Lazerlite rear hub

[email hidden said:

"]While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil OK.
will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
specific rubber friedly grease?

parktool.comreadhowto.aspOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil OK.
will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
specific rubber friedly grease?

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil OK.
will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
specific rubber friedly grease?

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree with
grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard advocates oil
for the pawls.

Pat

Pat Lamb said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil
OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
specific rubber friedly grease?

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree with
grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard advocates
oil for the pawls.

Pat

Mine had grease all over them when I opened them up. Works fine.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

BBBut you are in Flordia, eh?

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
is oil OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

If the seals in the hub are not designed to be used with hydrocarbon
lubricants, your hub is toast. Who makes these things anyway? They
seem to be shy and don't readily show up on a web search.

Quoted message said:

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

In what way is oil "to thin?" As has been mentioned often, grease is
oil in a "pudding" and has a viscosity that does not correlate to the
grease stiffness. Your grease has an oil viscosity that defines its
lubrication flow. That is also not directly related to film strength
in boundary layer lubrication.

So back to the question. What makes you sure that oil should not be
used?

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
is oil OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

If the seals in the hub are not designed to be used with hydrocarbon
lubricants, your hub is toast. Who makes these things anyway? They
seem to be shy and don't readily show up on a web search.

Quoted message said:

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

In what way is oil "to thin?" As has been mentioned often, grease is
oil in a "pudding" and has a viscosity that does not correlate to the
grease stiffness. Your grease has an oil viscosity that defines its
lubrication flow. That is also not directly related to film strength
in boundary layer lubrication.

So back to the question. What makes you sure that oil should not be
used?

Ugh... all these big words. The oil won't keep water out as well as grease
will. Do I get a prize?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Pat Lamb said:

Phil said:

Quoted message said:

While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil
OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
specific rubber friedly grease?

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree with
grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard advocates
oil for the pawls.

I didn't read what you said carefully. The design of this hub (an American
Classic design licensed to WTB) is such that water seems to take the path of
the spokes and once it ends up on the hubs, it drips directly on the seal
that leads to the inside of the pawl area.

Take a look here. This is an American Classic Ultralight rear road hub
which is very similar to the LaserDisc Lite:
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

That's my hub as I opened it.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
> pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
> is oil OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
> must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the seals in the hub are not designed to be used with
hydrocarbon lubricants, your hub is toast. Who makes these things
anyway? They seem to be shy and don't readily show up on a web
search.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In what way is oil "to thin?" As has been mentioned often, grease
is oil in a "pudding" and has a viscosity that does not correlate
to the grease stiffness. Your grease has an oil viscosity that
defines its lubrication flow. That is also not directly related to
film strength in boundary layer lubrication.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So back to the question. What makes you sure that oil should not
be used?

Quoted message said:

Ugh... all these big words. The oil won't keep water out as well as
grease will. Do I get a prize?

No. If you visualize the grease as being static, as on a seatpost,
where it is often used to prevent water intrusion, you are using the
wrong model. The hub-to-axle joint rotates and "stirs" the grease and
any water on its surface into an ice cream like paste. That is, the
grease transports water into the hub if exposed to water. The oil in
the grease emulsifies and in time can homogenize.

To keep water out, either a double lipped seal with a drained central
gap, or a labyrinth seal such as Sturmey-Archer hubs and many
Ashtabula BB's have, is required. These drain water out the bottom by
gravity, much as the eaves on a house do.

|------
| |----|
|----| |
| |
| |
----| |----

- - - - - - - - - - - How this prevents splash water intrusion should
be apparent.
----| |----
| |
| |
|----| |
| |----|
|------

The gaps must be large enough not to act as capillaries, something
that SunTour freewheels failed to do and are, therefore, not as
weather proof as they were designed to be having half mm gap labyrinth
seals that are visible as brass rings on the back side and hidden
under the cone. It was a nice gesture though and works sort-of.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

From your response, I take it you are guessing about which lubricants
are effective and how. You might add that disclaimer before giving
advice on lubrication.

Jobst Brandt

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
> pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
> is oil OK. Will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
> must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree
with grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard
advocates oil for the pawls.

Quoted message said:

I didn't read what you said carefully. The design of this hub (an
American Classic design licensed to WTB) is such that water seems to
take the path of the spokes and once it ends up on the hubs, it
drips directly on the seal that leads to the inside of the pawl
area.

Quoted message said:

Take a look here. This is an American Classic Ultralight rear road
hub which is very similar to the LaserDisc Lite:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

Quoted message said:

That's my hub as I opened it.

Holy grease ball, how many pawls (6?) does this thing use and how many
ramps does the ratchet have? Do you have a picture of a cleaned pawl?
Since the whole assembly is covered in grease, not much detail is
discernible, like the shape of the greasy ring in picture one and with
what it meshes on the hub.

I find amazing that no Mfr. shows a cross section view of his
product. The last good ones I can recall are old Campagnolo and
Sturmey-Archer hubs. An isometric 3-D picture doesn't reveal how
things work. It's just a pretty picture.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

>> While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
>> pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
>> is oil OK. Will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
>> must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
> bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree
with grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard
advocates oil for the pawls.

Quoted message said:

I didn't read what you said carefully. The design of this hub (an
American Classic design licensed to WTB) is such that water seems to
take the path of the spokes and once it ends up on the hubs, it
drips directly on the seal that leads to the inside of the pawl
area.

Quoted message said:

Take a look here. This is an American Classic Ultralight rear road
hub which is very similar to the LaserDisc Lite:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

Quoted message said:

That's my hub as I opened it.

Holy grease ball, how many pawls (6?) does this thing use

I think it's six.

Quoted message said:

and how many
ramps does the ratchet have?

The freehub body has the ratchets on it. I think I counted 25 or 26.

Quoted message said:

Do you have a picture of a cleaned pawl?

I didn't clean it because I was replacing the recalled clutch plate... it
was a brand-new hub.

Quoted message said:

Since the whole assembly is covered in grease, not much detail is
discernible, like the shape of the greasy ring in picture one and with
what it meshes on the hub.

The greasy ring in picture one is metal with a rubber backing on it. It is
assembled in picture two as the rubbery-looking seal thingy on the main part
of the hub, covering the assembled pawls.

Quoted message said:

I find amazing that no Mfr. shows a cross section view of his
product. The last good ones I can recall are old Campagnolo and
Sturmey-Archer hubs. An isometric 3-D picture doesn't reveal how
things work. It's just a pretty picture.

I think that's a personal opinion. Isometric views show how things fit
together in 3D space along different planes, saving multiple views and
space/paper. Cross-sections can't do that.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Take a look here. This is an American Classic Ultralight rear
road hub which is very similar to the LaserDisc Lite:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's my hub as I opened it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Holy grease ball, how many pawls (6?) does this thing use

Quoted message said:

I think it's six.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and how many ramps does the ratchet have?

Quoted message said:

The freehub body has the ratchets on it. I think I counted 25 or 26.

That's unusual, with that number of ramps only one pawl would be
engaged at any time and the escapement would click either 150 or 156
times per revolution. I have not seen a bicycle with 2.3 degree
resolution. That's unusually fine. I can't imagine how that sounds
if the ratchet is audible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a picture of a cleaned pawl?

Quoted message said:

I didn't clean it because I was replacing the recalled clutch
plate... it was a brand-new hub.

What is a clutch plate and is it visible in the pictures you list?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since the whole assembly is covered in grease, not much detail is
discernible, like the shape of the greasy ring in picture one and
with what it meshes on the hub.

Quoted message said:

The greasy ring in picture one is metal with a rubber backing on it.
It is assembled in picture two as the rubbery-looking seal thingy on
the main part of the hub, covering the assembled pawls.

Sounds like a designed water port to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find amazing that no Mfr. shows a cross section view of his
product. The last good ones I can recall are old Campagnolo and
Sturmey-Archer hubs. An isometric 3-D picture doesn't reveal how
things work. It's just a pretty picture.

Quoted message said:

I think that's a personal opinion. Isometric views show how things
fit together in 3D space along different planes, saving multiple
views and space/paper. Cross-sections can't do that.

I think you are thinking of an exploded view. A solid or even a
transparent isometric does not reveal anything but an idea of how the
device appears externally... like a photograph.

Jobst Brandt

Phil said:

Pat Lamb said:

Phil said:

[email hidden] wrote:

>While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the pawls
>all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or is oil
>OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or must I use a
>specific rubber friedly grease?

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree with
grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard advocates
oil for the pawls.

Pat

Mine had grease all over them when I opened them up. Works fine.

Even when it's (really) cold?

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and how many ramps does the ratchet have?

The freehub body has the ratchets on it. I think I counted 25 or 26.

Quoted message said:

That's unusual, with that number of ramps only one pawl would be
engaged at any time and the escapement would click either 150 or 156
times per revolution. I have not seen a bicycle with 2.3 degree
resolution. That's unusually fine. I can't imagine how that sounds
if the ratchet is audible.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

I count 24 on the freehub body. It'd be 24 clicks, with all six
pawls clicking in sync.

-Luns

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

Quoted message said:

> Take a look here. This is an American Classic Ultralight rear
> road hub which is very similar to the LaserDisc Lite:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb1.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> That's my hub as I opened it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Holy grease ball, how many pawls (6?) does this thing use

Quoted message said:

I think it's six.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and how many ramps does the ratchet have?

Quoted message said:

The freehub body has the ratchets on it. I think I counted 25 or 26.

That's unusual, with that number of ramps only one pawl would be
engaged at any time and the escapement would click either 150 or 156
times per revolution. I have not seen a bicycle with 2.3 degree
resolution. That's unusually fine. I can't imagine how that sounds
if the ratchet is audible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a picture of a cleaned pawl?

Quoted message said:

I didn't clean it because I was replacing the recalled clutch
plate... it was a brand-new hub.

What is a clutch plate and is it visible in the pictures you list?

http://www.amclassic.com/tech/pdf/AmClassicCamPlatePg1.jpg

http://www.amclassic.com/tech/pdf/AmClassicCamPlatePg2.jpg
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Squid-in-Training said:

Quoted message said:

Phil Lee said:

> While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
> pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
> is oil OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I use any grease or
> must I use a specific rubber friendly grease?

If the seals in the hub are not designed to be used with hydrocarbon
lubricants, your hub is toast. Who makes these things anyway? They
seem to be shy and don't readily show up on a web search.

Quoted message said:

Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

In what way is oil "to thin?" As has been mentioned often, grease is
oil in a "pudding" and has a viscosity that does not correlate to the
grease stiffness. Your grease has an oil viscosity that defines its
lubrication flow. That is also not directly related to film strength
in boundary layer lubrication.

So back to the question. What makes you sure that oil should not be
used?

Ugh... all these big words. The oil won't keep water out as well as grease
will. Do I get a prize?

Only runner-up. He scored all the bonus points available with "grease is oil in
a 'pudding.'"

Ron

Lou Holtman said:

Phil said:

Pat Lamb said:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

> [email hidden] wrote:
>
>> While servicing the hub, I am not sure what lube to use so the
>> pawls all work like they should. Must I pack them with grease or
>> is oil OK. will the rubber seal go hard if I ues any grease or
>> must I use a specific rubber friedly grease?
>
> Don't use oil... it's too thin. My Laser Lite hub works fine with
> bicycle-specific grease such as Finish Line or Park.

Are you sure? Note the OP says he's lubing the _pawls_. I agree
with grease for the bearings, but everything I've read or heard
advocates oil for the pawls.

Pat

Mine had grease all over them when I opened them up. Works fine.

Even when it's (really) cold?

That data point isn't on my radar, so that was an oversight on my part.
Currently it's 80 degrees outside here in FL.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Luns Tee said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and how many ramps does the ratchet have?
The freehub body has the ratchets on it. I think I counted 25 or
26.

Quoted message said:

That's unusual, with that number of ramps only one pawl would be
engaged at any time and the escapement would click either 150 or 156
times per revolution. I have not seen a bicycle with 2.3 degree
resolution. That's unusually fine. I can't imagine how that sounds
if the ratchet is audible.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

I count 24 on the freehub body. It'd be 24 clicks, with all six
pawls clicking in sync.

Yes, it's 24 clicks per revolution. It's still loud as hell and sounds like
even more like a bees nest than CK hubs.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Luns Tee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and how many ramps does the ratchet have?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The freehub body has the ratchets on it.
I think I counted 25 or 26.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's unusual, with that number of ramps only one pawl would be
engaged at any time and the escapement would click either 150 or
156 times per revolution. I have not seen a bicycle with 2.3
degree resolution. That's unusually fine. I can't imagine how
that sounds if the ratchet is audible.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/phillee/rbt/wtb2.jpg

Quoted message said:

I count 24 on the freehub body. It'd be 24 clicks, with all six
pawls clicking in sync.

Ooh, that's the ratchet? That is the weirdest set of ratchet ramps
I've seen. This designer likes belt, suspenders, and elastic
waistband. Not only does he try to load six pawls at once, but each
of these seem to have double engagement. I also have never seen a
round nosed ratchet pawl either. It's an interesting concept. With
machining tolerances of pawl carrier, pawls, and ratchet, simultaneous
contact is doubtful even without axle flex. With it, only one pawl
will bear the load, the rest n=being along for the ride.

This has all been done ages ago but then no one at Regina or
SunTour. for that matter, published their work. Without the knowledge
of history, it must be repeated again and again and...

Jobst Brandt