Leg muscle mass

Cycling is not a strenth sport. to get faster you have to push yourself. you say your not huffing and puffing, then your not pushing yourself hard enough. top get faster you have to ride faster.

You must not know what I'm trying to explain. At a cadence of 90 RPM, my legs give out before I can really work my aerobic system.

Anyone else?

sparknote_s said:

You must not know what I'm trying to explain. At a cadence of 90 RPM, my legs give out before I can really work my aerobic system.

Anyone else?

I know what you're saying... does it feel like you're not winded at all, when you're trying to cycle your fastest? Maybe it's because that's the maximum effort of your leg muslces, but not the max effort of your cardiovascular system. I've had the same feeling, and I think that it goes away as you get stronger. Maybe that's what you're implying by "leg muscles," and there's really only a few ways of scientifically looking at the whole thing. What I do to try and go faster when it doesn't seem like I can is really "flex out" my upper body and expend as much energy as I can right below my lactate threshold (lactate threshold means where your muscles start burning). If anyone else in here responds to this post, I'd be curious to know what methods can increase your cardio output, fitness, strength, and endurance, in the respect to this question.... because it seems to be a specific (whether intended or not) way of determining how good of a cyclist someone actually is, in certain ways. By the way, I'm reading Chris Carmichael's "Ultimate Ride" and it has very useful training techniques, even though it seems kind of murky and like more of an advertisement for his training program. Also, my speeds on the flats have increased since dec 25 of 04 when I got a cycling computer (that would have been about 4 months ago). Wearing heavy, non-cycling specific clothes my average speed on a 20 mile flat loop (meaning I hit the wind and get the wind just the same) was 18 mph. Today, I wear cycling specific clothes and ride 30+ miles at 20mph average (yes, average speed... this includes several traffic stops, rolling terrain, and overpasses)... so my speed has definitely increased. I usually cruise at 21.5-22.5 in mild wind conditions, in other words, at a heart rate of around 130-140. I've also found that I can ride a lot "harder" per say, than I used to... meaning I can expend a higher amount of effort. So I don't know how long you've been riding, but maybe this is useful for you. Lengthy response, I know, but I've made a pretty good point.

sparknote_s said:

You must not know what I'm trying to explain. At a cadence of 90 RPM, my legs give out before I can really work my aerobic system.

Anyone else?

Exactly. I think we all know what you are trying to explain.

You need to push harder. If you are not "huffing and puffing" THEN you are NOT pushing hard enough... No matter what the pain or weakness felt in your legs, you MUST push harder. Just as you can not increase your bench press by always pushing an easy/comfortable amount of weight, you can not increase your cycling performance without "huffing and puffing" and "hurting" quads...

Simply put, your legs are not strong enough yet; you MUST work them harder...

I pretty much agree.

You say "solo rides"...this is the key, IMHO. One thing that will help you is to ride in a group.

You will be amazed at how much harder you will push, and how laboured your breathing will get.

Find a group ride ASAP. And good luck. :o

I know exactly what you mean. I too always ride alone, and I usually felt this way after a long winter break at the beginning of the season. After some time I always came to a turnaround point where I was out of breath before my legs give. I now ride whenever weather permits in winter too to avoid this. If you just started riding, I suggest you just go on for a while without worrying about this. As a recreational rider, even with som amount of training through winter, I usually need a good 1000 km in the spring to start to feel some power in my legs.

Your speeds are about the same as mine. 21 mph isn't so bad depending on what kind of bike you have and how aerodynamic you are.
Your acheing quads may be due to lack of muscular endurance as opposed to lack of strength, I guess. Usually people with big leg muscles tend to get burning, pumped up sensations.
For speed you have 2 options: either go for big gears and low cadence as Ullrich and Indurain prefer or you can attempt to spin "a la Armstrong".
Personally, despite my bodybuilding background, these days I prefer to spin rather than hit big gears. My muscle endurance improves by alternating, say, climbs at high cadence even while standing.
You don't have to be strong to be fast. You do need muscle endurance, though, and you should be able to attain this by doing some high rpm work. You also need to check out your aerodynamic position on the bike and remember the wind will slow you down dramatically.
A pro cyclist can get up to well over 30 mph but they have the very best bikes money can buy, and a perfected aerodynamic posture.

sparknote_s said:

I just started riding, and on most of my solo rides I average 16 or 17 mph over rolling terrain with mild wind (10-15 mph). I'm 5' 10" 140 lbs. The thing is, I am usually never above 21 mph on the flat roads. Even when I'm just starting the ride and my legs are fresh, I just can't get very much speed. But at the speed I DO ride, I never really get winded. Meaning, I'm never huffing and puffing. So the problem is not my heart. My quads hurt though.

Now I know there is a difference between muscular endurance and muscular strength. For endurance athletes like cyclists, muscle endurance is very important. But if I can never even get to a high speed, is my STRENGTH (vs. muscle endurance) limiting me? If so, will strength increase when you ride every day, or do you really only gain strength in the off-season?

I'm asking because I want to increase my average power output on my rides. But I'm not sure if my leg endurance or leg strength is limiting me. It is definitely not my heart. Following bodybuilding principles, working a muscle group every day doesn't give it sufficient recovery time to grow. So how can I gain strength while riding every day? And is that most likely what I need to build on to get better (leg strength)?

Thanks.

sparknote_s said:

I just started riding, and on most of my solo rides I average 16 or 17 mph over rolling terrain with mild wind (10-15 mph). I'm 5' 10" 140 lbs. The thing is, I am usually never above 21 mph on the flat roads. Even when I'm just starting the ride and my legs are fresh, I just can't get very much speed. But at the speed I DO ride, I never really get winded. Meaning, I'm never huffing and puffing. So the problem is not my heart. My quads hurt though.

Now I know there is a difference between muscular endurance and muscular strength. For endurance athletes like cyclists, muscle endurance is very important. But if I can never even get to a high speed, is my STRENGTH (vs. muscle endurance) limiting me? If so, will strength increase when you ride every day, or do you really only gain strength in the off-season?

I'm asking because I want to increase my average power output on my rides. But I'm not sure if my leg endurance or leg strength is limiting me. It is definitely not my heart. Following bodybuilding principles, working a muscle group every day doesn't give it sufficient recovery time to grow. So how can I gain strength while riding every day? And is that most likely what I need to build on to get better (leg strength)?

Thanks.

Agree it's not strength that you're lacking. Instead, believe your specific cardiovascular network in and out of the cycling muscles needs improvement, as well as the mitochrondia which is the part of the muscle cell that produce the fuel under aerobic conditions. Without these aspects of muscle endurance, you really can't put out sustained power or load your heart/lungs to capacity. IE, your quads burn long before you've taxed your heart/lungs.

Believe it takes a few thousand base miles to develop the cardio-vascular network in the cycling muscles. Relax, enjoy your rides, and forget about overnight speed improvements....they don't really happen anyway. Besides, if you can average 16-17 miles in rolling terrain for any length of time, that's already a good pace. Suggest you find a club or group to ride with, and just learn to enjoy cycling.

Are your leg's burning or just feel dead? If your legs are burning then you should also be breathing heavy. If it's just that your legs feel dead then it's most likely that you're not eating enough or you're tired/overtrained. 5'10" 140lbs is very skinny. Try eating a lot of rice and pasta and drinking a lot of water.

Surely there must be some moments when you feel energetic and powerful? If there aren't then you need to eat more and rest more. And maybe get a check-up from the MD.

Your speed of 18 mph over 20 miles is decent.
Just keep on training and the speed will come. As for legs vs. heart/lungs going first, when I first started training my legs would definitely go first in longer duration training, then as I continued training my lungs/heart would go first and now my legs always go first again, seems my cardio-resp system capacity is considerably better then the extraction of oxygen locally in the working muscles. My max heartrate never exceeds 173 bpm even during a Wmax type test which I think is quite low. It was 179 last year.

Try long slow rides of 100 km (depending on your fitness) to increase the steady state oxygen uptake in your leg muscles.

Alright, thanks for the info. I didn't do any riding or cardio over the winter, and I just started again a few days ago. I'm just looking to improve where I'm lacking, because I want to do my first cat 5 race later in july or august.

Should I be riding 6 days / week? That's what I'm planning on, but don't want to overtrain. Should I also vary like one day low cadence, one day higher cadence, hills one day, etc?

Thanks again.

sparknote_s said:

Alright, thanks for the info. I didn't do any riding or cardio over the winter, and I just started again a few days ago. I'm just looking to improve where I'm lacking, because I want to do my first cat 5 race later in july or august.

Should I be riding 6 days / week? That's what I'm planning on, but don't want to overtrain. Should I also vary like one day low cadence, one day higher cadence, hills one day, etc?

Thanks again.

I very surprised no one has mentioned plain old leg spead so far. If you train at 16mph+ avg on rolling terrain then you will NEVER have leg speed, no matter how much base you do, how hard you train, you will never get fast legs. Leg speed comes from cruising at about 14 - 15 mph on the flat then sprinting in short bursts. If you only train at one pace (effort wise) you will only ever race at one pace. IMHO if you want your legs to catch up on your CV system follow the age old cycle recipe, Base (done at slow speed) then quality (done at varying intensity) then speed work. I may be wrong but I get the impression you go out and ride as fast as you can every ride and that average speed is important to you.....this is cool for rec riders but it is a bad thing for racers

sparknote_s said:

I just started riding, and on most of my solo rides I average 16 or 17 mph over rolling terrain with mild wind (10-15 mph). I'm 5' 10" 140 lbs. The thing is, I am usually never above 21 mph on the flat roads. Even when I'm just starting the ride and my legs are fresh, I just can't get very much speed. But at the speed I DO ride, I never really get winded. Meaning, I'm never huffing and puffing. So the problem is not my heart. My quads hurt though.

I used to have just the same problem - it seemed my cardio fitness far exceeded my leg muscle fitness. I found that by increasing my pedal cadence in a slightly lighter gear I could increase my cardio effort, while 'saving my legs.'

By spinning faster you can increase your speed and get yourself huffing and puffing without your legs feeling like they are going to give out on you. By increasing your speed, your power output will also be higher and your legs will develop as well, but that just takes time. You should also be able to ride longer by working your lungs and taking care of your legs, if distance riding is your thing.

Good luck.

Ok well I just got batteries for my old heart rate monitor, so I can use that now. What HR zone should I be in to build a base? And is this what every ride should be like for base? And how long is base-building?

sparknote_s said:

Ok well I just got batteries for my old heart rate monitor, so I can use that now. What HR zone should I be in to build a base? And is this what every ride should be like for base? And how long is base-building?

If you want to ride according to heart rate and by a periodized schedule, you should look into getting a book to help you come up with a customized schedule. The Training Bible, by J. Friel, is used by many riders and quite effective. Alternately, you could look into Chris Carmichael's training programs, the Lance Armstrong program, etc.
To answer your question, the Base Period is generally riding in zones 1 and 2 most of the time, with perhaps sprinting ("speed skills"😉 once a week and some type of tempo work once or twice a week. The Base Period can last anywhere from 4 up to 12 weeks. After that, you would progress through later periods, adding and upping the intensity of workouts. In any case, improving leg strength and speed takes a commitment to hard work and consistency over a long period of time. There are NO short cuts!

Good Luck!

5'10" 140lbs seems to be standard for pro-riders. There are many 6 feet 2 pro riders who weigh only 150 or less. I'm the same height as quoted here but consider myself totally obese at just under 200 pounds.
I wouldn't advise him to try and gain weight to improve performance since his bone structure could be quite light so, in theory, he could be carrying sufficient body mass for peak performance.
The only cases I've seen where I feel beginning cyclists should put weight on is when I bump into Chinese students in my area who seem incredibly skinny for their height.
But 140 pounds seems fine to me for a serious cyclist - especially for a climber.

andrello said:

Are your leg's burning or just feel dead? If your legs are burning then you should also be breathing heavy. If it's just that your legs feel dead then it's most likely that you're not eating enough or you're tired/overtrained. 5'10" 140lbs is very skinny. Try eating a lot of rice and pasta and drinking a lot of water.

Surely there must be some moments when you feel energetic and powerful? If there aren't then you need to eat more and rest more. And maybe get a check-up from the MD.

I always had the opposite problem. My leg strength and durability is excellent and my legs never let me down normally. However, fitness is my weak point and I tend to gasp more than I should do.

frenchyge said:

I used to have just the same problem - it seemed my cardio fitness far exceeded my leg muscle fitness. I found that by increasing my pedal cadence in a slightly lighter gear I could increase my cardio effort, while 'saving my legs.'

By spinning faster you can increase your speed and get yourself huffing and puffing without your legs feeling like they are going to give out on you. By increasing your speed, your power output will also be higher and your legs will develop as well, but that just takes time. You should also be able to ride longer by working your lungs and taking care of your legs, if distance riding is your thing.

Good luck.

sparknote_s said:

Ok well I just got batteries for my old heart rate monitor, so I can use that now. What HR zone should I be in to build a base? And is this what every ride should be like for base? And how long is base-building?

The guys are posting good tips here. Agree keeping your cadence up to 90 rpm or higher would be the best way to develop aerobic endurance in your legs.

Believe most people would say do endurance rides at around 65-75% of your maxHR. Below that is considered "recovery zone", and much above that gets into the lactate threshold region where your body starts using anaerobic metabolism to supplement the aerobic power. Riding at 75% will give you all the aerobic benefits without the stress (need for recovery) that more intensity brings on.

If you just started riding for the season, I'd only do base endurance rides now. Concentrate on building up mileage week-by-week for the next 6 weeks. I'd start putting some intensity into your training around end of May and take two months to prepare for racing. That's my .02 anyway......lots of different approaches can work.

Carrera said:

I always had the opposite problem. My leg strength and durability is excellent and my legs never let me down normally. However, fitness is my weak point and I tend to gasp more than I should do.

With a body-building background, that's not terribly surprising. Me? I'm a runner turned cyclist in the last few years. 🙂

I'm just now getting to the point where I feel I can match gears with the other guys my size (after ~5 yrs).