Latest LA video

Good point. I was wondering the same because I got the same
impression, that this was something new to him. Certainly
his ITT performance in the Tour de Georgia represented good
form but it will be interesting to see if it's truly
material against the stronger European teams. Although the
US competition did show itself quite strong.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour
efforts that is being broadcast just prior to the noon
bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show

him

Quoted message said:

in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to
look at as he pedals and breathes. The interesting thing
to me is that Lance is talking

as

Quoted message said:

if he has not used this kind of feedback before. That
leaves me wondering just how much he could see during the
testing in past wind tunnel efforts. Anyhow, the equipment
they show him using will even allow him to optimize his
breathing rhythm (or at least have a better idea of the
actual cost of all of his position and clothing changes
inclusiding his breathing).

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the
past and I am

not

Quoted message said:

positive but this video now leads me to believe this is
new to him. [censored], this means he still has a shot at
improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich

would

Quoted message said:

be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much
his gut is

slowing

Quoted message said:

him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing but
why is Lance

the

Quoted message said:

only guy that seems to have the budget to use these
sessions and have all

of

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets,
wheels etc.).

BTW,

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word
on that?

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour
efforts that is being broadcast just prior to the noon
bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him in the wind
tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that
Lance is talking as if he has not used this kind of
feedback before.

He has, or at least nearly all of it.

Quoted message said:

I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the only
guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions
and have all of this special equipment (custom skinsuits,
bars, helmets, wheels etc.).

What gives you that impression?

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word
on that?

It was mentioned in the first episode and it's probably the
one he's using for testing now.

-WG

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the
past and I am not positive but this video now leads me to
believe this is new to him. [censored], this means he still has
a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich would be
using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his
gut is slowing him down. This sucks. I love technology in
bike racing but why is Lance the only guy that seems to
have the budget to use these sessions and have all of this
special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels
etc.). BTW, I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet.
Any word on that?

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of
your ass ?

Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work
too, except it's not televised ?

Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was
Kunich your teacher ?

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your
ass ? Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of
work too, except it's not televised ? Are you a specialist
in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your teacher ?

All valid questions.

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, Chris

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour
efforts that is

being

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro.
So far, they show

him

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to
look at as he pedals and breathes. The interesting thing
to me is that Lance is

talking as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if he has not used this kind of feedback before.

He has, or at least nearly all of it.

I don't believe that the rider had any instrumentation
available to him before. I don't think that it would be
worth a whole lot except when you're trying to get
EVERYTHING LAST bit of drag. Everyone else is limited by the
power output they have. The top pros all put out pretty much
the same power so the difference is in the aerodynamic drag.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the
only guy that seems to have the budget to use these
sessions and have

all of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets,
wheels etc.).

What gives you that impression?

Ullrich just finished complete wind tunnel testing at MIT
if I recall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word
on that?

It was mentioned in the first episode and it's probably
the one he's using for testing now.

There's no reason to believe that skin suits, aero
helmets and drag reducing paint jobs has any practical
value in a road TT. Remember that when they put LeMond
into the wind tunnel to test aero bars that he gained
almost nothing at all. It is likely that Greg gained more
from being able to relax on the elbow rests than he did
from the "improved" position.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zkdnc.12665>

Quoted message said:

There's no reason to believe that skin suits, aero helmets
and drag

reducing

Quoted message said:

paint jobs has any practical value in a road TT.

They do for the equipment sponsors!

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is
the first time. Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it
hasn't happened.

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your
ass ? Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind
of work too, except it's not televised ? Are you a
specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich
your teacher ?

All valid questions.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour
efforts that is being broadcast just prior to the noon
bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him in the wind
tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that
Lance is talking as if he has not used this kind of
feedback before. That leaves me wondering just how much he
could see during the testing in past wind tunnel efforts.
Anyhow, the equipment they show him using will even allow
him to optimize his breathing rhythm (or at least have a
better idea of the actual cost of all of his position and
clothing changes inclusiding his breathing).

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the
past and I am not positive but this video now leads me to
believe this is new to him. [censored], this means he still has
a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich would be
using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his
gut is slowing him down. This sucks. I love technology in
bike racing but why is Lance the only guy that seems to
have the budget to use these sessions and have all of this
special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels
etc.). BTW, I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet.
Any word on that?

I think they show the prototype in one or two shots in the
Lance Chronicles. It appears almost identical to the old
fairing "helmet", but with a layer of foam inside. I suspect
it will be just a bit thicker than the old fairing because
of that, but externally will look very similar.

Understand that Lance is chasing after incremental gains
with this stuff, and the two reasons that he's the only guy
to have access to this stuff are that he is a proven winner
who is connected to top-flight industry sponsors (Nike,
Giro, Trek, etc.) with deep pockets, and he has taken an
interest in this kind of very particular equipment
preparation.

At this point Ullrich is dropping out of races and going
back into training. It could be a big psych-out for some
reason, and he still has to be a favourite rider, but while
Lance is showing every sign of preparedness and fitness
(perhaps also a psych-job; maybe knowing that this is the
year when his opponents are fairly expectantly hoping for
some age-induced weakness, he's made a goal of winning his
early performances), Jan is showing every sign of
unreadiness.

Still can't believe Lance lost that 5 kg in one day during
the TT last year,

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

"Randy Walton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this
is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't
happened.

If you do a search on Amit's articles you will see that he
is often making [censored] remarks like that. He spreads it
around fairly thoroughly though so, no harm done. It's all
part of the RBR experience.

Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of
your ass ? Will it ever occur to you that others do
this kind of work too, except it's not televised ? Are
you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was
Kunich your teacher ?

All valid questions.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in
the past and I am

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

positive but this video now leads me to believe this is
new to him.

[censored],

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this means he still has a shot at improving at the ITT
whereas Ullrich

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much
his gut is

slowing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing
but why is Lance

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only guy that seems to have the budget to use these
sessions and have

all of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets,
wheels etc.).

BTW,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word
on that?

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of
your ass ?

No, by all means carry on yourself.

Quoted message said:

Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work
too, except it's not televised ?

"This kind of work" like a skinsuit from Nike designed from
all new fabric and design and only available for that "other
rider"? Or are you talking about the Deda bars that are also
designed with wind tunnel feedback and contracted to be
available only for USPS? Perhaps these other riders also
have helmet designers providing entirely exclusive and yes,
designed wholly from wind tunnel testing on "that other"
athlete? I am not even going to count the Trek TT frame that
was designed in the wind tunnel for Lance since it is no
longer an exclusive item and would not fall under "wind
tunnel resource budget" although it may have the while under
development. Please tell me of any other riders that have
any custom and exclusive gear that was designed in the wind
tunnel with the recipient on the bike for testing and
development. You only have to name a few examples to prove
your point, or did you have one at all? Maybe your
clairvoyance (of the "video" variety?) allows you to
intuitively know how wrong I am. For the benefit of others
though, why not just post a bit of info to clear things up?

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show up
in wind tunnels to test their positions and tweak the
equipment available to them? Did yo notice in your zeal to
post your tepid flame that I was stating Armstrong has the
biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If you can
show any evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong on that
point, then show the eveidence or at least state what you
are talking about. What does televising it have to do with
anything other than making it a current topic? Who cares
whether any other athlete has their tunnel work televised?
Did you simply *assume* that I was stating that only LA has
the budget for *any* wind

where any other athlete has as much custom equipment
designed exclusively for that athlete or any evidence at all
that they spend even half as much (rather than simply
scheduling a few sessions like most teams have been doing
for many years for their top GC men).

Quoted message said:

Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ?

I don't need the video. Don't you think you should be more
concerned with your own lack "clairvoyance" and weak
analytical skills (or is it just poor communication)? Oh,
(drum role please) is this simply a weak pot shot from one
of the local [censored] known for just this kind of arrogant
hypocritical [censored] you throw and newbs or anyone you
think might be one. Talk about clairvoyance, I think I am
back in the game.

Quoted message said:

Was Kunich your
teacher ?

Put up or shut up dumb ass. You look worse than Koach Kunich
judging by the article I am replying to.

Chris said:

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show
up in wind tunnels to test their positions and tweak the
equipment available to them? Did yo notice in your zeal
to post your tepid flame that I was stating Armstrong has
the biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If you
can show any evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong
on that point, then show the eveidence or at least state
what you are talking about. What does televising it have
to do with anything other than making it a current topic?
Who cares whether any other athlete has their tunnel work
televised? Did you simply *assume* that I was stating
that only LA has the budget for *any* wind

Quoted message said:

where any other athlete has as much custom equipment
designed exclusively for that athlete or any evidence at
all that they spend even half as much (rather than simply
scheduling a few sessions like most teams have been doing
for many years for their top GC men).

Chris. You're overreacting.

It's a video puff piece. It's a promo for Armstrong and a
not-at-all veiled ad for his various sponsors - Nike, Trek,
Giro, etc. It's a hook that you're biting, hard. Calm down.

You don't know what Armstrong's wind tunnel budget is,
either. Sure it's probably bigger than other teams'. On the
other hand, most of the other teams are run by traditional
European DSes who have a reputation for doing things
conservatively.

If you burn too many matches like this now, you aren't going
to make it through three weeks in July.

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01, "Randy

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this
is the first time. Not that just cause we haven't seen it,
it hasn't happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of
researchers ... He's always done his aero testing with John
Cobb at the University of Texas before ...

Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your
ass ? Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind
of work too, except it's not televised ? Are you a
specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich
your teacher ?

All valid questions.

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article
rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that
this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't
happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of
researchers ... He's always done his aero testing with
John Cobb at the University of Texas before ...

Not Oregon, Washington

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article
rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that
this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't
happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of
researchers ... He's always done his aero testing with
John Cobb at the University of Texas before ...

This is the first time he did it with feedback from a
monitor while in the tunnel.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour
efforts that is being broadcast just prior to the noon
bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him in the wind
tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that
Lance is talking as if he has not used this kind of
feedback before. That leaves me wondering just how much he
could see during the testing in past wind tunnel efforts.
Anyhow, the equipment they show him using will even allow
him to optimize his breathing rhythm (or at least have a
better idea of the actual cost of all of his position and
clothing changes inclusiding his breathing).

<snip>

Andybody happen to catch the name of the wind tunnel he uses
now in WA....? The "Kirsten" wind tunnel

Dave

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:409df96e$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show
up in wind

tunnels

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to test their positions and tweak the equipment
available to them? Did

yo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

notice in your zeal to post your tepid flame that I was
stating

Armstrong

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has the biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If
you can show

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong on that
point, then show the eveidence or at least state what
you are talking about. What does

televising

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it have to do with anything other than making it a
current topic? Who

cares

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whether any other athlete has their tunnel work
televised? Did you

simply

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*assume* that I was stating that only LA has the budget
for *any* wind

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where any other athlete has as much custom equipment
designed

exclusively

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for that athlete or any evidence at all that they spend
even half as

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(rather than simply scheduling a few sessions like
most teams have been doing for many years for their
top GC men).

Chris. You're overreacting.

I don't think so.

Quoted message said:

It's a video puff piece. It's a promo for Armstrong and a
not-at-all veiled ad for his various sponsors - Nike,
Trek, Giro, etc. It's a hook that you're biting, hard.
Calm down.

Yes it is, but what does that have to do with the subject? I
am talking about fact discussed in this "puff piece", not
its style, purpose or anything other than facts. I am
perfectly calm.

Quoted message said:

You don't know what Armstrong's wind tunnel budget
is, either.

I know that is is bigger than anyone else's and anyone that
puts any thought at all in to it would not dispute this.

Quoted message said:

Sure it's probably bigger than other teams'.

Yeah, ok.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, most of the other teams are run by
traditional European DSes who have a reputation for doing
things conservatively.

No, that is not the issue. Watch out or you will be accused
of talking out your ass (isn't that a better example of it?)

The first team to do this was Renault in the late 70s. The
Americans were probably not the last to do it but not even
close to the first. I don't count Lemond in the tunnel at
Renault (team sponsor and wind tunnel providor in this
case) as "American enginuity". Isn't that another case of
"talking out..." Why make assumptions? If you do not know
or care about the subject then don't sweat it.

Quoted message said:

If you burn too many matches like this now, you aren't
going to make it through three weeks in July.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. There is
nothing that required any extra effort at all. Amit is often
an [censored] anyway but I think I would have said the same
thing to anyone else. Your advice is not welcome.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<409db211$0$35079

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of
your ass ?

No, by all means carry on yourself.

I can accept that sometimes people are wrong. You on the
other hand write at length and with great conviction about
things you're totally out to lunch on (ref : When did
Armstrong met Kristin? (sic) thread).

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"This kind of work" like a skinsuit from Nike designed
from all new fabric and design and only available for that
"other rider"? Or are you talking about the Deda bars that
are also designed with wind tunnel feedback and contracted
to be available only for USPS?

Remember how Giro almost [censored] when Lance was beat in a
TT by a Spaniard wearing his own hair and nothing else
on his head?

Skin suits may be good for someone's psychy but the
difference in actual time is irrelevant.

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article
rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that
this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't
happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of
researchers ... He's always done his aero testing with
John Cobb at the University of Texas before ...

Excuse me, that's University of Washington. I don't think
the University of Oregon has an Aero/Astro department or a
wind tunnel, and even if they did they wouldn't be any good
anyway. ;-)

Jason (UW Aero/Astro '97)