Lecithin / sepsis

Iron is bacteria food? Is it more likely that folk iron
anemic can't fight off infection as well as those with
normal iron stores?

Quoted message said:

Since iron feeds infection .. and since lecithin decreases
the absorption of iron .. this study seems to give credence
to the use of iron reduction in sepsis.

<<snip>> Lecithin therapy may be a useful adjuvant therapy
in patients with severe sepsis. <<snip>>

Intensive Care Med. 2004 Mar 26 [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles, Links

Effects of polyenylphosphatidylcholine on cytokines,
nitrite/nitrate levels, antioxidant activity and lipid
peroxidation in rats with sepsis.

Demirbilek S, Ersoy MO, Demirbilek S, Karaman A, Akin M,
Bayraktar M, Bayraktar
N.

Department of Anesthesiology and Reanimation, Medical
School of Inonu University, 44315, Malatya, Turkey.

OBJECTIVES. To determine the effect of pretreatment with
polyenylphosphatidylcholine (lecithin, PPC) on plasma
levels of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin
(IL)-6, IL-10, total nitrite/nitrate (NOx), and tissue
levels of superoxide dismutase (SOD) and malondialdehyde
(MDA) in septic rats. DESIGN. Prospective, randomized,
controlled animal study. SETTING. University laboratory.
SUBJECTS. Forty-five Spraque-Dawley rats were divided into
three groups: group C, sham-operated; group S, sepsis; and
group P, sepsis pretreated with PPC. INTERVENTIONS. Rats
were made septic by cecal ligation and puncture (CLP).
Group P rats were treated with PPC (100 mg/day orally) for
10 days before sepsis. Twenty-four hours later CLP, plasma
concentrations of TNF-alpha, IL-6 and IL-10 and plasma
levels of NOx were measured. SOD and MDA were determined in
liver, lung and heart homogenates. MEASUREMENTS AND MAIN
RESULTS. All rats in group P survived during the 24-h
observation time after CLP, whereas survival rate in group
S was 66.7% (10/15; P<0.05). PPC significantly reduced
plasma levels of TNF-alpha ( P=0.006), IL-6 ( P=0.007), IL-
10 ( P=0.016), NOx ( P<0.001), and tissue levels of MDA (
P<0.001) in group P with respect to in group S. Tissue
levels of SOD significantly increased in group P when
compared with group S ( P<0.001). CONCLUSIONS. These
results show that PPC pretreatment exerts cumulative
effects in decreasing the levels of cytokines, NOx, and
tissue MDA concentrations, with a concomitant increase in
survival in septic rats. Lecithin therapy may be a useful
adjuvant therapy in controlling of the excessive production
of the inflammatory cytokines in patients with severe
sepsis. DESCRIPTOR. SIRS/sepsis, experimental studies

PMID: 15045164 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

-----------------------------------------------------------
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------

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Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Lecithin / sepsis
From: [email hidden]
Date: 3/27/2004 3:31 PM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Iron is bacteria food? Is it more likely that folk iron
anemic can't fight off infection as well as those with
normal iron stores?

If you don't even know the basics of iron and infection ..
why the fk are you even attempting to comment ?

You are just a fkg loserrrrrrr ..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since iron feeds infection .. and since lecithin decreases
the absorption of iron .. this study seems to give
credence to the use of iron reduction in sepsis.

<<snip>> Lecithin therapy may be a useful adjuvant therapy
in patients with severe sepsis. <<snip>>

Intensive Care Med. 2004 Mar 26 [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles,

Links

Quoted message said:

Effects of polyenylphosphatidylcholine on cytokines,
nitrite/nitrate levels, antioxidant activity and lipid
peroxidation in rats with sepsis.

Demirbilek S, Ersoy MO, Demirbilek S, Karaman A, Akin M,
Bayraktar M,

Bayraktar

Quoted message said:

N.

Department of Anesthesiology and Reanimation, Medical
School of Inonu University, 44315, Malatya, Turkey.

OBJECTIVES. To determine the effect of pretreatment with
polyenylphosphatidylcholine (lecithin, PPC) on plasma
levels of tumor

necrosis

Quoted message said:

factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin (IL)-6, IL-10, total
nitrite/nitrate (NOx),

and

Quoted message said:

tissue levels of superoxide dismutase (SOD) and
malondialdehyde (MDA) in

septic

Quoted message said:

rats. DESIGN. Prospective, randomized, controlled animal
study. SETTING. University laboratory. SUBJECTS. Forty-
five Spraque-Dawley rats were divided into three groups:
group C, sham-operated; group S, sepsis; and group P,

sepsis

Quoted message said:

pretreated with PPC. INTERVENTIONS. Rats were made septic
by cecal ligation

and

Quoted message said:

puncture (CLP). Group P rats were treated with PPC (100
mg/day orally) for

10

Quoted message said:

days before sepsis. Twenty-four hours later CLP, plasma
concentrations of TNF-alpha, IL-6 and IL-10 and plasma
levels of NOx were measured. SOD and

MDA

Quoted message said:

were determined in liver, lung and heart homogenates.
MEASUREMENTS AND MAIN RESULTS. All rats in group P
survived during the 24-h observation time after CLP,
whereas survival rate in group S was 66.7% (10/15;
P<0.05). PPC significantly reduced plasma levels of TNF-
alpha ( P=0.006), IL-6 (

P=0.007),

Quoted message said:

IL-10 ( P=0.016), NOx ( P<0.001), and tissue levels of MDA
( P<0.001) in

group

Quoted message said:

P with respect to in group S. Tissue levels of SOD
significantly increased

in

Quoted message said:

group P when compared with group S ( P<0.001).
CONCLUSIONS. These results

show

Quoted message said:

that PPC pretreatment exerts cumulative effects in
decreasing the levels of cytokines, NOx, and tissue MDA
concentrations, with a concomitant increase

in

Quoted message said:

survival in septic rats. Lecithin therapy may be a useful
adjuvant therapy

in

Quoted message said:

controlling of the excessive production of the
inflammatory cytokines in patients with severe sepsis.
DESCRIPTOR. SIRS/sepsis, experimental studies

PMID: 15045164 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------
------

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<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Iron is bacteria food? Is it more likely that folk iron
anemic can't fight off infection as well as those with
normal iron stores?

Well, as Satan made iron, and as bacteria are bad, perhaps
the two go together ?

MB

The abstract didn't say iron is bacteria food, that was your
unsupported statement, it might do something but does
bacteria eat it? You posted one abstract which iron
discoraged the adhesion of bacteria, sounds like iron might
discourage bacteria. If someone is less able to fight off
disease for being iron anemic, will bacteria be more
aggressive or less in them?

Quoted message said:

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote Since iron feeds
infection .. and since lecithin decreases the absorption

of

Quoted message said:

iron .. this study seems to give credence to the use of
iron reduction in sepsis.

... What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured
anyone's ferritin before and after long-term
supplementation of lecithin?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The abstract didn't say iron is bacteria food, that was
your unsupported statement

Hardly unsubstantiated if God told him ;o)

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Lecithin / sepsis

Quoted message said:

Date: 3/27/2004 7:56 PM Mountain Standard Time Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote Since iron feeds
infection .. and since lecithin decreases the absorption

of

Quoted message said:

iron .. this study seems to give credence to the use of
iron reduction in sepsis.

... What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured anyone's
ferritin before and after long-term supplementation of
lecithin?

J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2973S-7S. Related Articles, Links

Influence of vegetable protein sources on trace element and
mineral bioavailability.

Hurrell RF.

Institute of Food Science ETHZ, Laboratory of Human
Nutrition, CH-8803 Ruschlikon, Switzerland.
[email hidden]

Vegetable protein sources are often mixed with cereals for
complementary feeding. Both contain high levels of phytic
acid, which can inhibit trace element and mineral
absorption. In adults, phytic acid has been reported to
inhibit the absorption of iron, zinc, calcium and manganese
but not copper. There are far fewer studies in infants.
Phytic acid is a strong inhibitor of iron absorption in both
infants and adults, but its influence on zinc absorption in
infants seems to be modest and perhaps most important in
children recovering from infection. The influence of phytic
acid on calcium and magnesium absorption would seem of minor
importance. Because iron and zinc deficiencies are
widespread in infants and young children in developing
countries, the bioavailability of iron and zinc from
complementary food is a major concern. Iron absorption may
be as low as 2-3% from porridge based on whole-grain cereals
and legumes (phytic acid approximately 1 g/100 g) even in
iron-deficient subjects. Decreasing phytic acid by 90% (
approximately 100
mg/100 g dried product) would be expected to increase
absorption about twofold and complete degradation perhaps
fivefold or more. More modest reductions in phytic acid
content may not usefully improve iron absorption.
Complete enzymatic degradation of phytic acid is
recommended. If this is not possible, it is recommended
that the molar ratio of phytic acid to iron in an iron-
fortified food be <1, preferably <0.5. At these low
levels of phytic acid (20-30 mg/100 g dried product),
zinc absorption should be satisfactory.

Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12949395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
------

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The abstract doesn't support your assertion. It does show
however why veggie only diets sometimes need iron as a
suppliment and/or an increase of vit c to bring iron
absorbtion back ut to normal levels to avoid disease and
disorders of iron anemia.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

iron .. this study seems to give credence to the use of
iron reduction in sepsis.

... What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured anyone's
ferritin before and after long-term supplementation of
lecithin?

J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2973S-7S. Related Articles, Links

Influence of vegetable protein sources on trace element and
mineral bioavailability.

Hurrell RF.

Institute of Food Science ETHZ, Laboratory of Human
Nutrition, CH-8803 Ruschlikon, Switzerland.
[email hidden]

Vegetable protein sources are often mixed with cereals for
complementary feeding. Both contain high levels of phytic
acid, which can inhibit trace element and mineral
absorption. In adults, phytic acid has been reported to
inhibit the absorption of iron, zinc, calcium and manganese
but not copper. There are far fewer studies in infants.
Phytic acid is a strong inhibitor of iron absorption in
both infants and adults, but its influence on zinc
absorption in infants seems to be modest and perhaps most
important in children recovering from infection. The
influence of phytic acid on calcium and magnesium
absorption would seem of minor importance. Because iron and
zinc deficiencies are widespread in infants and young
children in developing countries, the bioavailability of
iron and zinc from complementary food is a major concern.
Iron absorption may be as low as 2-3% from porridge based
on whole-grain cereals and legumes (phytic acid
approximately 1 g/100 g) even in iron-deficient subjects.
Decreasing phytic acid by 90% ( approximately 100
mg/100 g dried product) would be expected to increase
absorption about twofold and complete degradation
perhaps fivefold or more. More modest reductions in
phytic acid content may not usefully improve iron
absorption. Complete enzymatic degradation of phytic
acid is recommended. If this is not possible, it is
recommended that the molar ratio of phytic acid to iron
in an iron-fortified food be <1, preferably <0.5. At
these low levels of phytic acid (20-30 mg/100 g dried
product), zinc absorption should be satisfactory.

Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12949395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-----------------------------------------------------------
---------------
------

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pages.ivillage.commanisaherbivoreOpen ↗ DEAD
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"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Lecithin / sepsis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Date: 3/27/2004 7:56 PM Mountain Standard Time Message-
id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote Since iron feeds
infection .. and since lecithin decreases the

absorption

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

iron .. this study seems to give credence to the use of
iron reduction

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sepsis.

... What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured
anyone's ferritin before and after long-term
supplementation of lecithin?

Quoted message said:

J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2973S-7S. Related Articles, Links
snip Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12949395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I read that as "No", don't you?

MB

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The abstract doesn't support your assertion.

None of them ever do. Don't deter him in the slightest
though, does it ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured
anyone's ferritin before and after long-term
supplementation of lecithin?

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote... snip... ... In
adults, phytic acid has been reported to inhibit the
absorption of iron, zinc, calcium and manganese but not
copper.... snip

... The above is the essence of your claim that lecithin
decreases iron absorption, however you are mixing up the
action of phytic acid with lecithin.

FYI, lecithin actually *increases* iron absorption through
two separate phosphate mechanisms. In the first one,
phosphorus inhibits zinc and calcium absorption, although
this only takes place at a higher intake (low phosphorus
*supports* calcium uptake). Both, calcium and zinc are iron
antagonists, so reduced levels
- by the action of phosphorus - allow for better iron
absorption.

Secondly, phosphorus provides an acid environment, which in
turn also supports iron absorption. If you use choline
instead, you have the potential of decreasing iron
absorption because it creates a more alkaline environment
(i.e. it increases sodium retention), which in turn supports
manganese uptake. So in essence, lecithin (acidic effect)
supports iron, but decreases manganese uptake, while choline
(alkaline effect) decreases iron, but increases manganese
absorption. You may find it interesting that iron raises
sodium levels, while manganese raises phosphate levels -
which is sort of a built-in "braking effect" to prevent
super absorption of either mineral.

Quoted message said:

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message I suppose
the above is .. theoretical .. ?

Not for me, as I have done many clinical trials on
nutritional interactions such as the one discussed.

Quoted message said:

The article I included is NOT the article I wished to
include .. but .. since I cannot seem to find the article
which offhandedly .. addressed the issue of lecithin
decreasing iron absorption .. I'll have to keep my eyes
open for it ..

In response to sepsis, it is quite normal to see reduced
serum iron and increased copper levels (which have anti-
inflammatory properties), independent of adding or not
adding lecithin. Even assuming that lecithin did decrease
iron levels (which it doesn't), the effect of lecithin on
iron storage is much too slow, so the pathway of "lecithin
reducing iron" cannot be used as a possible mechanism by
which lecithin supposedly exerts a positive effect on
sepsis, since the patient would have long expired.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"doe" <[email hidden]> wrote Since iron feeds
infection .. and since lecithin decreases the absorption

of

Quoted message said:

iron .. this study seems to give credence to the use of
iron reduction in sepsis.

... What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured anyone's
ferritin before and after long-term supplementation of
lecithin?

Iron phosphate is incredibly insoluble?

Quoted message said:

"Moosh🙂" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

What makes you think that lecithin (i.e. phosphorus)
decreases iron absorption? Have you ever measured
anyone's ferritin before and after long-term
supplementation of lecithin?

Iron phosphate is incredibly insoluble?

... Particularly if you are a hungry snail...

On 28 Mar 2004 18:43:20 GMT, [email hidden] (doe) posted:

Quoted message said:

Institute of Food Science ETHZ, Laboratory of Human
Nutrition, CH-8803 Ruschlikon, Switzerland.
[email hidden]

Vegetable protein sources are often mixed with cereals for
complementary feeding. Both contain high levels of phytic
acid, which can inhibit trace element and mineral
absorption. In adults, phytic acid has been reported to
inhibit the absorption of iron, zinc, calcium and manganese
but not copper. There are far fewer studies in infants.
Phytic acid is a strong inhibitor of iron absorption in
both infants and adults, but its influence on zinc
absorption in infants seems to be modest and perhaps most
important in children recovering from infection. The
influence of phytic acid on calcium and magnesium
absorption would seem of minor importance. Because iron and
zinc deficiencies are widespread in infants and young
children in developing countries, the bioavailability of
iron and zinc from complementary food is a major concern.
Iron absorption may be as low as 2-3% from porridge based
on whole-grain cereals and legumes (phytic acid
approximately 1 g/100 g) even in iron-deficient subjects.
Decreasing phytic acid by 90% ( approximately 100
mg/100 g dried product) would be expected to increase
absorption about twofold and complete degradation
perhaps fivefold or more. More modest reductions in
phytic acid content may not usefully improve iron
absorption. Complete enzymatic degradation of phytic
acid is recommended. If this is not possible, it is
recommended that the molar ratio of phytic acid to iron
in an iron-fortified food be <1, preferably <0.5. At
these low levels of phytic acid (20-30 mg/100 g dried
product), zinc absorption should be satisfactory.

This is interesting. Is it true that phytic acid is in plant
seeds to carry iron zinc calcium for the growing plant?

Why is there free phytic acid in plants? I understood that
it occured as iron and calcium phytate.