort of physiology
so I assume it has a real physical reason.

Note that Lance very seldom went on long breaks and instead would use his
team to control time to the front and then on the last hill he would gun it
for as long as he could and then hold his power output right on the edge
after that. Because of that he would get big gaps really fast and that would
cause substantial psychological damage to his competitors. Only Ullrich and
Leipheimer seemed to be immune to the devastating effects of his break. Both
of them would just do their best and in the case of Ullrich he could
generally make up time on Armstrong since he had a bigger engine.

This same weird physiological talent would allow him to ride over the line
more often and for long while on TT's so he could generally finish at or
very near the top.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Afaik he lost ONE TT to a contender and was in 1980 to Zoetemelk.
Hinault won more TT's in the TdF than monsieur Chrono, Jacques
Anquetil.

To a contender yes but he lost a few to Keneteman and Bruyères if
memory serves. Too bad the excellent memoire du cyclisme site appears
to be gone or I would have looked it up. I can't remember LA losing
any ITT other than the one in 2003.

Rain, rain go away, come again some other day..

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Tuschinski schreef:

Quoted message said:

Imagines [Hinault's] angry face

Obligatory link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/hinault.jpg

That's a wonderful picture. But in order to really
understand Hinault's competitive drive, you have
to see where this picture was taken, and the context
that Ewoud cropped out. Here's the original shot,
and a very similar later instance (much smaller
resolution, sorry):

<http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/hinault1.jpg>
<http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/hinault2.jpg>

Ben

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The examples you give do show that Hinault was not crushing everyone
in the mountain as LA did for some many years winning pretty much all
the moutain top finishes starting in 1999 in Sestrières. Hinault
controlled the race in the mountains but couldn't really compete with
the real climbers, nor did he have to. LA was not only the best TT in
the world he was also the best climber, that always struck me as
abnormal.

Armstrong had a technique and a physical talent and he used the first to
take advantage of the second. His power output was good but there were
plenty of people out there with better. He COULD however, generate far less
lactic acid in his muscles than other riders.

It's said that people who live at altitude have the same sort of physiology
so I assume it has a real physical reason.

Note that Lance very seldom went on long breaks and instead would use his
team to control time to the front and then on the last hill he would gun it
for as long as he could and then hold his power output right on the edge
after that. Because of that he would get big gaps really fast and that would
cause substantial psychological damage to his competitors. Only Ullrich and
Leipheimer seemed to be immune to the devastating effects of his break. Both
of them would just do their best and in the case of Ullrich he could
generally make up time on Armstrong since he had a bigger engine.

Very well put. What made him pass as a real climber unlike, say
Hinault or Indurain is the "gunning" he did at the foot of the climb.
I wonder how these two or Lemond would have dealt with this kind of
tactics.

email hidden said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Tuschinski schreef:

Quoted message said:

Imagines [Hinault's] angry face

Obligatory link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ewoud/cycling/hinault.jpg

That's a wonderful picture. But in order to really
understand Hinault's competitive drive, you have
to see where this picture was taken, and the context
that Ewoud cropped out. Here's the original shot,
and a very similar later instance (much smaller
resolution, sorry):

<http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/hinault1.jpg>
<http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/hinault2.jpg>

Ben

Chomping at the bit, eh ? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Well there would be Fignon in 84 but that's OT since he was recovering
and Fignon was at the top.

The examples you give do show that Hinault was not crushing everyone
in the mountain as LA did for some many years winning pretty much all
the moutain top finishes starting in 1999 in Sestrières. Hinault
controlled the race in the mountains but couldn't really compete with
the real climbers, nor did he have to.

I repeat: point out someone who won time in the mountains in 78, 79, 81
and 82. Over a complete tour Hinault won time against everyone in the
mountains. Single stages he let people go, but the next day they
invariably lost time.

When Kneteman won, the next weekend the Raleigh team was obliterated in
the Pyrenees.

Quoted message said:

LA was not only the best TT in
the world he was also the best climber, that always struck me as
abnormal.

Yes and no. In a way Hinault, Lemond and Indurain also were the best
climbers of their generation. But Lance won where Hinault and Inurain
let others win.

Don't get me wrong, it is undisputed that Lance was relatively a better
climber as Hinault and Indurain, but if you look at the time won and
lost Indurain and Hinault were just as much the best "climbers" of
their generation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Hinault failed to win quite a
few of the ITTs too.

Afaik he lost ONE TT to a contender and was in 1980 to Zoetemelk.
Hinault won more TT's in the TdF than monsieur Chrono, Jacques
Anquetil.

To a contender yes but he lost a few to Keneteman and Bruyères if
memory serves. Too bad the excellent memoire du cyclisme site appears
to be gone or I would have looked it up. I can't remember LA losing
any ITT other than the one in 2003.

Zabriskie?

But absolutely granted, Lance was unique, seven against five tours
proofs that hands down.

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hinault or Indurain is the "gunning" he did at the foot of the climb.
I wonder how these two or Lemond would have dealt with this kind of
tactics.

Hinault was very careless and would attack sometimes at very strange times.
I had the idea that he was controlled totally by his temper when he was
racing. He would have tried to go with Lance for sure and would blow up most
of the time. But on a good day Hinault was probably a more talented rider.

Indurain would have simply been blown away. He could never have kept up with
Lance in the climbs after 1990 when he looked like a real climber. And
although he probably could have beaten Armstrong in the TT's I don't think
that he could have pulled out any significant time like he did on everyone
else. Indurain might have been the greatest TT guy in history.

LeMond rode completely on talent. When his talent starting ebbing he
couldn't compensate with intelligent riding. LeMond 1986 would have beaten
Lance soundly but LeMond 1989 would have looked foolish.