LBS vs. Mail Order

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just re-built a set of wheels with new rims and spokes for the first time. I had to replace the
back because a spoke pulled through. So I did the front so it would match. Wheel building was a
blast...I love it !

However, there is another point to this story. Three years ago I took the wheels in for truing.
My local LBS told me that the front rim was so damaged that they could not true it
properly...they recommended that I pay them to rebuild the wheel with a new rim. Since that time
I found that I could true it just fine. And when I took it apart to rebuild it, the rim was in
fine shape...no damage.

I'm gradually building up more tools so that I can do most of my own mechanical work. When I need
something I normally mail order. I really haven't found an LBS that I am happy with. And I doubt
that any shop is going to put as much love and attention into the service it provides as I do for
my own bike. They couldn't afford it.

If I need advice I come to rec.bicycles.tech. And, by the way, I do try to throw my mail
order business towards participants on this board from time to time. They've done more for me
than my LBS.

Funny that you say a shop couldn't afford to give your bike the kind of TLC that you give it
yourself. Seems to me they better start figuring out that if they won't they'll continue to lose
more and more business to mail order. After years of a great relationship with my LBS, I've had to
basically give up. They fired all the "seasoned professionals" who actually knew something about
bikes. Now they have a bunch of kids running the shop. I've tried to give them a chance, but they're
just awful. My bike comes out in worse shape than when I took it in. Plus, they have to act like
they know it all. I took my bike in for a minor brake problem. I'd have fixed it myself, but I had
the bike in the truck and I was right there. I said, "just fix the brake ... don't touch anything
else." I don't know what part of that was unclear, but the next thing I knew, the cable for the rear
derailleur was out and he was messing with the shifter going, "huh?" Well, there was nothing wrong
with the shifting when I went in. It took me days to get it straightened out again after I left
there. They'd not re-seated a section of cable housing properly and it kept slipping and causing
mis-shifts. What a bunch of dufi.

Bob C.

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm gradually building up more tools so that I can do most of my own mechanical work. When I need
something I normally mail order. I really haven't found an LBS that I am happy with. And I doubt
that any shop is going to put as much love and attention into the service it provides as I do for
my own bike. They couldn't afford it.

At least you've looked for a good LBS, most people jump right into wherever.com when they see
clearance pries. Since you can do your own work, I say keep on...when you need parts, get them mail
order if you're genuinely unhappy with your LBS service.

Quoted message said:

If I need advice I come to rec.bicycles.tech. And, by the way, I do try to throw my mail
order business towards participants on this board from time to time. They've done more for me
than my LBS.

Sounds good to me, as if you were looking for my approval. FWIW, I ordered from Pricepoint and
Jenson sometimes when I was still a mechanic, because either things weren't available to us, or in a
rare case, Pricepoint had stuff cheaper than out prices (they were grey market, but brake levers are
brake levers).

To me, the concept of LBS over mail-order is dependent on helping out friends and neighbors. If
you get help from guys here, it's nice that you repay the favor. I can't see anyone quarreling
with that.

I'm a big go-to-your-LBS guy...but I'm also a college student and no longer have employee-discount
privileges, so my Cross Check is looking to get lots of help from Cambria, Jenson, etc...the LBS is
just too expensive sometimes. I'm not talking 2-3 dollars, I mean like a $20 difference on a
handlebar, $30 on a hubset, etc.

Chris

I am frequently reminded of the gap between LBS pricing and mail order. On each of my last 3 bike
puchases I negotiated a discount on accessories for 3-6 months after delivery of the bike. In one
case 50%, in another case 25%. With a 50% discount, I was almost always better off than mail
order...but not always. With a 25% discount it is frequently cheaper to buy mail order, although if
the item is a small $ value I go ahead and buy it as the LBS instead.

On the other hand, I do give my LBS credit for fantastic repair service. They even offer a class in
how to do certain bikes repairs yourself. This class also teaches you how to do some simple things
to avoid more costly repairs later.

BTW...the 50% discount was kind of an anomaly. I had asked for 15% and when my receipt came back it
said "50% off on all accessories until 12/15/03" (The salesman must have heard "50 when I said 15"😉
Who was I to argue🙂 It just goes to show how much LBS margin there is on accesories (or how much
they made on the bike, inspite of a decent discount on it).

Ken

Quoted message said:

I'm a big go-to-your-LBS guy...but I'm also a college student and no

longer

Quoted message said:

have employee-discount privileges, so my Cross Check is looking to get

lots

Quoted message said:

of help from Cambria, Jenson, etc...the LBS is just too expensive

sometimes.

Quoted message said:

I'm not talking 2-3 dollars, I mean like a $20 difference on a handlebar, $30 on a hubset, etc.

Chris

Ken Huizenga said:

BTW...the 50% discount was kind of an anomaly. I had asked for 15% and when my receipt came back
it said "50% off on all accessories until 12/15/03" (The salesman must have heard "50 when I said
15"😉 Who was I to argue🙂 It just goes to show how much LBS margin there is on accesories (or how
much they made on the bike, inspite of a decent discount on it).

Unless he's buying better than I ever did, he's losing every time you walk in the shop.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

Go with whatever is cheaper. Usually that's mail order. So, mail order all the way!

Quoted message said:

I'm gradually building up more tools so that I can do most of my own mechanical work. When I need
something I normally mail order. I really haven't found an LBS that I am happy with. And I doubt
that any shop is going to put as much love and attention into the service it provides as I do for
my own bike. They couldn't afford it.

If I need advice I come to rec.bicycles.tech. And, by the way, I do try to throw my mail
order business towards participants on this board from time to time. They've done more for me
than my LBS.

Matt: Sorry to hear about your experiences; many shops actually err too far in the opposite
direction, believing they can make something functional that's actually far beyond its useful life.
One of those things where they take it as a challenge (hey, don't replace that, I can fix it! And
then they grab for tools like you'd see in some dental-horror movie...).

A really good LBS will maintain a sense of ownership of the bikes they sell, and tend to take it
personally when things aren't quite right (or the bike is mistreated). It's not just a bike, after
all.... it's something that can magically transport you into another dimension (if the stars are
lined up properly). It's more than just a collection of spoke nipples and bottom bracket bearings
and brake levers.

The worst part of this is that, if a LBS isn't taking care of the local clientele, there are going
to be a lot of people who will never discover what bicycling is all about. A really good LBS is not
only making sure people get an appropriate bike in the right size, but also letting them know about
local opportunities to ride, and making sure there's no reason for that bike to be spending its life
in the garage (whether it's because it's uncomfortable, not working quite right, whatever). Those
are things that mail-order just can't do.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I just re-built a set of wheels with new rims and spokes for the first time. I had to replace the
back because a spoke pulled through. So I did the front so it would match. Wheel building was a
blast...I love it !

However, there is another point to this story. Three years ago I took the wheels in for truing.
My local LBS told me that the front rim was so damaged that they could not true it
properly...they recommended that I pay them to rebuild the wheel with a new rim. Since that time
I found that I could true it just fine. And when I took it apart to rebuild it, the rim was in
fine shape...no damage.

I'm gradually building up more tools so that I can do most of my own mechanical work. When I need
something I normally mail order. I really haven't found an LBS that I am happy with. And I doubt
that any shop is going to put as much love and attention into the service it provides as I do for
my own bike. They couldn't afford it.

If I need advice I come to rec.bicycles.tech. And, by the way, I do try to throw my mail
order business towards participants on this board from time to time. They've done more for me
than my LBS.

"BaCardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Go with whatever is cheaper. Usually that's mail order. So, mail order all the way!

I'm in both camps. I know when I need something, I can get it less expensively online (new or used)
and install/maintain it myself. I have friends that aren't as mechanically inclined so they end up
buying at the LBS and either getting me to install it or having the LBS install it. (I work on bikes
for beer and pizza, so I'm usually less expensive than a LBS... I usually can't figure out which I
enjoy more: working on the bikes or riding/racing them.)

I worked in a shop for quite a while. There are things about shops that online just can't match.
When you have a really funky something or another that needs TLC. For example: setting up
rollercams, chasing and facing things, etc. Another is the comradery of having the same disease:
bicycles. Chatting about this and that bicycling related is what makes some shops shops, and others
stores. I think it boils down to passion like someone else said above. My computer monitor doesn't
get all excited about my latest widget that we bought, but the LBS may.

There is a place for the LBS. Generally its for "entry level serious" riders. Guys and girls that
want to get into cycling, but don't know their [censored] from a hole in the ground. The LBS serves as an
intro into aspects of riding that sometimes your riding buddies just never can. Once you graduate
into a full disease-carrying member of the cycling fraternity, your reliance on the LBS tends to
wane as you discover more than what they offer: Campy, Colnago, Castelli, Assos, etc.

I'm rambling. Sorry. You can go back to your regularly scheduled life now.

Mike

...

Quoted message said:

Ken Huizenga said:

BTW...the 50% discount was kind of an anomaly. I had asked for 15% and when my receipt came back
it said "50% off on all accessories until 12/15/03" (The salesman must have heard "50 when I
said 15"😉 Who was I to argue🙂 It just goes to show how much LBS margin there is on accesories
(or how much they made on the bike, inspite of a decent discount on it).

Andy Morris wrote Unless he's buying better than I ever did, he's losing every time you walk in
the shop.

I try to buy from the LBS whenever prices are reasonably close. On some items they are as good as
online on others they can come close.. I look at their catalogs from "action" or whoever and on a
lot of items I can find it for less on line than what the shop pays for the item. Some people think
that 100% mark up is a lot. For the overhead the local shop has to deal with I figure most of it
goes to cover bills. Plus their labor is cheap. I wish I could find someone to work on my car for a
little as they charge to work on my bike. He may not be up to date on the latest greatest stupid
light part...but if you bring one in he'll know how to put it on and get it working correctly.

Rod Raisanen Chillicothe, Oh

The reply remove garbage

mcahill-<< I really haven't found an LBS that I am happy with. And I doubt that any shop is going to
put as much love and attention into the service it provides as I do for my own bike. They couldn't
afford it. >><BR><BR>

Well, survival in a tough marketplace is a strong motivator. I put a lot more attention and 'love'
into a customer's bike than my own.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

psycholist-<< After years of a great relationship with my LBS, I've had to basically give up. They
fired all the "seasoned professionals" who actually knew something about bikes. >><BR><BR>

Too bad and all to common. Even here in Boulder, some really awful LBS seem to survive.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bacardi-<< Go with whatever is cheaper. Usually that's mail order. So, mail order all the way!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Be sure to hold the fork crown race seat or BB shell real close to the phone or computer when ya
need it prepped correctly...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just re-built a set of wheels with new rims and spokes for the first time. I had to replace the
back because a spoke pulled through. So I did the front so it would match. Wheel building was a
blast...I love it !

Welcome to the Club. Secret handshake to follow. 😉

[snipped story]

I too deal more in mail order nowadays. Frankly, the three or four LBSs we have round these parts
are more interested in selling me a whole new bike than working on my beater commuter. I didn't have
time the year my last child was born, so I figured to farm out the work. Heh. "We can get to that
next Thursday - drop it off." While I'm wheeling it back, I see ZERO bikes in the repair stands. OK,
I don't know anything about what they are doing, so no big deal. Guy comes in with a high-end CF
Trek, and complains of poor shifting. Two guys hustle it back to the repair area and tell the guy
they'll have it fixed "while he waits." Ahhh. OK, an idea begins to dawn...

Then, when I come back on Friday to pick up the bike, they aren't done with it (of course.) The
thing just need routine maintneance, fergawdsake! But the salesdroid didn't waste any time chatting
me up about how old my bike was, and how parts weren't readily available, etc. I smiled, and vowed
right there that this shop wouldn't get any more of my money.

I got the bike back with the chain over-lubricated, grease where it wasn't supposed to be, and a
maladjusted headset. But that was just the beginning. Going to the other shops nearby produced
similar results, with different details. They all wanted me to buy a new bike, and weren't much
interested in servicing my old one. Sure, it's a beater POS, but it works just fine as a bike to
ride around, to take on vacation, to not worry much about if it gets stolen (which happens in a
college town.)

Those experiences soured me on LBSs in general, and now the only way I'm taking a bike to an LBS is
if there is something I absolutely cannot do myself. And I'll be damned if I ever buy any new bike
from an LBS - unless they show themselves to be worth patronizing. The pro-LBS crowd has a point,
but bicycles aren't rocket science. They are quite simple machines, and anyone can teach themselves
to work on them, if they have patience and are willing to buy the tools required for the job. If I
had every dollar back that I spent on installation and maintenance charges, my tools would be nearly
all-inclusive.

I'm sure that there are fine LBSs out there. I just have never walked into one. Yet. I hold out
hope, because I'd rather spend my money locally and support a local guy (or guys/gals) than ship my
money to some big outfit. What's really funny is that it's only with bicycle-related stuff that I
have ever had a problem with persistently crappy service or total sales jobs.
--
Jonesy

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, survival in a tough marketplace is a strong motivator. I put a lot more attention and 'love'
into a customer's bike than my own.

Yup, as the saying goes, the cobbler's children have no shoes...

Ever noticed how mechanics always drive crappy cars? That contractors always have the ugliest house
on the street? That psychologists' kids are always completely screwed up?

Matt O.

"psycholist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

... snip...

Quoted message said:

nothing wrong with the shifting when I went in. It took me days to get it straightened out again
after I left there. They'd not re-seated a section of cable housing properly and it kept slipping
and causing mis-shifts.

What

Quoted message said:

a bunch of dufi.

Bob C.

shouldn't that be "doofi" (I thought it was pretty funny, anyway)

-Don

"Jonesy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

They all wanted me to buy a new bike, and weren't much interested in servicing my old one.

This doesn't make sense, but many businesses are run in a way that doesn't make sense. It seems to
me that unless you're big enough, and in a good enough location to support a large retail business,
the service department would be more profitable (per square foot) than retail sales. Shopkeepers
here please correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

"Jonesy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

They all wanted me to buy a new bike, and weren't much interested in servicing my old one.

This doesn't make sense, but many businesses are run in a way that doesn't make sense. It seems to
me that unless you're big enough, and in a good enough location to support a large retail business,
the service department would be more profitable (per square foot) than retail sales. Shopkeepers
here please correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt O.

When I had my store retail margins on bikes were about 20%, accessories 35%, clothing 40 to 60%...
we moved a solid 60% through the shop (except Nov. and Feb.)

However if the bike was out dated enough or screwed up enough that sorcing parts or working on the
thing was difficult we would recommend the rider buy new.. it may save him or her money (long term),
and definitely saved us hassle.

Word of mouth advertising works in two ways ...what you don't ever want to hear is "they charged me
$100 and it still rides like [censored]!" even if that $100 is the best deal on the best work around it
doesn't mean squat.

I stop buying from Excel, Performance, Colorado Cyclist, Nashbar, etc. when the bike shops decide to stop raping customers on price.

Man, I feel sorry for you guys...

Where do you live to have such bad shops???

Dave Lettieri FasTrack Bicycles 118 W. Canon Perdido Santa Barbara, CA 93101 805-884-0210
775-248-7632 Fax

www.fastrackbicycles.com

(Jonesy) said:

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I just re-built a set of wheels with new rims and spokes for the first time. I had to replace the
back because a spoke pulled through. So I did the front so it would match. Wheel building was a
blast...I love it !

Welcome to the Club. Secret handshake to follow. 😉

[snipped story]

I too deal more in mail order nowadays. Frankly, the three or four LBSs we have round these parts
are more interested in selling me a whole new bike than working on my beater commuter. I didn't
have time the year my last child was born, so I figured to farm out the work. Heh. "We can get to
that next Thursday - drop it off." While I'm wheeling it back, I see ZERO bikes in the repair
stands. OK, I don't know anything about what they are doing, so no big deal. Guy comes in with a
high-end CF Trek, and complains of poor shifting. Two guys hustle it back to the repair area and
tell the guy they'll have it fixed "while he waits." Ahhh. OK, an idea begins to dawn...

Then, when I come back on Friday to pick up the bike, they aren't done with it (of course.) The
thing just need routine maintneance, fergawdsake! But the salesdroid didn't waste any time chatting
me up about how old my bike was, and how parts weren't readily available, etc. I smiled, and vowed
right there that this shop wouldn't get any more of my money.

I got the bike back with the chain over-lubricated, grease where it wasn't supposed to be, and a
maladjusted headset. But that was just the beginning. Going to the other shops nearby produced
similar results, with different details. They all wanted me to buy a new bike, and weren't much
interested in servicing my old one. Sure, it's a beater POS, but it works just fine as a bike to
ride around, to take on vacation, to not worry much about if it gets stolen (which happens in a
college town.)

Those experiences soured me on LBSs in general, and now the only way I'm taking a bike to an LBS is
if there is something I absolutely cannot do myself. And I'll be damned if I ever buy any new bike
from an LBS - unless they show themselves to be worth patronizing. The pro-LBS crowd has a point,
but bicycles aren't rocket science. They are quite simple machines, and anyone can teach themselves
to work on them, if they have patience and are willing to buy the tools required for the job. If I
had every dollar back that I spent on installation and maintenance charges, my tools would be
nearly all-inclusive.

I'm sure that there are fine LBSs out there. I just have never walked into one. Yet. I hold out
hope, because I'd rather spend my money locally and support a local guy (or guys/gals) than ship my
money to some big outfit. What's really funny is that it's only with bicycle-related stuff that I
have ever had a problem with persistently crappy service or total sales jobs.

"BaCardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I stop buying from Excel, Performance, Colorado Cyclist, Nashbar, etc. when the bike shops decide
to stop raping customers on price.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

If LBSs could afford to charge what online clearinghouses did, they would. Do you honestly think
their business model is based on customer alienation?

There's a reason a lot of parts from a lot of online places come in plastic bags, not boxes, with no
instructions or documentation - because they're not supposed to be selling them. And even in the
case of a fully legal sale, huge web dealers can buy in volume no LBS can match, saving on item and
shipping costs.

Plus, a solid LBS (at least around here) offers free installation on parts purchased. Get that
from Nashbar.

Chris -had his hardtail stolen today, feeling a bit surly. Not the bike, I'm getting a Surly in a
few weeks. For now, it's me that's surly.