Lawyers lips

yawl changing the con tours?

googled at

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/skills/fixflat.htm

Not on the rear...

Are you planning on suing?

Josh McClure
Durst Cycles

Quoted message said:

Not on the rear...

Are you planning on suing?

Josh McClure
Durst Cycles

No. none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?

I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back offices
of Specialized.

Callistus Valerius said:

I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came

loose,

Quoted message said:

that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory

on

Quoted message said:

bikes.

....

Quoted message said:

none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?

First, how old is the bike? There was a blessed time when lawyers lips
did not exist.

Second, if by "kind of shallow" you mean the axle slot's depth, I just
measured one fork with lawyer lips and one without. The pre-lip fork
had an axle slot about 0.45" deep; the one with the lips, 0.75" deep.
The difference is for the lips to reach down below the quick release
parts.

Third, sometimes when you "really have to tighten it" it means the QR
mechanism needs disassembly and/or lubrication.

I'm assuming, of course, that you know how to use a quick release -
that it's not a wing nut!
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/HowTo/UseAQuickRelease.htm

Quoted message said:

I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back

offices

Quoted message said:

of Specialized.

I'd rather not have them. They protect people who haven't bothered to
learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.

I grind 'em off.

"Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not on the rear...

Are you planning on suing?

Josh McClure
Durst Cycles

No. none on the front either. The drop out seems kind of shallow. You
really have to tighten it. Does that seem normal?

I'd rather have the lawyers lips on my bike, and not in the back
offices
of Specialized.

Go back to rbr where you belong.

JF

Quoted message said:

....
I'd rather not have them [lawyers lips]. They protect people who haven't bothered to
learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.

I grind 'em off.

It took me less than a minute on each side with a Dremel tool to remove
the lips from a Cro-Moly fork.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Callistus Valerius said:

I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came loose,
that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory on
bikes.

Giant's 2003 alloy frame had them at the back, but their 2004 TCR carbon
frame doesn't. Both have them at the front, though.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

in kifer's article-lip's comes before "getting the tube out."

Quoted message said:

I'd rather not have them. They protect people who haven't bothered to
learn to work the lever, but they mean we all have to re-adjust the
front QR each time we use it. And it makes using my roof rack a pain.

I'd rather not have them either, and I've ground them off each of my
bikes that originally had them. However even if it makes using a roof
rack a pain there are benefits.

Last summer my girlfriend and I were out in Colorado on a
hiking/backpacking/cycling trip. We had our touring bikes on our roof
rack. While driving into Rocky Mountain National Park's Wild Basin
Ranger Station (on a horrible dirt road) Julie's Trek 520 (and older
model that never had Lawyer Lips), which had made it from Illinois,
fell off the rack. It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp. Only the bike bra kept the
bike still attached to the car.

Fortunately no damage was done, so I REALLY tightened down the rack's
(GM re-branded Thule) skewer mechanism and proceeded. Meanwhile my
Fuji Touring Series with LLs ground down to vestigial appendages was
just fine.

Things were fine for the next week or so, until we'd just completed a
ride on the Glenwood Canyon Bike Trail. I was getting tired of
fighting with the tightness of the rack's fork clamp, so before we
left the Hanging Lake parking area, I loosened the clamp slightly,
making it about as tight as the clamp on my bike. Big mistake!

Traveling east on I-70 somewhere around Eagle, suddenly cars started
backing away from us and flashing their headlights. Julie looked over
from the passenger's seat and saw her bike hanging perpendicular to
the car. Once again the bike bra had saved the day, but this time her
left front dropout was bent. We pulled over and threw the bike into
the back of the SUV. She's never put that bike on the roof rack again.

Quoted message said:

I grind 'em off.

So here's a dilemma. We picked up Julie's newest bike (Trek 1500 WSD)
just Thursday. I was working on it Friday (installing bottle cages, a
new cyclocomputer, removing excess reflectors, etc.) and was very
tempted to attack the LLs, a temptation I've thus far resisted. As
much as I hate them, I'm pretty sure Julie might be concerned if
they're removed. My thinking is now running toward grinding them down
just enough so that a properly adjusted skewer can be removed, but
leaving just enough material so that the bike will never be able to
work its way out of a roof rack. :-|

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Per John Everett:

Quoted message said:

It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.

Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
was the lawyer lips.

Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.

Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.
--
PeteCresswell

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Per John Everett:

Quoted message said:

It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.

Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
was the lawyer lips.

Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.

Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.
--
PeteCresswell

try lubricating the skewer mechanism!
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Per m-gineering:

Quoted message said:

try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
effective alternative to LocTite.

Seems counter-intuitive.

I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...

Can somebody explain?
--
PeteCresswell

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Per m-gineering:

Quoted message said:

try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
effective alternative to LocTite.

Seems counter-intuitive.

I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...

Can somebody explain?

Dear Pete,

Here's Sheldon's explanation:

"Dry threads are generally a bad idea, because they generate
too much friction when you tighten them. This prevents the
threads from screwing as tight as they should for a given
amount of torque, because so much of the torque is wasted
overcoming the friction of the dry threads."

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=g:thl3481497506d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=400DA4E3.8010804%40sheldonbrown.com

Carl Fogel

John Everett said:

Last summer my girlfriend and I were out in Colorado on a
hiking/backpacking/cycling trip. We had our touring bikes on our
roof rack. While driving into Rocky Mountain National Park's Wild
Basin Ranger Station (on a horrible dirt road) Julie's Trek 520 (and
older model that never had Lawyer Lips), which had made it from
Illinois, fell off the rack. It appeared the wobbling down the dirt
track had worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp. Only the bike
bra kept the bike still attached to the car.

From: "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding
it in place was the lawyer lips.

Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can
think of is vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.

Now, wait a minute. What about all those disk brake threads that
claim that a QR can't vibrate loose? That a properly used skewer
cannot come loose? If those guys are right, then obviously you two
are inept. Or, you're right and the other people making those claims
in those threads must be wrong.

Nah, there couldn't possibly be any validity to Annan's claims.
Perish the thought. The bike industry would never sell products with
design flaws in them, because the bike industry is run by omniscient
saints. What was I thinking?

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Per John Everett:

Quoted message said:

It appeared the wobbling down the dirt track had
worked the dropouts out of the fork clamp.

Twice I've found my front wheel loose enough that the only holding it in place
was the lawyer lips.

Don't know for sure how it got that way, but the only thing I can think of is
vibration from extended time on the car's bike rack.

Since the last time, I've been trying to train myself to rear the bike up, grab
the front wheel, and shake it a little every time I start to ride.

I've learned to do a pre-flight for stuff like that every ride. Now mostly it's
done without adding any time to what it already takes to wheel it around and get
on the thing.

Ron

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Per m-gineering:

Quoted message said:

try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
effective alternative to LocTite.

Seems counter-intuitive.

I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...

Can somebody explain?

Bolts and skewers work by stretch. By stretching the thing it creates tension
that keeps things in place and tight. Friction either of the threads of a bolt
or the cam mechanism in the QR causes the tightening force to be dissipated by
something other than stretching the fastener.

Ron

Per Tim McNamara:

Quoted message said:

Now, wait a minute. What about all those disk brake threads that
claim that a QR can't vibrate loose? That a properly used skewer
cannot come loose? If those guys are right, then obviously you two
are inept. Or, you're right and the other people making those claims

I wouldn't rule RCI on my part - i.e. *maybe* I'd changed a flat or something
and neglected to tighten up the skewer.

Technically possible...but, IMHO, unlikely.
--
PeteCresswell

Callistus Valerius said:

I discovered on my Specialized road bike, when my rear wheel came loose,
that it didn't have any lawyers lips. I thought these were mandatory on
bikes.

Not specifically mandated, only some type of secondary
retention device - for the front. It can be a clip or a lip
or one of dozens of different designs - so long as the
skewer isn't the sole device.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Per m-gineering:

Quoted message said:

try lubricating the skewer mechanism!

(Pete Cresswell) said:

I've heard a similar concept when people say that plenty of grease makes for an
effective alternative to LocTite.
Seems counter-intuitive.
I don't doubt it...just can't understand it...
Can somebody explain?

The skewer mechanism wants to translate the lever's motion
in to a lateral pull through the hub with its cam. Like
other simple machines, lubrication noticeably gives more of
that pull for a given input. Try it! Close your skewer as
you normally do, and then again with lubricated cam faces.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971