Let's talk about lowracers... (lengthy)

[Harryo]

"Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Harryo, You are right, it's mostly the rider and conditioning. How do you compare your speeds on
> your Vrex and Barron in various terrain and wind?
> --
> ~ Al Kubeluis ~ Bacchetta Corsa ~ Maryland ~ USA ~

To be completely honest, it is hard to make direct comparisons because I don't ride the V-Rex
much(my wife has claimed it) and when I do, it is usually in slower riding situations such as around
town and campgrounds. Also, I am in much better shape now than when I started riding the V-Rex 3
years ago. I would say that overall, I am probably 3-4 mph faster(ave. speed) on the Baron than the
V-Rex. When the headwinds are stiff, I would say the Baron is about 5-6 mph faster, on average. When
conditions are right, such as light wind, flat roads, no stops and I am really feeling good, I can
push my sustained speeds on the Baron close to 8-10 mph faster, for longer stretches. I find the
Baron to actually be fastest on gently rolling terrain, where I can utilize the downhill grades to
build speed, almost all of which I can carry on the shorter, gentler uphill grades.

These differences were not immediate when I started riding the Baron. It took me probably 1500 miles
of riding to completely attune myself to the Baron, especially when climbing on steeper grades.
There is definitely a big difference in the rider to bike physical interaction of the two bikes.

Harry Jiles

 

[Harryo]

"Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Freewheeling" skrev...
> > I don't think "lowness" has anything to do with the advantage unless there's something about
> > being close to the ground that reduces turbulence.
>
> Actually the air is calmer the closer you get to the ground. It's that Ekman spiral thingie. ;-)
> (vaguely remembered fluiddynamics course)
>

Yes, it is definitely calmer when closer to the ground. It is also hotter!

Harry Jiles

 

[Risto Varanka]

B. Sanders <[email protected]> wrote:
: From my experience, the 406mm wheels have lower rolling resistance, too. I can out-coast any DF
: bike, with any tires, on almost any surface. It's very obvious in a group ride. Aero advantage +
: skinny, hi-pressure tires + small wheels = superior coasting.

I find it rather ironic that people claim that both large and small wheels are the more
aerodynamically efficient in the same thread

IME, tyres are important. Semislicks on my hybrid give a rather different, easy rolling feeling
from the stock semiknobs. Race bikes would be even better. Recumbents seem to have wider tyres
than racing DF bikes, maybe because of the small wheels, so I'm doubting the tyre advantage of
lowracers a bit.

Tyres are especially important at low speeds, when the aerodynamics wither in significance. So if
you do long rides...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On 21 Jan 2003 22:15:27 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>What kind of experiences do you LR owning people have on the safety issues? Have you gone
>unnoticed, ignored? Do other people comment on safety?

If I had a pound for all the people who say they "nearly" didn't see me riding my Stinger I'd be a
rich man. And if I had another pound for everyone who says how dangerous it must be and how surely
nobody can see me I'd be a very rich man.

It hasn't passed me by that all these people not only *did* see me, but saw me sufficiently well
that when they see me again in another context (maybe without the bike) they recognise me. And that,
I think, tells me everything I need to know about how conspicuous a low bike /really/ is.

Wedgies are the true stealth vehicle. Nobody gives those a second glance.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

 

[Bruce Griffin]

I believe that another advantage that lowracers offer is that they are close enough to the ground
to get in the "Ground Effect" or reduced wind velocity near the ground due to air friction close to
the surface.

Obviously a big help on head wind and cross wind days along with the small frontal area.

Lowracers are just plain more fun to ride.

[email protected] (Ridebent) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > I've read reports from lowracer owners that they are not getting the speed gains that they had
> > hoped for. So what's the big deal about lowracers, and why do people swear by them? I will admit
> > that the M5 attracted coeds like a magnet, which may be one very good reason to own one; but
> > that's not why I bought a lowracer If not for speed, then why own one?
> >
> > Ed Gin is, by all reports, a bona fide speed demon on his unfaired Festina. Certainly there are
> > plenty of others who fairly smoke the track on their Jesters, Barons, M5's, Zox's, Wishbones and
> > Taifuns (did I miss any?) But for some of us, the promise of noticeable speed gains has remained
> > elusive. I'm still convinced that there are speed gains to be had; but I can't figure out the
> > formula for speed. I has been said that different riding positions require different muscle
> > training, and that surely could explain some of my disappointing results with the M5 (I didn't
> > ride it enough.)
> >
> > Is it that simple? Is the only advantage of lowracers in the lowness?
>
> The advantage of lowracers is in the aerodynamics (seems obvious), but these aerodynamics are more
> dramatic, have a greater impact the faster you go.
>
> People accustomed to riding 12-15 mph aren't going to be doing 22-25mph just by jumping on a
> lowracer. I'm sure the riders you mentioned above (don't know them personally) train for speed and
> as a result, benefit greatly from the aerodynamics that lowracers provide.
>
> There's no magic bike that's going to dramatically boost someone's speed without the requisite
> physical conditioning. However, with the proper conditioning, lowracers are fast and fun
>
> Alan

 

[Dan Kluckhuhn]

A lot of people tell me they can't see me, but I guess they did, or they wouldn't mention it. I try
to avoid roads wider than 2 lanes (one each way), as it's easy to get hidden behind a car in one
lane while someone in the other lane decides to change lanes and comes up on me. It is also more
difficult to see oncoming cars at intersections that have a crest, as you cant see as far over the
hill. I have also been hit while driving a large car by someone who "didn't see me", so when your
time's up, it's up. Dan Kluckhuhn

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> harryo <[email protected]> wrote:
> : to rolling roads common here, I have found no equal. By the way, I don't find the Baron at all
> : unsafe for my riding.
>
> What kind of experiences do you LR owning people have on the safety issues? Have you gone
> unnoticed, ignored? Do other people comment on safety? Any close calls?
>
> Where do you ride? I was thinking lowracers might have enough visibility for road riding, but not
> for commuting in (semi)urban environment.
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ risto varanka at no spam please helsinki fi

 

[Mark Van Gorkom]

>What kind of experiences do you LR owning people have on the safety issues? Have you gone
>unnoticed, ignored? Do other people comment on safety? Any close calls?

Well,you do get overlooked more on a lower bike,but bright clothes and\or a miner's lamp do wonders.
On the plus side,I'm now even more on eye level with motorists, so it's easier to see if people look
around them.
>Where do you ride? I was thinking lowracers might have enough visibility for road riding, but not
>for commuting in (semi)urban environment.
Haven't noticed much difference visibility-wise between town & country, but it's mostly cycle lanes
here anyhow. At intersections, it helps to sit up for a moment, both to see and to be seen; it's
also the only way I ever get to do sit-ups... Surprisingly, I don't get overlooked in UK, where
bikes (let alone lowracers) aren't all that common, but I do get overlooked in Holland, where
they're thick as flies!

Mark van Gorkom.

P.S.: I still feel safer on the Baron than I do on the Brompton; better brakes, and a much less
painfull fall if things go wrong.

 

[Freewheeling]

Bruce:

I have heard that. I don't believe it.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Bruce Griffin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I believe that another advantage that lowracers offer is that they are close enough to the ground
> to get in the "Ground Effect" or reduced wind velocity near the ground due to air friction close
> to the surface.
>
> Obviously a big help on head wind and cross wind days along with the small frontal area.
>
> Lowracers are just plain more fun to ride.
>
>
>
>
> [email protected] (Ridebent) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > > I've read reports from lowracer owners that they are not getting the
speed
> > > gains that they had hoped for. So what's the big deal about
lowracers, and
> > > why do people swear by them? I will admit that the M5 attracted coeds
like
> > > a magnet, which may be one very good reason to own one; but that's not
why I
> > > bought a lowracer If not for speed, then why own one?
> > >
> > > Ed Gin is, by all reports, a bona fide speed demon on his unfaired
Festina.
> > > Certainly there are plenty of others who fairly smoke the track on
their
> > > Jesters, Barons, M5's, Zox's, Wishbones and Taifuns (did I miss any?)
But
> > > for some of us, the promise of noticeable speed gains has remained
elusive.
> > > I'm still convinced that there are speed gains to be had; but I can't
figure
> > > out the formula for speed. I has been said that different riding
positions
> > > require different muscle training, and that surely could explain some
of my
> > > disappointing results with the M5 (I didn't ride it enough.)
> > >
> > > Is it that simple? Is the only advantage of lowracers in the lowness?
> >
> > The advantage of lowracers is in the aerodynamics (seems obvious), but these aerodynamics are
> > more dramatic, have a greater impact the faster you go.
> >
> > People accustomed to riding 12-15 mph aren't going to be doing 22-25mph just by jumping on a
> > lowracer. I'm sure the riders you mentioned above (don't know them personally) train for speed
> > and as a result, benefit greatly from the aerodynamics that lowracers provide.
> >
> > There's no magic bike that's going to dramatically boost someone's speed without the requisite
> > physical conditioning. However, with the proper conditioning, lowracers are fast and fun
> >
> > Alan

 

[Edd Brady]

From 1981 to 2002 I've had a goal to ride from home to work at an average speed of 25+ MPH. Until
2001, I rode a Raleigh Pro and Ciocc road bikes and "Pop" Brennan track bike. In 2001, I had to
switch to a recumbent. I then rode a Lightning P-38 with super Zzipper front fairing. On all those
bikes, I never exceeded 23 MPH average for the 14 mile trip from Scottsdale to Phoenix, AZ (no hills
and approx. 200 foot total drop with good road surfaces and light traffic). A month after I bought
an Optima low Baron (with tail fairing and wheel covers) in mid-2002, I had 3 trips on the same
route ranging from 26.1 to 26.5 MPH average (at 57 years of age). I had less than 1000 miles on the
low racer and was/am still trying different boom distances and seat angles. I'm here to tell you, it
is about the bike (sorry Lance, your title may be correct if you limit the bike variations within
UCI rules, but not if you consider the bigger picture).

Ride hard and ride low,

Edd

 

[Edd Brady]

[email protected] wrote in message ?
>
> Where do you ride? I was thinking lowracers might have enough visibility for road riding, but not
> for commuting in (semi)urban environment.

I mostly ride my Optima low Baron to and from work in the Phoenix, AZ metro area. I avoid streets
with parallel parked cars and parking lots. Other than that, I ride the same roads I used on a
diamond frame. I act like a motor vehicle, i.e., I never pass on the right, I stop in line at
traffic lights and stop signs, I move to the left lane to make left turns, etc. That's the way I
rode the diamond frames, so it's no big deal. If you pass stopped traffic on the right, you will
probably get people to run over you, because drivers of many vehicles can not see you on a low racer
when you are alongside. I've found that they have no trouble seeing me as they approach from behind.
When I stop, I stay behind them where they can still see me with their inside rear view mirror.
Typically, that is still less than one vehicle length behind their bumper.

as always, common sense is advised,

Edd

 

[Mikael Seierup]

<[email protected]> skrev
> What kind of experiences do you LR owning people have on the safety issues? Have you gone
> unnoticed, ignored? Do other people comment on safety? Any close calls?

I have had close calls on all types of bikes from my very upright DF (my head is 180 cm up in the
air) to my TE-clone that puts me eye to eye with cardrivers to my semilow Evita.

The problem isn't that they don't _see_ me... it's that they don't _look_ for me. As in turn right
in intersections without turning their heads or even checking their mirrors. Just have be alert,
have a noisy bell/horn and be ready for some evasive manouvers or emergency braking.

M.

 

[Freewheeling]

All else being equal, smaller wheels will be more aerodynamic while larger wheels will have less
rolling resistance. On typical asphalt roadways, with lots of irregularities, decreased rolling
resistance will compensate for the loss in aerodynamics.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> B. Sanders <[email protected]> wrote:
> : From my experience, the 406mm wheels have lower rolling resistance, too.
I
> : can out-coast any DF bike, with any tires, on almost any surface. It's
very
> : obvious in a group ride. Aero advantage + skinny, hi-pressure tires +
small
> : wheels = superior coasting.
>
> I find it rather ironic that people claim that both large and small wheels are the more
> aerodynamically efficient in the same thread
>
> IME, tyres are important. Semislicks on my hybrid give a rather different, easy rolling feeling
> from the stock semiknobs. Race bikes would be even better. Recumbents seem to have wider tyres
> than racing DF bikes, maybe because of the small wheels, so I'm doubting the tyre advantage of
> lowracers a bit.
>
> Tyres are especially important at low speeds, when the aerodynamics wither in significance. So if
> you do long rides...
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[A&B]

FreeW, You're not related to the Ewell Gibbons-Talkingtons are you? bill g

Freewheeling wrote:
>
> Mikael:
>
> The quality of the bugs is better higher up, however. Not merely the protein content, but the
> taste. There are some critters out near Point of Rocks, Maryland (those who live in the DC area
> will know) that emerge in the early Spring, and have a nutty woodsy taste that is absolutely
> delicious. Because they feed on tree leaves, as opposed to carrion, they tend to be found closer
> to their main food source. I'd try to stay clear of bugs that are associated with anything that
> goes "plop" or "thud," you you know what I mean.
>
> --
> --Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.
>
> "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Freewheeling" skrev...
> > > I don't think "lowness" has anything to do with the advantage unless there's something about
> > > being close to the ground that reduces turbulence.
> >
> > Actually the air is calmer the closer you get to the ground. It's that Ekman spiral thingie. ;-)
> > (vaguely remembered fluiddynamics
> course)
> >
> > However the main advantage is the higher concentrations of free proteine
> down there.
> > Yes ... flies ... you eat more flies down low than up in the air. Yummy
>
> >
> > M.

 

[Al Kubeluis]

Edd, Very impressive average speed. I agree with you that lowracers have a speed advantage over
other recumbents and uprights. Aside from streamliners, are not most, if not all, open speed records
held by riders on lowracers? Does someone know of non-streamliner bent faster than say, an M5 or
Baron? ~ Al Kubeluis ~ Bacchetta Corsa ~ Maryland ~ USA ~

"Edd Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> From 1981 to 2002 I've had a goal to ride from home to work at an average speed of 25+ MPH. Until
> 2001, I rode a Raleigh Pro and Ciocc road bikes and "Pop" Brennan track bike. In 2001, I had to
> switch to a recumbent. I then rode a Lightning P-38 with super Zzipper front fairing. On all those
> bikes, I never exceeded 23 MPH average for the 14 mile trip from Scottsdale to Phoenix, AZ (no
> hills and approx. 200 foot total drop with good road surfaces and light traffic). A month after I
> bought an Optima low Baron (with tail fairing and wheel covers) in mid-2002, I had 3 trips on the
> same route ranging from 26.1 to 26.5 MPH average (at 57 years of age). I had less than 1000 miles
> on the low racer and was/am still trying different boom distances and seat angles. I'm here to
> tell you, it is about the bike (sorry Lance, your title may be correct if you limit the bike
> variations within UCI rules, but not if you consider the bigger picture).
>
> Ride hard and ride low,
>
> Edd

 

[Dan Kluckhuhn]

It's true, they are more fun. Dan Kluckhuhn

"Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bruce:
>
> I have heard that. I don't believe it.
>
> --
> --Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.
>
>
> "Bruce Griffin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I believe that another advantage that lowracers offer is that they are close enough to the
> > ground to get in the "Ground Effect" or reduced wind velocity near the ground due to air
> > friction close to the surface.
> >
> > Obviously a big help on head wind and cross wind days along with the small frontal area.
> >
> > Lowracers are just plain more fun to ride.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [email protected] (Ridebent) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > > > I've read reports from lowracer owners that they are not getting the
> speed
> > > > gains that they had hoped for. So what's the big deal about
> lowracers, and
> > > > why do people swear by them? I will admit that the M5 attracted
coeds
> like
> > > > a magnet, which may be one very good reason to own one; but that's
not
> why I
> > > > bought a lowracer If not for speed, then why own one?
> > > >
> > > > Ed Gin is, by all reports, a bona fide speed demon on his unfaired
> Festina.
> > > > Certainly there are plenty of others who fairly smoke the track on
> their
> > > > Jesters, Barons, M5's, Zox's, Wishbones and Taifuns (did I miss
any?)
> But
> > > > for some of us, the promise of noticeable speed gains has remained
> elusive.
> > > > I'm still convinced that there are speed gains to be had; but I
can't
> figure
> > > > out the formula for speed. I has been said that different riding
> positions
> > > > require different muscle training, and that surely could explain
some
> of my
> > > > disappointing results with the M5 (I didn't ride it enough.)
> > > >
> > > > Is it that simple? Is the only advantage of lowracers in the
lowness?
> > >
> > > The advantage of lowracers is in the aerodynamics (seems obvious), but these aerodynamics are
> > > more dramatic, have a greater impact the faster you go.
> > >
> > > People accustomed to riding 12-15 mph aren't going to be doing 22-25mph just by jumping on a
> > > lowracer. I'm sure the riders you mentioned above (don't know them personally) train for speed
> > > and as a result, benefit greatly from the aerodynamics that lowracers provide.
> > >
> > > There's no magic bike that's going to dramatically boost someone's speed without the requisite
> > > physical conditioning. However, with the proper conditioning, lowracers are fast and fun
> > >
> > > Alan

 

[Harryo]

[email protected] (Edd Brady) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> I mostly ride my Optima low Baron to and from work in the Phoenix, AZ metro area. I avoid streets
> with parallel parked cars and parking lots. Other than that, I ride the same roads I used on a
> diamond frame. I act like a motor vehicle, i.e., I never pass on the right, I stop in line at
> traffic lights and stop signs, I move to the left lane to make left turns, etc. That's the way I
> rode the diamond frames, so it's no big deal. If you pass stopped traffic on the right, you will
> probably get people to run over you, because drivers of many vehicles can not see you on a low
> racer when you are alongside. I've found that they have no trouble seeing me as they approach from
> behind. When I stop, I stay behind them where they can still see me with their inside rear view
> mirror. Typically, that is still less than one vehicle length behind their bumper.

I agree completely. You should always ride any bicycle defensively and sensibly. I just take care to
so at all times on my Baron. Most of my riding is on rural roads and in two years, I have never had
a situation where I believe that motorists failed to see my lowracer because of it's low profile. I
do wear a yellow helmet, yellow, white or orange jersey and have placed reflective strips on the
back and sides of my seat.

I have ridden and do still ride in city traffic, at times, sometimes on very busy streets. I usually
try to ride with one or more other bikes, if possible, but will not hesitate to ride alone. If I
have a choice, I pick routes that minimize traffic, streets with 20-25 mph speed limits so I can
ride with the flow of traffic and avoid streets with parallel parking on the street. This is where a
lowracer will be most likely to not be seen. I have had 2 instances, on streets with parallel
parking, where cars did pull in front of me. However, I easily saw both of them approaching and had
already slowed for them before reaching the intersection. One of these instances, I was with another
rider, on a DF bike, so the driver was just plainly not looking for any bike.

I don't feel my own visibility is at hampered by the low seat position of the Baron. When I first
started riding it, I found it was pretty difficult to look behind but after I got more time on it, I
found I can pull myself more upright in the seat and look behind on either side, with no problems.
It was just a matter of getting used to it. I do use a Mirrycle mirror on the left handlebar, which
gives excellent visibility.

In summary, I don't feel I have a safety issue with riding my Baron on the roads and streets that I
frequent. However, I realize some may feel completely comfortable riding a lowracer on the road and
therefore, they probably shouldn't be doing so.

Harry Jiles

 

[Freewheeling]

Shoot, I was just out in Phoenix last week. A friend of mine was sitting in the Hotel hot tub after
his workout and was joined by Katerina Witt and Alexei Urmanov. Must have been an ice show in the
area. Sure is great weather out there!

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Edd Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote in message ?
> >
> > Where do you ride? I was thinking lowracers might have enough visibility for road riding, but
> > not for commuting in (semi)urban environment.
>
> I mostly ride my Optima low Baron to and from work in the Phoenix, AZ metro area. I avoid streets
> with parallel parked cars and parking lots. Other than that, I ride the same roads I used on a
> diamond frame. I act like a motor vehicle, i.e., I never pass on the right, I stop in line at
> traffic lights and stop signs, I move to the left lane to make left turns, etc. That's the way I
> rode the diamond frames, so it's no big deal. If you pass stopped traffic on the right, you will
> probably get people to run over you, because drivers of many vehicles can not see you on a low
> racer when you are alongside. I've found that they have no trouble seeing me as they approach from
> behind. When I stop, I stay behind them where they can still see me with their inside rear view
> mirror. Typically, that is still less than one vehicle length behind their bumper.
>
> as always, common sense is advised,
>
> Edd

 

[A&B]

Scott, Somehow that seems to all to equivocate in actual riding. One of my riding buds on a 20"
rotator seems to readily coast and stay with me on my 650c Aero. bill g

Freewheeling wrote:
>
> All else being equal, smaller wheels will be more aerodynamic while larger wheels will have less
> rolling resistance. On typical asphalt roadways, with lots of irregularities, decreased rolling
> resistance will compensate for the loss in aerodynamics.
>
> --
> --Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > B. Sanders <[email protected]> wrote:
> > : From my experience, the 406mm wheels have lower rolling resistance, too.
> I
> > : can out-coast any DF bike, with any tires, on almost any surface. It's
> very
> > : obvious in a group ride. Aero advantage + skinny, hi-pressure tires +
> small
> > : wheels = superior coasting.
> >
> > I find it rather ironic that people claim that both large and small wheels are the more
> > aerodynamically efficient in the same thread
> >
> > IME, tyres are important. Semislicks on my hybrid give a rather different, easy rolling feeling
> > from the stock semiknobs. Race bikes would be even better. Recumbents seem to have wider tyres
> > than racing DF bikes, maybe because of the small wheels, so I'm doubting the tyre advantage of
> > lowracers a bit.
> >
> > Tyres are especially important at low speeds, when the aerodynamics wither in significance. So
> > if you do long rides...
> >
> > --
> > Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/ varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Jon Meinecke]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:36:49 -0600, a&b <[email protected]> wrote:

>FreeW, You're not related to the Ewell Gibbons-Talkingtons are you?

Speaking of which, a MTB'er friend tried to "eat a pine tree" lately.

Many parts may be edible, but probably not in the manner he tried.

Jon Meinecke

 

[Dave Larrington]

Al Kubeluis wrote:

> Aside from streamliners, are not most, if not all, open speed records held by riders on lowracers?

Very likely not, as:

1. Most top low racer performances will have been set with tail fairings, at least in Europe. While
this still qualifies as "unfaired" as far as HPV racing is concerned, doubtless sniffy roadies
will say that tail fairings are Cheating.

2. Most upright records are held either by professional racers or, in the case of amateurs, those
who went on to turn pro. There are no pro recumbent racers.

> Does someone know of non-streamliner bent faster than say, an M5 or Baron?

I think this would depend to some extent on the terrain. On a flat track or velodrome, the more
reclined Dutch bikes are probably a little faster for a given power input, but throw the odd change
of gradient into the equation and something more upright but lighter, such as a Razz-Fazz, Birk or
Merlin might have the edge. Rob English's one-off Hachi might be the best of both worlds -
http://www.kingcycle.co.uk/hpvs/Hachi.html

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================