Latex Tubes

I have had the same experience with latex tubes; did not affect performance at all.

Steve Scarich

MSA said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area about
4" long.

Yep, I've had that a couple of times too with latex Michelin inner tubes. They ballooned close to
the valve, but if you put air in them when they were already inside the outer tire, everything was
fine. I found it pretty weird, but they lasted as long as any other inner tire would do.

--
Mathias De Belder

MSA said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area about
4" long.

You don't need (and can't use) that much air to give them a little form for mounting. I've had
certain tire and latex tube combinations that tended to be quite "sticky" against each other, and
proper mounting and tube seating proved to be extremely difficult. Jobst Brandt can kiss my ass. I
put some talc on the combo and that was the end of that.

I've used tubes that had been ballooned -- it happened looking for holes/leaks. It didn't seem to
hurt them as far as performance goes, but I doubt it is a good idea -- avoid this because they are
permanently deformed in the region.

Quoted message said:

The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these were the same.

Balloons are made of latex. This is "normal," other than tubes are not intended to be used as
balloons. They make a very loud pop if you push it -- much louder than regular party ballons. I
don't recommend experimenting unless you want your ears to ring.

Quoted message said:

I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly normal for latex
tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown up...that's how strong
they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

It's normal *outside* a tire/rim -- it has no meaning regarding the viability of the tube other than
it proves they hold air. However, the tube should not be undersized such that they "balloon" inside
the normal tire/rim.

Anecdote: I once had 25c tires (the old Avocet FasGrip 30 700x28) with "too small" latex tubes
inside. These wheels would lose an unusual amount of pressure over the course of around half a day
and then hold in a manner similar to normal latex (which is to say they still lose air faster than
butyl). Searches for holes in the tubes proved vain. The tube/tire/rim combo was reassembled and
brought to riding pressure. The entire assembly was dunked into a tub of water. Across a
circumferential area of 3-4 inches, thousands of tiny air bubbles exuded from the sidewalls of the
tire. My conclusion was that the tubes were too small and they were ballooning inside the tire. The
wall thickness of the latex had been made thin enough such that it "exhaled" quite distinctly. Latex
tubes rated to 28c were then installed and the problem vanished. Likewise, the "small" tubes were
installed with a smaller tire width and the problem vanished in that case too.

Moral of the story: use latex tubes properly rated and matched to the tire. Given that, there should
be no difficulty whatsoever.

Think twice about using latex. They are more expensive and a bit more problematic than butyl. Air-B
claimed that rolling resistance is superior for latex (and they can be a *tiny* bit lighter). That's
quite likely true, but I know I primarily use them for races. I could not justify them for anything
else, and even that is questionable.

this is normal- blown these up with your mouth only before having them inside the tire.

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area about
4" long. The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these were the
same. I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly normal for
latex tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown up...that's how
strong they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

TIA

Mark

I don't know what I did wrong, but I tried 4 of them in the mid 90s (when I first began to consider
clinchers) and all 4 of them popped before I could ride with them. Today's ultra-light butyl tubes
are every bit as light and supple but are a lot more durable and easy to repair. BTW, I would start
looking for a patch kit. I don't think the typical patch kit will work, although I could be wrong.

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area about
4" long. The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these were the
same. I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly normal for
latex tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown up...that's how
strong they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

TIA

Mark

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MSA said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area
about 4" long.

You don't need (and can't use) that much air to give them a little form

for mounting. I've had certain tire

Quoted message said:

and latex tube combinations that tended to be quite "sticky" against each

other, and proper mounting and tube

Quoted message said:

seating proved to be extremely difficult. Jobst Brandt can kiss my ass.

I put some talc on the combo and

Quoted message said:

that was the end of that.

I've used tubes that had been ballooned -- it happened looking for

holes/leaks. It didn't seem to hurt them

Quoted message said:

as far as performance goes, but I doubt it is a good idea -- avoid this

because they are permanently deformed

Quoted message said:

in the region.

Quoted message said:

The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these were the same.

Balloons are made of latex. This is "normal," other than tubes are not

intended to be used as balloons. They

Quoted message said:

make a very loud pop if you push it -- much louder than regular party

ballons. I don't recommend

Quoted message said:

experimenting unless you want your ears to ring.

Quoted message said:

I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly normal for latex
tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown up...that's how
strong they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

It's normal *outside* a tire/rim -- it has no meaning regarding the

viability of the tube other than it proves

Quoted message said:

they hold air. However, the tube should not be undersized such that they

"balloon" inside the normal

Quoted message said:

tire/rim.

Anecdote: I once had 25c tires (the old Avocet FasGrip 30 700x28) with "too small"

latex tubes inside. These wheels

Quoted message said:

would lose an unusual amount of pressure over the course of around half a

day and then hold in a manner

Quoted message said:

similar to normal latex (which is to say they still lose air faster than

butyl). Searches for holes in the

Quoted message said:

tubes proved vain. The tube/tire/rim combo was reassembled and brought to

riding pressure. The entire

Quoted message said:

assembly was dunked into a tub of water. Across a circumferential area of

3-4 inches, thousands of tiny air

Quoted message said:

bubbles exuded from the sidewalls of the tire. My conclusion was that the

tubes were too small and they were

Quoted message said:

ballooning inside the tire. The wall thickness of the latex had been made

thin enough such that it "exhaled"

Quoted message said:

quite distinctly. Latex tubes rated to 28c were then installed and the

problem vanished. Likewise, the

Quoted message said:

"small" tubes were installed with a smaller tire width and the problem

vanished in that case too.

Quoted message said:

Moral of the story: use latex tubes properly rated and matched to the

tire. Given that, there should be no

Quoted message said:

difficulty whatsoever.

Think twice about using latex. They are more expensive and a bit more

problematic than butyl. Air-B claimed

Quoted message said:

that rolling resistance is superior for latex (and they can be a *tiny*

bit lighter). That's quite likely

Quoted message said:

true, but I know I primarily use them for races. I could not justify them

for anything else, and even that is

Quoted message said:

questionable.

OK, good comments. Now can I ask opinions on whether you think Latex is better/worse than butyl? I
ordered them without realising and am wondering if I would be better off with plain old butyl..I get
these won't last long...and if they do puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather than a
psssssssss.!

Mark

"judibob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

this is normal- blown these up with your mouth only before having them inside the tire.

"MSA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area
about 4" long. The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these
were the same. I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly
normal for latex tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown
up...that's how strong they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

TIA

Mark

OK, good comments. Now can I ask opinions on whether you think Latex is better/worse than butyl? I
ordered them without realising and am wondering if I would be better off with plain old butyl..I get
these won't last long...and if they do puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather than a
psssssssss.!

Mark

Years ago I tried latex tubes and, during one 3 hour ride, I had THREE flats including the first
front tire flat I ever had. The front went out at the bottom of a steep hill. My guess is that the
bead of the tire moved a bit as the tire compressed and the "ultra-thin" latex snuck under it
resulting in a pinch flat. That, combined with the fact that they seemed to stick to everything
unless heavily talced and lost pressure overnight sent me rushing back to butyl. I think the
perceived ride improvement is all in the mind of the rider. Just not worth the hassle IMO.

Tim McTeague

Quoted message said:

OK, good comments. Now can I ask opinions on whether you think Latex is better/worse than butyl? I
ordered them without realising and am

wondering

Quoted message said:

if I would be better off with plain old butyl..I get these won't last long...and if they do
puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather

than

Quoted message said:

a psssssssss.!

Mark

MSA said:

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, good comments. Now can I ask opinions on whether you think Latex is better/worse than butyl? I
ordered them without realising and am wondering if I would be better off with plain old butyl..I
get these won't last long...and if they do puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather than a
psssssssss.!

Mark

Use them till you get tired of re-inflateing your tires before every ride... I used Air-B tubes 10
or so years ago and they were just as fragile as everything you ever heard about latex... I replaced
them with Contis ... eventually the latex thing became a PITA and the contis became spare tubes. I
recently had cause to put one in my wifes bike.. still holds air about as well as it ever did...
(though that could be just luck)

I loved them back in the early days of clinchers. The tires 15 years ago were pretty stiff and latex
seemed to give a little livelier ride. I did have occasional weird tube failures, but, all in all, I
liked the feel of them.

BUT, with the high quality clinchers now available, I don't think latex is worth the extra money,
along with occasional problems mentioned in other posts.

Try any of the new expensive clinchers (Hutchinson Carbon Comps, Vredestein, Pariba, etc.) and you
will be amazed. Of course, you can get them 50% off at many on-line shops, so they are not so
expensive after all.

Steve Scarich

Nick Burns said:

BTW, I would start looking for a patch kit. I don't think the typical patch kit will work,
although I could be wrong.

It works.

--
Mathias De Belder

MSA said:

Quoted message said:

Now can I ask opinions on whether you think Latex is better/worse than butyl?

*You* have to decide what "better" means. They (latex) have lower rolling resistance than butyl,
they *may* be marginally lighter, and they *may* have a slight edge in puncture resistance.
Personally, I can't see them as anything but race tubes. Butyl is cheaper and works quite nicely in
my experience. Butyls do not require inflation nearly as often.

It used to be that I could buy Air-B's at 50g/tube and combine them with 150g Paperlite tires and
Rox rim strips -- that setup was about 200g lower than my training setup and likely had quite low
rolling resistance. That was okay for races with very good to excellent pavement.

Nowadays you can get Performance "lunar light" butyl tubes at 50 g. It would seem that rolling
resistance would be the only remaining reason to hassle with these. I have no knowledge of the
magnitude or significance of this difference. I certainly can't claim to be able to "feel it." I
suppose the difference between first and second place is the width of a tire -- how important is
that to *you* as an amateur? (A bunch of dorks will probably howl about how latex technically isn't
worth it, but they'll likely be as short on evidence as I am, and it ends up being an individual
judgement call.)

If you don't race, my opinion is that the decision should be easy. It is for me. I don't even
consider latex for non-race events. That doesn't mean my race wheels don't occasionally get used for
training rides -- I don't stress too much either way once the stuff is paid for and I need to pick
the shortest path out of the house and onto the bike.

Quoted message said:

I get these won't last long...and if they do puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather
than a psssssssss.!

They don't really seem to flat or last differently than butyls and I have not had unusual
experience with them, contrary to what others seem to have. (I think Air-B's were excellent, as
latex tubes go.) They seem to "last" just fine if you store them with the respect their high price
calls for. When not mounted, I store them along with my extra tires in plastic bags in a plastic
tub with a cover. I don't have problems. I'm slowly using up and purging all the experimental stuff
I've tried over the years. If in doubt, throw stuff away. I've seen butyl tubes with (ozone?)
cracks in them too.

I'm tending to move away from experimenting and simply achieving a reliable setup I don't need to
hassle with. That leaves more time for riding and less messing around with nuts and bolts. One thing
I'm disillusioned with about racing is the constant messing with the hardware. I just don't have the
time anymore. It's probably better to spend 2 hours training than taking a couple ounces off the
bike. It is supposed to be *fun* for amateurs.

I agree 100%. Some of my favorites (not such great values, I justify the expense because I like the
feel) are the Conti Supersonic, Vittoria UltraSpeed, Pariba Prologue, and any Veloflex feel better
thatn all but the best silk sew-ups. Michelin Pro Race Light and the Hutchinson Lights are close
too, but the are stiffer on the center to allow better wear. I typically run Hutchinson on the back
and a V-flex Pave or Conti SS on the front. I lost a pair of GL330 laced on ZIPP cf hubs to a theif
and I just could not justify a direct replacement. Truthfully, the final factor that kept me from
continuing use of sew-ups was the terrible time in getting inventory. I used Vittoria CXs almost
exclusively because all of my other favorite training tires (Neo Pro SP1 and a Vittoria that was the
same as the CX but with a buty innertube, I can't remember the name) were impossible to find. I
still have a few CXs and a GEL280 on a Record hub (pre 1985, with the black clip that covers the
grease port) but I have no rear wheel to use with it. I suppose if the right circumstances appeared
I could use a clincher in the back. Hmm, maybe I should look for a mate for it on ebay...

Anyway, in summary, I never use latex on my bike.

"FlashSteve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I loved them back in the early days of clinchers. The tires 15 years ago

were

Quoted message said:

pretty stiff and latex seemed to give a little livelier ride. I did have occasional weird tube
failures, but, all in all, I liked the feel of them.

BUT, with the high quality clinchers now available, I don't think latex is worth the extra money,
along with occasional problems mentioned in other

posts.

Quoted message said:

Try any of the new expensive clinchers (Hutchinson Carbon Comps,

Vredestein,

Quoted message said:

Pariba, etc.) and you will be amazed. Of course, you can get them 50% off

at

Quoted message said:

many on-line shops, so they are not so expensive after all.

Steve Scarich

What is wrong with talc? I thought everyone used it?

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MSA said:

I have just received 3 LATEX long valve 'racing' innertubes that I bought online. I was in the
process of putting a little air in one prior to fitting it when it ballooned up in one area
about 4" long.

You don't need (and can't use) that much air to give them a little form

for mounting. I've had certain tire

Quoted message said:

and latex tube combinations that tended to be quite "sticky" against each

other, and proper mounting and tube

Quoted message said:

seating proved to be extremely difficult. Jobst Brandt can kiss my ass.

I put some talc on the combo and

Quoted message said:

that was the end of that.

I've used tubes that had been ballooned -- it happened looking for

holes/leaks. It didn't seem to hurt them

Quoted message said:

as far as performance goes, but I doubt it is a good idea -- avoid this

because they are permanently deformed

Quoted message said:

in the region.

Quoted message said:

The latex looked wafer thin in this area. I tries the other 2 tubes and these were the same.

Balloons are made of latex. This is "normal," other than tubes are not

intended to be used as balloons. They

Quoted message said:

make a very loud pop if you push it -- much louder than regular party

ballons. I don't recommend

Quoted message said:

experimenting unless you want your ears to ring.

Quoted message said:

I emailed the shop where I bought them and they said that this was perfectly normal for latex
tubes and mentioned "have you ever seen a contraceptive that has been blown up...that's how
strong they are".

The shop has said that they will refund the moeny if I'm not happy, but I will keep them as long
as they are OK.

Any experiences of LATEX tubes, is this normal, will they be OK?

It's normal *outside* a tire/rim -- it has no meaning regarding the

viability of the tube other than it proves

Quoted message said:

they hold air. However, the tube should not be undersized such that they

"balloon" inside the normal

Quoted message said:

tire/rim.

Anecdote: I once had 25c tires (the old Avocet FasGrip 30 700x28) with "too small"

latex tubes inside. These wheels

Quoted message said:

would lose an unusual amount of pressure over the course of around half a

day and then hold in a manner

Quoted message said:

similar to normal latex (which is to say they still lose air faster than

butyl). Searches for holes in the

Quoted message said:

tubes proved vain. The tube/tire/rim combo was reassembled and brought to

riding pressure. The entire

Quoted message said:

assembly was dunked into a tub of water. Across a circumferential area of

3-4 inches, thousands of tiny air

Quoted message said:

bubbles exuded from the sidewalls of the tire. My conclusion was that the

tubes were too small and they were

Quoted message said:

ballooning inside the tire. The wall thickness of the latex had been made

thin enough such that it "exhaled"

Quoted message said:

quite distinctly. Latex tubes rated to 28c were then installed and the

problem vanished. Likewise, the

Quoted message said:

"small" tubes were installed with a smaller tire width and the problem

vanished in that case too.

Quoted message said:

Moral of the story: use latex tubes properly rated and matched to the

tire. Given that, there should be no

Quoted message said:

difficulty whatsoever.

Think twice about using latex. They are more expensive and a bit more

problematic than butyl. Air-B claimed

Quoted message said:

that rolling resistance is superior for latex (and they can be a *tiny*

bit lighter). That's quite likely

Quoted message said:

true, but I know I primarily use them for races. I could not justify them

for anything else, and even that is

Quoted message said:

questionable.

MSA said:

and if they do puncture it will be a spectacular blow-out rather than a psssssssss.!

No, it won't be. Only tubes that have somehow escaped the tyre will go bang.

---------

I'd still like to hear more comparisons between latex and ultralight butyl (70g 700x18/23) regarding
the air holding and ride qualities. I have to top-up my Michelin UL tubed tyres every day anyway -
which I don't mind. I may be tempted to try latex again* if the rolling resistance or feel really
was better, but not if tyres went flat after five hours! (for sake of long rides or two rides in one
day, etc).

* I've only ever tried latex tubes with average cheap tyres (daft, I know - some years ago now) -
and got no fewer punctures than usual, by the way. I'm now using Vittoria Open Corsas.

~PB

Mathias De Belder said:

Nick Burns said:

BTW, I would start looking for a patch kit. I don't think the typical patch kit will work,
although I could be wrong.

It works.

I have raced on latex inner tubes for years. They must be replaced each season: they dry out and
loose their flexibility. I STRONGLY advise against Pariba (branch of Vredestein). I have three inner
tubes completely split during races (blowing the tyre off the rim). Twice I received replacements
from Vredestsin but the last time they claimed that I had incorrectly mounted the tyre AND that
defects in these sort of inner tubes could not exist.

Needless to say it was correctly mounted: I had raced several times on the wheel before the blow out
(in the break) and no one from my club or district will ever use Pariba again!

Try them either from Michelin or Vittoria. Oh yes: a little air is possible to gain form for
mounting - blow it in by mouth!

Justin

"Justin Lewis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mathias De Belder said:

Nick Burns said:

BTW, I would start looking for a patch kit. I don't think the typical patch kit will work,
although I could be wrong.

It works.

I have raced on latex inner tubes for years. They must be replaced each season: they dry out and
loose their flexibility. I STRONGLY advise against Pariba (branch of Vredestein). I have three
inner tubes completely split during races (blowing the tyre off the rim). Twice I received
replacements from Vredestsin but the last time they claimed that I had incorrectly mounted the
tyre AND that defects in these sort of inner tubes could not exist.

Needless to say it was correctly mounted: I had raced several times on the wheel before the blow
out (in the break) and no one from my club or district will ever use Pariba again!

Try them either from Michelin or Vittoria. Oh yes: a little air is possible to gain form for
mounting - blow it in by mouth!

Justin

Excellent responses...thank you very much. Yes I am an active racer, both TT's and road racing, but
I don't think I'll bother with the latex anymore. The disadvantages seem to outweigh the advantages
so it's back to trusty butyl. I only got onto Latex because it was all the dealer had at the time in
long valves, I probably wouldn't have gone for them by choice.

I did initially inflate by mouth but where the tubes had been so tightly rolled there was a
section that was stuck together that I wanted to part before inserting into the tyre...that's when
I gave it 1/2 a pump with the track pump. The tube inflated in that 4" area before the other part
unstuck itself!

Right, off to buy some long valve butyl's...thanks guys.

--
Mark

"Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak"

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What is wrong with talc? I thought everyone used it?

Nick Burns? Yeah, right. Anyway, pasted below is the gospel according to Uncle Jobst.

Tim McTeague
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 8b.11 Talcum Powder for Tubes and Tires From: Jobst Brandt
<[email hidden]> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:54:17 PST

Quoted message said:

I've been told since my first bike that I should liberally dust the tube in talcum powder before
installing it. I've believe that this may have reduced the number of flats I've had recently.

Talcum is one of the more durable urban legends. There is no benefit in putting talcum or substitute
powder on a tube or in a tire. The practice has come to bicycle tires the same way tire treads that
are miniature replicas of automobile treads have... if it's good for cars, it must be good for
bicycles. Trucks (and formerly cars) use talcum or graphite powder between tire and tube, because
without it, the two can vulcanize from the heat of rolling. This often makes tube removal
destructive, leaving tube fragments stuck in the tire casing.

Bicycles do not generate enough heat to vulcanize tubes, so they can be removed from the tire
without problem. Other than that, talcum has no effect on punctures other than to release air faster
when one occurs. A tube stuck to the casing will retain air for a considerable distance after a
thorn penetration because the thorn that penetrates plugs the casing hole leaving the tube hole with
no outlet. This is especially true for snake bites. I have found such flats the day after when they
have gone flat over night. Without powder, a tube will stick adequately to most clincher tires in
about 100 miles.

Corn starch is no better than talcum powder, the only difference being that it is water soluble, but
then who cares. Talcum also cakes up when wet, although it doesn't dissolve.

A tube cannot move in a tire when inflated, regardless of what powder is used, because, no
translational forces exist, on top of which the holding force between tube and casing is large. That
talcum prevents damage when mounting a tire is also not the case, because the pinch occurs when the
last part of the bead is being popped onto the rim. This can cause a pinch with or without a tire
iron, and powder will not protect a tube from lying in the gap if it hasn't been pushed into the
tire adequately.

The reason tubes have talcum powder inside is that in manufacture, they become hot enough that,
otherwise, they could become inseparably stuck when folded. That is why most butyl tubes have
talcum inside.

Quoted message said:

The reason tubes have talcum powder inside is that in manufacture, they become hot enough that,
otherwise, they could become inseparably stuck when folded. That is why most butyl tubes have
talcum inside.

I thought that talcum was to make the bead slippery enough so that when you mount the tire/tube and
inflate it, it pushes out the same distance on every part of the rim. Evenness really. I used soap
last time, works great.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training