Latex vs. Butyl

Per Elmsäter said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.

Yes, but you'll never notice it.

Quoted message said:

Gives tires a better grip when cornering

We're talking about tubes, right?

Quoted message said:

Better puncture resistance ( tougher)

Strectches a bit, not tougher.

Quoted message said:

weighs less

Yes

Quoted message said:

costs more

Yes

Quoted message said:

Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

Ah, that's the bummer.

Art Harris

Per Elmsäter said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.

Maybe theoretical

Quoted message said:

Gives tires a better grip when cornering

No

Quoted message said:

Better puncture resistance ( tougher)

That's my impression

Quoted message said:

weighs less

No

Quoted message said:

costs more

Yes

Quoted message said:

Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

True

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:02:40 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

It'd really be interesting to hear what you all have to say on this matter.
Which statements above do you agree on and why? If you do agree can you also
explain why this is so? For instance how come an inner tube can make
cornering different.

Dear Per,

Yes, latex has lower rolling resistance, but you'd never notice it.

It's hard to see how an inner tube can improve cornering, but possibly
some insanely minute calculations would find that the tire/tube
comvination is slightly more flexible because you can get away with a
thinner latex tube.

The latex will have fewer impact flats because it's stretchier than
butyl--bang on pieces of equal thickness with a hammer, and the butyl
will split first.

So you can make the latex a little thinner and a little lighter before
worrying as much about impact flats.

So the latex tubes will weigh a bit less. but it will take an
impressive calculator to notice the improvement in rolling resistance
and rotating mass acceleration.

The increased price of latex tubes is rather more than can be
justified on objective grounds. They are therefore popular with riders
who like to have ever-so-slightly better equipment, either because it
feels good or because they're trying for extremely small improvements
measured by stopwatches or photo-finish cameras.

(They rarely weigh themselves with the accuracy that they apply to
their valve stems, but it's a harmless and pleasant hobby.)

Keeping all these slight advantages in mind will help when pumping the
latex tubes up--the thinner tubes lead to noticeably faster air loss.
That's the only way that you can normally tell whether a bicycle has
latex tubes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I was told Butyl tubes are hard to patch using self-adhesive patches?
They don't stick to them very well.
Rick in Tennessee

cycledogg said:

I was told Butyl tubes are hard to patch using self-adhesive patches?
They don't stick to them very well.

Anything is hard to patch using self-adhesive patches. Those things
are for kid's swimming pools. Get our your Remas and patch those tires
the right way.

Per Elmsäter says...

Quoted message said:

What are the pros and cons?

Quoted message said:

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

Sounds like you have done your homework. I don't think the benefits or
disadvantages are much to get excited about. You can get some of the
same pros and cons just by going to a lightweight butyl tube. I'm
running 28's with lightweight 18-23 size tubes. With these I get some
of the same pressure loss as I would with latex tubes. Haven't
punctured them in 700 miles, but I use semi-tough Continental GP 4-
Season tires. I would need to see proof of the first two points on your
list before I believed them. If there is a difference, it doesn't
register to my unsophisticated senses.

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:02:40 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

It'd really be interesting to hear what you all have to say on this matter.
Which statements above do you agree on and why? If you do agree can you also
explain why this is so? For instance how come an inner tube can make
cornering different.

Dear Per,

Here's a graph from Schwalbe of the air loss for butyl versus latex:

http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/tech_info/schlauch/?gesamt=29&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Seite=144&tn_mainPoint=TechnikInfos

It shows a 5 bar latex Monday inflation dropping 80% to 1 bar on
Friday, while the 5 bar butyl dropped only 20% to 4 bar (which sounds
like an excessive loss rate for butyl).

The Schwalbe stuff on the same page about puncture resistance leads me
to believe that they don't grow many goathead thorns in Germany. That
kind of puncture debris goes right through the tire tread itself, so
the thin tube on the other side stands no chance at all.

Peter Chisholm expects latex to bleed 20 psi per day:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/a77278b546e9bff4

Jobst has some practical comments on the rolling resistance and the
daily chore of pumping the tubes up:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/e75cd4654b25c265

The only cornering theory that I can find is that latex tubes are
often used in tubular tires, whose design allows lower pressures and
perhaps better cornering through the improved suspension effect.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Per Elmsäter said:

Lower rolling resistance.

Possibly yes. The difference should be very small though.

Quoted message said:

Gives tires a better grip when cornering

You're supposed to install it on the inside.

Quoted message said:

Better puncture resistance (tougher)

Possibly? Common claim, but I tend to believe that when whatever it is
that has penetrated the tyre, it will sooner or later puncture the tube.

Quoted message said:

weighs less

No. Light-weight butyl tubes are just as light.

Quoted message said:

costs more

Yes, same or bit more than light-weight butyl tubes.

Quoted message said:

Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

Especially on a road bike, you can expect to be pumping before every
ride.

-as

Quoted message said:

Here's a graph from Schwalbe of the air loss for butyl versus latex:

http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/tech_info/schlauch/?gesamt=29&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Seite=144&tn_mainPoint=TechnikInfos

It shows a 5 bar latex Monday inflation dropping 80% to 1 bar on
Friday, while the 5 bar butyl dropped only 20% to 4 bar (which sounds
like an excessive loss rate for butyl).

Umm, Carl, the graph I see on that page is for 14 days elapsed, not 4.

Mark

Mark Janeba said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a graph from Schwalbe of the air loss for butyl versus latex:

http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/tech_info/schlauch/?gesamt=29&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Seite=144&tn_mainPoint=TechnikInfos

It shows a 5 bar latex Monday inflation dropping 80% to 1 bar on
Friday, while the 5 bar butyl dropped only 20% to 4 bar (which sounds
like an excessive loss rate for butyl).

Umm, Carl, the graph I see on that page is for 14 days elapsed, not 4.

Mark

Dear Mark,

Whew!

That explains the rapid 20% pressure drop in butyl.

I mistook it for days, but you're right--it's 0-2-4-7-10-14 days.

Thanks--this clearly justifies buying a larger monitor, not bifocals.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Per Elmsäter a écrit :

Quoted message said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

All true. Plus can be pink, blue or green, maybe more colors.
Black is drab.
Also, typically run half a bar lower - comfort, not performance change.

Quoted message said:

It'd really be interesting to hear what you all have to say on this matter.
Which statements above do you agree on and why? If you do agree can you also
explain why this is so? For instance how come an inner tube can make
cornering different.
à

Beware of chatty, wrong replies, postulating from admitted ignorance.

Ciao.

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Andy Marchant-Shapiro said:

Quoted message said:

I was told Butyl tubes are hard to patch using self-adhesive
patches? They don't stick to them very well.

Quoted message said:

Anything is hard to patch using self-adhesive patches. Those things
are for kid's swimming pools. Get our your Remas and patch those
tires the right way.

And while you're at it, here's primer on how to:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Jobst Brandt

Per Elmsäter said:

What are the pros and cons?

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

It'd really be interesting to hear what you all have to say on this matter.
Which statements above do you agree on and why? If you do agree can you also
explain why this is so? For instance how come an inner tube can make
cornering different.

Others answered most of that stuff.

One particularly bad thing I noticed in a brief period when I tried
latex tubes -- if you get a flat, it can very often become a blowout.
This may not blow the tube off the rim, but what you get is a 2-3 foot
long tear in the tube. It's a total goner; no hope whatsoever of
patching it. So if you pinch flat (and yes, you can pinch flat), the
odds that you're 100% gonna be using a spare are fairly high. Patching
just isn't an option, in many cases.

This happened to me about 50% of the time I got flats -- which was say
3 of 6, before I got tired of having to pump up my tires daily, rather
than weekly.

Mark Janeba said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a graph from Schwalbe of the air loss for butyl versus
latex:

http://tinyurl.com/q3vt5

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It shows a 5 bar latex Monday inflation dropping 80% to 1 bar on
Friday, while the 5 bar butyl dropped only 20% to 4 bar (which
sounds like an excessive loss rate for butyl).

Quoted message said:

Umm, Carl, the graph I see on that page is for 14 days elapsed, not 4.

I don't believe the chart in the least. On the one hand, there is no
indication what "weight" of latex or butyl tubes are used for the test
and why isn't it a line graph tracking pressure continuously possibly
every hour. Are these guys in the PR department or the tire
laboratory?

As I mentioned, I have pumped tires to 100psi before leaving
California for a tour of the alps and never pumped once. To make up
for that, when returning 5 weeks later I rode further without pumping
for another week with butyl tubes. I had enough of thin latex tubes
in the days before good clinchers were offered. Fortunately I was
young and strong... and everybody pumped daily.

.... and you wonder why I built a high class double acting floor pump.

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/ASSYINST_BW_.pdf

Jobst Brandt

I've tried six different latex tubes, and they all busted after only a
few miles, some after only a few feet. And all the same way, they self
destructed. Blew apart at the seams. I even tried tubes larger than the
tire, hopng this would reduce the stess. No good. And yes, I did apply
talc.

AFAIC, Latex may be great for condoms, but not bicycles.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http "colon-slash-slash" geocities "dot" com "slash" czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

From: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

And while you're at it, here's primer on
how to:

Quoted message said:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

Thanks Jobst for the link to that article, I never thought of using a
shaving razor to smooth the seam on a tube! I'll have to try that.

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http "colon-slash-slash" geocities "dot" com "slash" czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Bill Lloyd said:

Quoted message said:

What are the pros and cons?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've heard that Latex has
Lower rolling resistance.
Gives tires a better grip when cornering
Better puncture resistance ( tougher)
weighs less
costs more
Doesn't hold the tire pressure more'n a day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It'd really be interesting to hear what you all have to say on this
matter. Which statements above do you agree on and why? If you do
agree can you also explain why this is so? For instance how come an
inner tube can make cornering different.

Quoted message said:

Others answered most of that stuff.

Quoted message said:

One particularly bad thing I noticed in a brief period when I tried
latex tubes -- if you get a flat, it can very often become a
blowout. This may not blow the tube off the rim, but what you get
is a 2-3 foot long tear in the tube.

I think you'll need to explain that. What causes the "blowout" and
what causes a 2-3 foot tear?

Quoted message said:

It's a total goner; no hope whatsoever of patching it. So if you
pinch flat (and yes, you can pinch flat), the odds that you're 100%
gonna be using a spare are fairly high. Patching just isn't an
option, in many cases.

Quoted message said:

This happened to me about 50% of the time I got flats -- which was
say 3 of 6, before I got tired of having to pump up my tires daily,
rather than weekly.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/blowouts.html

"Pilot error!" Learn how to mount tires.

Jobst Brandt

Chris Corner said:

I've tried six different latex tubes, and they all busted after only
a few miles, some after only a few feet. And all the same way, they
self destructed. Blew apart at the seams. I even tried tubes
larger than the tire, hoping this would reduce the stress. No
good. And yes, I did apply talc.

Quoted message said:

AFAIK, Latex may be great for condoms, but not bicycles.

You must realize that there are many riders who use these tubes. What
is it you don't understand about installing a tube? Are the tubes you
used nominally the same as the tire, or are you using a 20mm tube in a
2.5" MTB tire? To what do you attribute these instant failures?

This whole scenario sounds so vague and imaginary. Xplain!

Quoted message said:

- - Comments and opinions compliments of, "Your Friendly
Neighborhood Wheelman"

Quoted message said:

My web Site:
http "colon-slash-slash" geocities "dot" com "slash" czcorner

How about just listing the address:

http://geocities.com/czcorner/

However, it has nothing about tubes or tires. If it's hidden in some
link, you might post that, otherwise one might assume this is a troll.

Quoted message said:

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

aka:

[email hidden]

Jobst Brandt

cycledogg said:

I was told Butyl tubes are hard to patch using self-adhesive patches?
They don't stick to them very well.

I don't know about that but there's another thing that puts me off latex:

It's risky to put much air into a latex tube outside of the tyre when
locating the hole to repair.

~PB