Leg Curls. Alternative exercises

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm starting too have more and more problems with my leg curls, especially
lying flat on my stomach. It seems I just cannot keep proper form and lift
my butt up in the air at the end of the movement. This I believe is the
cause of a pain in the small of my hip (?) Ie just above and in front of
my
hipbone. Possibly the knee flexor or something muscle going all the way
from
beneath the knee along my thigh past my hip and up to the low back.
Something like that anyway. People have been telling me this and I know
zilch. The only thing I know is I can't put the weights on that I'd like
to.
I'm no Hercules but I normally use most of the plate stack on a 6RM.
I do standing, sitting and lying down leg curls.

Either I need to learn how to do them without hurting this muscle.
Learn a complimentary exercise that strengthens this flexor so that it can
handle my curls.
Find an altogether new set of exercises that will work the same muscles.

On two leg days I currently do DL, SLDL, squat, sumo squat, hack lift, leg
press ( machine), leg extension machine, donkey press, sitting and
standing
calf press, dumbbell lunges. Ok DL is on my lower back day 😉 This was
mainly to avoid suggestions of exercises I already do.

Anybody have any ideas how to work myself out of this? I usually lift 4
days
a week and I'm 55 yo.

Sounds like you're getting plenty of leg exercise already - why not just
drop the exercise that's giving you grief for now, and revisit it in a few
weeks if you feel the need?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the quantity and variety of exercises
you perform is not necessarily related to progress in strength or size. A
few well-chosen exercises done with good form can be all anyone needs.
"Leg day", such as is, for me involves either SQ or DL, not both, followed
by one assistance exercise (usually one-legged SQ or DL), followed by
kettlebell swings, and that's it. I'm not suggesting you follow my program,
just that many people do far fewer exercises than you do, and that you might
find you do better with fewer exercises and perhaps a different selection of
weight, sets, reps, etc., on the exercises you choose to keep.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

I would stop the exercise that hurts, or reduce the weight for that
exercise to a point where it no longer hurts- then gradually increase
the weight. This should allow you to increase your weight overtime
back to what you were previously lifting- but this time "pain free".

Also- Given your age and the number of leg exercises you are doing;
Overtraining is a probability. If you are insisting on doing all these
exercises maybe you should cycle the intensity a bit more than you
already may be doing. Out of 4 leg days--- Do one for endurance (high
reps/sets with light weight), One for speed (light reps done
ballistically), One day for Strength (low reps/sets with heavy weight),
and one maintenance day with moderate weight and moderate sets/reps.
"Moderate" is subjective- it depends on what your normal routine is.

Dan Lagerstedt
Certified Personal Trainer
http://www.fitnessgenerator.com/trainerhome.asp?uname=newenglandcft

Per Elmsäter said:

I'm starting too have more and more problems with my leg curls, especially
lying flat on my stomach. It seems I just cannot keep proper form and lift
my butt up in the air at the end of the movement. This I believe is the
cause of a pain in the small of my hip (?) Ie just above and in front of my
hipbone. Possibly the knee flexor or something muscle going all the way from
beneath the knee along my thigh past my hip and up to the low back.
Something like that anyway. People have been telling me this and I know
zilch. The only thing I know is I can't put the weights on that I'd like to.
I'm no Hercules but I normally use most of the plate stack on a 6RM.
I do standing, sitting and lying down leg curls.

Either I need to learn how to do them without hurting this muscle.
Learn a complimentary exercise that strengthens this flexor so that it can
handle my curls.
Find an altogether new set of exercises that will work the same muscles.

On two leg days I currently do DL, SLDL, squat, sumo squat, hack lift, leg
press ( machine), leg extension machine, donkey press, sitting and standing
calf press, dumbbell lunges. Ok DL is on my lower back day 😉 This was
mainly to avoid suggestions of exercises I already do.

Anybody have any ideas how to work myself out of this? I usually lift 4 days
a week and I'm 55 yo.

Stop doing so many exercises. Stop doing a split routine. Work your legs 2-3
times a week instead of once. Drop the painful exercise.

T said:

Per Elmsäter said:

I'm starting too have more and more problems with my leg curls, especially
lying flat on my stomach. It seems I just cannot keep proper form and lift
my butt up in the air at the end of the movement. This I believe is the
cause of a pain in the small of my hip (?) Ie just above and in front of my
hipbone. Possibly the knee flexor or something muscle going all the way from
beneath the knee along my thigh past my hip and up to the low back.
Something like that anyway. People have been telling me this and I know
zilch. The only thing I know is I can't put the weights on that I'd like to.
I'm no Hercules but I normally use most of the plate stack on a 6RM.
I do standing, sitting and lying down leg curls.

Either I need to learn how to do them without hurting this muscle.
Learn a complimentary exercise that strengthens this flexor so that it can
handle my curls.
Find an altogether new set of exercises that will work the same muscles.

On two leg days I currently do DL, SLDL, squat, sumo squat, hack lift, leg
press ( machine), leg extension machine, donkey press, sitting and standing
calf press, dumbbell lunges. Ok DL is on my lower back day 😉 This was
mainly to avoid suggestions of exercises I already do.

Anybody have any ideas how to work myself out of this? I usually lift 4 days
a week and I'm 55 yo.

Stop doing so many exercises. Stop doing a split routine. Work your legs 2-3
times a week instead of once. Drop the painful exercise.

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only reason I
do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5 will no
longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's Paradox, DLs and
SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as well as leg curls.

Steve Freides said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm starting too have more and more problems with my leg curls,
especially lying flat on my stomach. It seems I just cannot keep

Sounds like you're getting plenty of leg exercise already - why not
just drop the exercise that's giving you grief for now, and revisit
it in a few weeks if you feel the need?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the quantity and variety of
exercises you perform is not necessarily related to progress in
strength or size. A few well-chosen exercises done with good form
can be all anyone needs. "Leg day", such as is, for me involves
either SQ or DL, not both, followed by one assistance exercise
(usually one-legged SQ or DL), followed by kettlebell swings, and
that's it. I'm not suggesting you follow my program, just that many
people do far fewer exercises than you do, and that you might find
you do better with fewer exercises and perhaps a different selection
of weight, sets, reps, etc., on the exercises you choose to keep.

Thanks for your input Steve. I already follow your recommendations
throughout the cycling season. I do 2*5s of DL, Benchpress, very wide grip
barbell biceps curl and usually some chins to end it off. First set as heavy
as I can and the second set at 90%. This I do as often as I get a chance.
Sometimes once a week and sometimes 6 times a week. Usually takes me about
30 minutes and I often start my training rides this way. Pistols and
attempts at one armed pushups when there is no gym handy.

Once Cycling season ends I go back to lifting according to non Party
standards. Ie I try to work my whole body through by doing each exercise
once a week. Hence I haven't done any legcurls all summer and when I just
recently started back I could feel I was going to have the same problems
this winter again. I was down to 35% of the weights I was doing before
summer. During last winter I kept going down constantly with the weights on
the leg curls but as soon as I started back hammering away I could feel this
muscle start protesting. I kind of have it under control. Was just hoping
maybe somebody could give me another angle to work this from.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Personal Trainer said:

I would stop the exercise that hurts, or reduce the weight for that
exercise to a point where it no longer hurts- then gradually increase
the weight. This should allow you to increase your weight overtime
back to what you were previously lifting- but this time "pain free".

Also- Given your age and the number of leg exercises you are doing;
Overtraining is a probability. If you are insisting on doing all
these exercises maybe you should cycle the intensity a bit more than
you already may be doing. Out of 4 leg days--- Do one for endurance
(high reps/sets with light weight), One for speed (light reps done
ballistically), One day for Strength (low reps/sets with heavy
weight), and one maintenance day with moderate weight and moderate
sets/reps. "Moderate" is subjective- it depends on what your normal
routine is.

Maybe I was a little unclear. Trying not to put too much info in my post I
forgot to say that I do two legdays a week and those are the exercises that
I do. On the other two days I work the rest of my body.
Overtraining is not a problem. I've come to this quantity over 3 years.
Starting my forth now. I always take a week completely off every twelve
weeks or if my body tells me to etc. I'll drop the weights on any exercise
as soon as it feels right. I never go to failure in my sets. I'll change the
intensity and weights over the winter season. Ie I start out with lighter
weights and more reps, as the winter progresses I'll work myself up to max
weights and few reps 3-5. At the end of winter I'll work myself back down to
lower weights and more reps.
I'm pretty sure this problem has more to do with losing form as the weights
get heavier.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

T said:

Per Elmsäter said:

Anybody have any ideas how to work myself out of this? I usually
lift 4 days a week and I'm 55 yo.

Stop doing so many exercises. Stop doing a split routine. Work your
legs 2-3 times a week instead of once. Drop the painful exercise.

I do work my legs twice a week. and the exercises I described are balanced
out over two days.
I don't mind dropping the painful exercise as long as I find something else
to replace it with.
DL and SLDL will of course work the hamstrings but I already do these. Also
it seems like the curls are working the hamstrings kind of the opposite
direction.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

JMW said:

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only reason I
do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5 will no
longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's Paradox, DLs and
SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as well as leg curls.

See my reply to T.
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW said:

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only reason I
do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5 will no
longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's Paradox, DLs and
SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as well as leg curls.

See my reply to T.

I did. Unless you have some specific proprioception issues, the
advantage of working your hamstrings in "kind of the opposite
direction" is mostly illusory.

JMW said:

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW said:

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only
reason I do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5
will no longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's
Paradox, DLs and SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as
well as leg curls.

See my reply to T.

I did. Unless you have some specific proprioception issues, the
advantage of working your hamstrings in "kind of the opposite
direction" is mostly illusory.

How then is that?
When curling I am pulling the weights up with my hamstring and my calfs (
spelling ?).
When DL ing I'm pushing with my hamstrings.

What the heck is proprioception? ;-)

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Per Elmsäter said:

T said:

Per Elmsäter said:

Anybody have any ideas how to work myself out of this? I usually
lift 4 days a week and I'm 55 yo.

Stop doing so many exercises. Stop doing a split routine. Work your
legs 2-3 times a week instead of once. Drop the painful exercise.

I do work my legs twice a week. and the exercises I described are balanced
out over two days.

Good.

Quoted message said:

I don't mind dropping the painful exercise as long as I find something else
to replace it with.

Why do you want to replace it with something?

Quoted message said:

DL and SLDL will of course work the hamstrings

Squats, too.

Quoted message said:

but I already do these.

That was sort of my point. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Also it seems like the curls are working the hamstrings kind of the opposite
direction.

Kinda. So?

Okay, okay; *if* you insist on replacing it with something, how about reverse
hypers?

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW said:

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW wrote:
>
> For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only
> reason I do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5
> will no longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's
> Paradox, DLs and SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as
> well as leg curls.

See my reply to T.

I did. Unless you have some specific proprioception issues, the
advantage of working your hamstrings in "kind of the opposite
direction" is mostly illusory.

How then is that?
When curling I am pulling the weights up with my hamstring and my calfs (
spelling ?).
When DL ing I'm pushing with my hamstrings.

No. Since when do muscles "push" by contracting?

You need to do some reading. First check an anatomy text for a
graphic image of the attachment points of the hamstrings. Hint: They
are above the hip joint and below the knee joint. That means that
same muscle group extends the hip and flexes the knee. Then read
about Lombard's Paradox.

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/lombard.htm

The paradox is that the same muscle cannot contract at one end and lay
dormant at the other. So how do we stand and perform squat lifts,
when the same muscle must relax to extend the knee while contracting
to extend the hip? Nobody knows absolutely for sure, but it probably
involves highly coordinated rate coding of fibers in both the
hamstrings and their antagonists, which is how most movement works,
anyway. Which brings us to ...

Quoted message said:

What the heck is proprioception? ;-)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proprioception

T said:

Okay, okay; *if* you insist on replacing it with something, how about reverse
hypers?

Somewhat less effective for hamstrings than for glutes.

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only reason I
do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5 will no
longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's Paradox, DLs and
SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as well as leg curls.

I do seated leg curls for a different reason. I have an old injury and must
warm up the area thoroughly. But I don't use any heavy weights or anything.
Once blood gets in the area I am good to go for other exercises.

JMW said:

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW said:

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> JMW wrote:
>>
>> For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only
>> reason I do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my
>> L4-L5 will no longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's
>> Paradox, DLs and SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as
>> well as leg curls.
>
> See my reply to T.

I did. Unless you have some specific proprioception issues, the
advantage of working your hamstrings in "kind of the opposite
direction" is mostly illusory.

How then is that?
When curling I am pulling the weights up with my hamstring and my
calfs ( spelling ?).
When DL ing I'm pushing with my hamstrings.

No. Since when do muscles "push" by contracting?

`let's look at a pedal stroke one a bicycle where the foot is attached to
the pedal via so called clipless system. When pushing the pedal down I am
using the hamstrings and the glutes mainly, pretty much like in a DL. The
quads are probably involved in the early part of the "push". When pulling
the pedal back up I am using the hamstrings again but this time the movement
resembles the leg curl a lot more than a DL. Specificity is what I'm after.
I'm just trying to mimic the the pedaling of a bicycle as much as possible.
before you tell me to go practice strength on the bike, I do. Probably
another 8 hours a week in the winter off season.

Quoted message said:

You need to do some reading. First check an anatomy text for a
graphic image of the attachment points of the hamstrings. Hint: They
are above the hip joint and below the knee joint. That means that
same muscle group extends the hip and flexes the knee. Then read
about Lombard's Paradox.

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/lombard.htm

Cool. This could maybe explain my problem to start out with. When bending my
knee as in a leg curl I have a hard time not flexing my hip also, especially
when loading on some weights. Maybe I have to check out how propriocepitated
I am 😉

Quoted message said:

The paradox is that the same muscle cannot contract at one end and lay
dormant at the other. So how do we stand and perform squat lifts,
when the same muscle must relax to extend the knee while contracting
to extend the hip? Nobody knows absolutely for sure, but it probably
involves highly coordinated rate coding of fibers in both the
hamstrings and their antagonists, which is how most movement works,
anyway. Which brings us to ...

Quoted message said:

What the heck is proprioception? ;-)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proprioception

Couldn't follow this link but I googled it and understand. Dang I've learned
at least two new things today 😉 Thanks.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Lee Michaels said:

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only reason
I do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my L4-L5 will no
longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's Paradox, DLs and
SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as well as leg curls.

I do seated leg curls for a different reason. I have an old injury
and must warm up the area thoroughly. But I don't use any heavy
weights or anything. Once blood gets in the area I am good to go for
other exercises.

Hmmmm.. Maybe I need to do a warm-up set on these exercises? I've already
done my warm-ups earlier and kinda just lunge right into these.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

T said:

Per Elmsäter said:

I don't mind dropping the painful exercise as long as I find
something else to replace it with.

Why do you want to replace it with something?

Well, I gotta do something when I'm at the gym, can't oogle birds the whole
time 😉
Seriously I want to work my legs as much as I can. If that would mean doing
DLs twice a week instead of once, fine but I wanna do something.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also it seems like the curls are working the hamstrings kind of the
opposite direction.

Kinda. So?

Okay, okay; *if* you insist on replacing it with something, how about
reverse hypers?

Interesting. I take it you mean this exercise
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/LVReverseHyperextension.html

It may effect the gluteus more as JMW also mentions. However it seems that
it might also strengthen my hip flexor and might be worth a try.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW said:

Per Elmsäter said:

JMW wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> JMW wrote:
>>>
>>> For once, everyone pretty much agrees on something. The only
>>> reason I do leg curls is because the connective tissues in my
>>> L4-L5 will no longer allow for heavy deadlifts. Due to Lombard's
>>> Paradox, DLs and SLDLs will develop your hamstrings every bit as
>>> well as leg curls.
>>
>> See my reply to T.
>
> I did. Unless you have some specific proprioception issues, the
> advantage of working your hamstrings in "kind of the opposite
> direction" is mostly illusory.

How then is that?
When curling I am pulling the weights up with my hamstring and my
calfs ( spelling ?).
When DL ing I'm pushing with my hamstrings.

No. Since when do muscles "push" by contracting?

`let's look at a pedal stroke one a bicycle where the foot is attached to
the pedal via so called clipless system. When pushing the pedal down I am
using the hamstrings and the glutes mainly, pretty much like in a DL. The
quads are probably involved in the early part of the "push". When pulling
the pedal back up I am using the hamstrings again but this time the movement
resembles the leg curl a lot more than a DL. Specificity is what I'm after.
I'm just trying to mimic the the pedaling of a bicycle as much as possible.
before you tell me to go practice strength on the bike, I do. Probably
another 8 hours a week in the winter off season.

In this scenario, the hamstrings never push. Muscles do not push;
they pull. During the downstroke, the hamstrings pull to extend the
hip; during the upstroke, they pull to flex the knee. See below.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You need to do some reading. First check an anatomy text for a
graphic image of the attachment points of the hamstrings. Hint: They
are above the hip joint and below the knee joint. That means that
same muscle group extends the hip and flexes the knee. Then read
about Lombard's Paradox.

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/lombard.htm

Cool. This could maybe explain my problem to start out with. When bending my
knee as in a leg curl I have a hard time not flexing my hip also, especially
when loading on some weights. Maybe I have to check out how propriocepitated
I am 😉

Quoted message said:

The paradox is that the same muscle cannot contract at one end and lay
dormant at the other. So how do we stand and perform squat lifts,
when the same muscle must relax to extend the knee while contracting
to extend the hip? Nobody knows absolutely for sure, but it probably
involves highly coordinated rate coding of fibers in both the
hamstrings and their antagonists, which is how most movement works,
anyway. Which brings us to ...

Quoted message said:

What the heck is proprioception? ;-)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proprioception

Couldn't follow this link but I googled it and understand. Dang I've learned
at least two new things today 😉 Thanks.

Glad I could help. An excellent book for graphic images and
explanations of the relevant anatomy in exercise movement is "Strength
Training Anatomy" by Frederic Delavier:

http://tinyurl.com/78qcy

Very straightforward, well illustrated, and not highly technical.

Per Elmsäter said:

T said:

Per Elmsäter said:

I don't mind dropping the painful exercise as long as I find
something else to replace it with.

Why do you want to replace it with something?

Well, I gotta do something when I'm at the gym, can't ogle birds the whole
time 😉
Seriously I want to work my legs as much as I can. If that would mean doing
DLs twice a week instead of once, fine but I wanna do something.

www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/80
www.dragondoor.com/hardstyle/news/archives/2005/04/the_russian_squ.html
www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/81

Have fun. ;-)