Le Monde goes after Contador.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

Even the UCI have exhonorated Contador over Operation Puerto. From what I
heard, Contador's name was in a list of race results seized with other
Puerto documenation, not in a list of pseudonyms of supposed clients. Others
were cleared at the same time, for the same reason. The tour organisers,
ASO, had confirmed this too.

David Lloyd

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

For anyone, like me, whos french isn't up to it -

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lemonde.fr%3A80%2Fweb%2Farticle%2F0%2C1-0%2C36-940003%2C0.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

David Lloyd

"David Lloyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

Even the UCI have exhonorated Contador over Operation Puerto. From what I
heard, Contador's name was in a list of race results seized with other
Puerto documenation, not in a list of pseudonyms of supposed clients.
Others were cleared at the same time, for the same reason. The tour
organisers, ASO, had confirmed this too.

He was on a phone call list ... totally exhonorated again yesterday.

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

What do they want to do? Ban everyone until Stéphane Goubert wins it?

--
Simon Mason
http://www.simonmason.karoo.net

David Lloyd said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Quoted message said:

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Quoted message said:

Tony

For anyone, like me, whos french isn't up to it -

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lemonde.fr%3...

David Lloyd

I couldn't follow any of the google translation. What are the key
points?

"the Spaniard threaded the yellow tunic" sounds like some kind of
subliminal Mme Defarge type message. Is that how these guys
communicate perhaps?

Simon Mason said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Quoted message said:

What do they want to do? Ban everyone until Stéphane Goubert wins it?

YATEOLMAICMFP.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

Tony Raven said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

Just seen Contador's press conference from last night on itv4. Unless
I have misinterpreted, his position looks rather doubtful. There are
bags of blood from Op Puerto marked A. C. and when asked if he would
supply his dna to eliminate himself from the reasonable suspicion that
A. C. might refer to him, he refused.

If my understanding is correct, he should be withdrawn from tdf
immediately.

raisethe said:

Tony Raven said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

Just seen Contador's press conference from last night on itv4. Unless
I have misinterpreted, his position looks rather doubtful. There are
bags of blood from Op Puerto marked A. C. and when asked if he would
supply his dna to eliminate himself from the reasonable suspicion that
A. C. might refer to him, he refused.

I think his line is he will supply a sample for DNA if asked for one.

Not sure of the legal process, perhaps there is some requirement of
evidence of suspicion before they can ask for one.

I have to say he looked a bit muted on the Podium for a 24 yr old who's
just won his first Tour, as though there were more than the weight of
the yellow jersey on his shoulders.

Quoted message said:

If my understanding is correct, he should be withdrawn from tdf
immediately.

Operation Puerto was a year or two ago though. Even if he was involved,
that's not evidence he wasn't clean for this Tour.

He was young, everyone on Liberty Seguros was doping, let's hope that's
all in the past now.

Ben C said:

He was young, everyone on Liberty Seguros was doping, let's hope that's
all in the past now.

According to the Daily Wail it is only just starting. WADA is picking
up were the Spanish authorities left off and Contador is in their sights.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/othersports.html?in_article_id=471522&in_page_id=1781

We may yet see Cadel Evans as the winner for whatever that will be worth.

Tony

Simon Mason said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-940003,0.html

Alberto Contador, maillot jaune miraculé de l'"opération Puerto"

Tony

What do they want to do? Ban everyone until Stéphane Goubert wins it?

It's not just Le Monde. The Süddeutsche Zeitung :

<http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt2m13/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/>

has an even more detailed (and more coherently written) contribution
on the subject.

Tony Raven said:

Ben C said:

He was young, everyone on Liberty Seguros was doping, let's hope that's
all in the past now.

According to the Daily Wail it is only just starting. WADA is picking
up were the Spanish authorities left off and Contador is in their sights.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/othersports.html...

We may yet see Cadel Evans as the winner for whatever that will be worth.

Tony

The situation is way bigger than the Mail understands. We have now had
Contador, Ras, Landis, Pereiro (?) and Armstrong tainted (1) in the
tdf, Vino and Heras in the Vuelta and Di Luca and Basso in the Giro.
It looks likely that to be a respected winner of one of the big three
tours it is now necessary to be clean. Looking back over the last few
years there hasn't really been an undisputed winner of these tours.
That has to be a good thing. I don't think most people appreciate the
enormous steps that have been made against the doping cheats this
month.

I think it would be worth an immense amount for Cadel Evans to be
declared winner of the tdf.

(1) Of course, we don't know whether any of these riders have doped,
there have just been various levels of suspicion about them.

raisethe said:

The situation is way bigger than the Mail understands. We have now
had Contador, Ras, Landis, Pereiro (?) and Armstrong tainted (1) in
the tdf, Vino and Heras in the Vuelta and Di Luca and Basso in the
Giro. It looks likely that to be a respected winner of one of the big
three tours it is now necessary to be clean. Looking back over the
last few years there hasn't really been an undisputed winner of these
tours. That has to be a good thing. I don't think most people
appreciate the enormous steps that have been made against the doping
cheats this month.

I think it would be worth an immense amount for Cadel Evans to be
declared winner of the tdf.

(1) Of course, we don't know whether any of these riders have doped,
there have just been various levels of suspicion about them.

So even though there is no evidence against Armstrong he it tainted in
your mind. What about Leipheimer? That was a pretty spectacular ride he
pulled yesterday. Must have been doping surely? In fact anyone that
wins must have doped. Isn't that what you are saying? Because evidence
is sadly lacking in some of those you are calling tainted.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Quoted message said:

So even though there is no evidence against Armstrong he it tainted in

your mind. What about Leipheimer? That was a pretty spectacular ride he
pulled yesterday. Must have been doping surely? In fact anyone that
wins must have doped. Isn't that what you are saying? Because evidence
is sadly lacking in some of those you are calling tainted.

Tony-

Not really, you are exaggerating my point. Armstrong is tainted in the
sense that the French press have been after him for years. I've no
idea whether he was clean or not.

I am not saying that anyone who wins must have doped, only that all
those who have won recently have question marks against them in the
media, whether valid or not. However, I will say that anyone with
common sense would consider that where a cyclist and / or his team
have performed exceptionally well, it is not unreasonable to consider
whether or not they have doped. Why do you think that the stage
winners get tested every day? It is right that the highest profile
winners are subjected to huge scrutiny.

I do have considerations about Discovery. Three riders in tdf top 10
despite their best rider having been banned. An outstanding
performance from a team that has knowingly employed two riders (Basso
and Contador) involved in doping scandals. As far as I am aware there
is no information available to suggest they are anything other than
clean, but how can we know for sure?

The cheats have tarnished the sport because it means we can no longer
automatically believe that fantastic performances are almost
definitely clean. Of course, you can choose to believe that if you
wish. Can you give me any proofs that Discovery are clean? Or any that
they are doping?

raisethe said:

Not really, you are exaggerating my point. Armstrong is tainted in the
sense that the French press have been after him for years. I've no
idea whether he was clean or not.

I am not saying that anyone who wins must have doped, only that all
those who have won recently have question marks against them in the
media, whether valid or not. However, I will say that anyone with
common sense would consider that where a cyclist and / or his team
have performed exceptionally well, it is not unreasonable to consider
whether or not they have doped. Why do you think that the stage
winners get tested every day? It is right that the highest profile
winners are subjected to huge scrutiny.

I do have considerations about Discovery. Three riders in tdf top 10
despite their best rider having been banned. An outstanding
performance from a team that has knowingly employed two riders (Basso
and Contador) involved in doping scandals. As far as I am aware there
is no information available to suggest they are anything other than
clean, but how can we know for sure?

The cheats have tarnished the sport because it means we can no longer
automatically believe that fantastic performances are almost
definitely clean. Of course, you can choose to believe that if you
wish. Can you give me any proofs that Discovery are clean? Or any that
they are doping?

So you think this is how it should be in reality:
http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/04/06/2007-tour-de-france-winner-stripped-of-title

Tony

raisethe said:

Tony Raven said:

Quoted message said:

So even though there is no evidence against Armstrong he it tainted in

your mind. What about Leipheimer? That was a pretty spectacular ride he
pulled yesterday. Must have been doping surely? In fact anyone that
wins must have doped. Isn't that what you are saying? Because evidence
is sadly lacking in some of those you are calling tainted.

Quoted message said:

Not really, you are exaggerating my point. Armstrong is tainted in the
sense that the French press have been after him for years. I've no
idea whether he was clean or not.

Here's a hint: he's taken huge numbers of drugs tests and passed every
one.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I do have considerations about Discovery. Three riders in tdf top 10
despite their best rider having been banned. An outstanding
performance from a team that has knowingly employed two riders (Basso
and Contador) involved in doping scandals.

Remind me: in what way has Contador been involved in a doping scandal
without being swiftly exonerated?

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

Ekul Namsob said:

Quoted message said:

Not really, you are exaggerating my point. Armstrong is tainted in the
sense that the French press have been after him for years. I've no
idea whether he was clean or not.

Here's a hint: he's taken huge numbers of drugs tests and passed every
one.

As interestingly has Rasmussen.

Tony

On 30 Jul, 21:04, [email hidden] (Ekul

Namsob) said:

raisethe said:

. Armstrong is tainted in the
sense that the French press have been after him for years. I've no
idea whether he was clean or not.

Here's a hint: he's taken huge numbers of drugs tests and passed every
one.

Irrelevant. I don't know that any of the riders in Operation Puerto
had failed any tests. (Correct me if I'm mistaken). Ullrich never
failed one, neither did Zabel.

Any more hints?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Remind me: in what way has Contador been involved in a doping scandal
without being swiftly exonerated?

See my earlier post. On the tele it said that among the Liberty
Seguros blood bags were some marked A.C. He would not voluntarily
provide his DNA to clear his name. Have I misunderstood this or is
this not a fair representation of the situation? Why has he been
exonerated if these are the facts? Do you know? Please share it with
us.

Just to repeat myself (ad nauseum) though I think Tony may be wilfully
misunderstanding me :I), I am not accusing these guys of cheating,
just making the obvious point that they might be, given the
information available to us and our supposed knowledge of how the pro
peloton has used doping in recent decades.

I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion without self
delusion or dishonesty.

Tony Raven said:

your mind. What about Leipheimer? That was a pretty spectacular ride he
pulled yesterday. Must have been doping surely? In fact anyone that
wins must have doped. Isn't that what you are saying? Because evidence
is sadly lacking in some of those you are calling tainted.

Never mind the racers. Those cycling commuters are clearly either
insane or doped-up too. Anyone that cycles day-in day-out on roads
meant for motor vehicles where any normal person would drive a car is
clearly insane or on drugs or both.

Some of them don't even wear helmets.

-dan

p.s. for the avoidance of doubt, YES THAT WAS SARCASM

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:04:51 GMT,

(Ekul Namsob) said:

Quoted message said:

I do have considerations about Discovery. Three riders in tdf top 10
despite their best rider having been banned. An outstanding
performance from a team that has knowingly employed two riders (Basso
and Contador) involved in doping scandals.

Remind me: in what way has Contador been involved in a doping scandal
without being swiftly exonerated?

<http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt2m13/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/>

and

<http://www.zdf.de/ZDFsport/inhalt/25/0,5676,5579481,00.html>