Latest LA video

Good point. I was wondering the same because I got the same impression,
that this was something new to him. Certainly his ITT performance in the
Tour de Georgia represented good form but it will be interesting to see if
it's truly material against the stronger European teams. Although the US
competition did show itself quite strong.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour efforts that is being
broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show

him

Quoted message said:

in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that Lance is talking

as

Quoted message said:

if he has not used this kind of feedback before. That leaves me wondering
just how much he could see during the testing in past wind tunnel efforts.
Anyhow, the equipment they show him using will even allow him to optimize
his breathing rhythm (or at least have a better idea of the actual cost of
all of his position and clothing changes inclusiding his breathing).

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the past and I am

not

Quoted message said:

positive but this video now leads me to believe this is new to him. [censored],
this means he still has a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich

would

Quoted message said:

be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his gut is

slowing

Quoted message said:

him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance

the

Quoted message said:

only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have all

of

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.).

BTW,

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour efforts that is being
broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him
in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that Lance is talking as
if he has not used this kind of feedback before.

He has, or at least nearly all of it.

Quoted message said:

I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the
only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have all of
this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.).

What gives you that impression?

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

It was mentioned in the first episode and it's probably the one he's
using for testing now.

-WG

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the past and I am not
positive but this video now leads me to believe this is new to him. [censored],
this means he still has a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich would
be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his gut is slowing
him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the
only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have all of
this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.). BTW,
I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?

Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?

Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your
teacher ?

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?
Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?
Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your
teacher ?

All valid questions.

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour efforts that is

being

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show

him

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that Lance is

talking as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if he has not used this kind of feedback before.

He has, or at least nearly all of it.

I don't believe that the rider had any instrumentation available to him
before. I don't think that it would be worth a whole lot except when you're
trying to get EVERYTHING LAST bit of drag. Everyone else is limited by the
power output they have. The top pros all put out pretty much the same power
so the difference is in the aerodynamic drag.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the
only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have

all of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.).

What gives you that impression?

Ullrich just finished complete wind tunnel testing at MIT if I recall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

It was mentioned in the first episode and it's probably the one he's
using for testing now.

There's no reason to believe that skin suits, aero helmets and drag reducing
paint jobs has any practical value in a road TT. Remember that when they put
LeMond into the wind tunnel to test aero bars that he gained almost nothing
at all. It is likely that Greg gained more from being able to relax on the
elbow rests than he did from the "improved" position.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zkdnc.12665>

Quoted message said:

There's no reason to believe that skin suits, aero helmets and drag

reducing

Quoted message said:

paint jobs has any practical value in a road TT.

They do for the equipment sponsors!

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first time.
Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?
Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?
Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your
teacher ?

All valid questions.

"Randy Walton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

If you do a search on Amit's articles you will see that he is often making
[censored] remarks like that. He spreads it around fairly thoroughly though so,
no harm done. It's all part of the RBR experience.

Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?
Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?
Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your
teacher ?

All valid questions.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour efforts that is being
broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him
in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that Lance is talking as
if he has not used this kind of feedback before. That leaves me wondering
just how much he could see during the testing in past wind tunnel efforts.
Anyhow, the equipment they show him using will even allow him to optimize
his breathing rhythm (or at least have a better idea of the actual cost of
all of his position and clothing changes inclusiding his breathing).

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the past and I am not
positive but this video now leads me to believe this is new to him. [censored],
this means he still has a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich would
be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his gut is slowing
him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance the
only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have all of
this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.). BTW,
I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

I think they show the prototype in one or two shots in the Lance
Chronicles. It appears almost identical to the old fairing "helmet", but
with a layer of foam inside. I suspect it will be just a bit thicker
than the old fairing because of that, but externally will look very
similar.

Understand that Lance is chasing after incremental gains with this
stuff, and the two reasons that he's the only guy to have access to this
stuff are that he is a proven winner who is connected to top-flight
industry sponsors (Nike, Giro, Trek, etc.) with deep pockets, and he has
taken an interest in this kind of very particular equipment preparation.

At this point Ullrich is dropping out of races and going back into
training. It could be a big psych-out for some reason, and he still has
to be a favourite rider, but while Lance is showing every sign of
preparedness and fitness (perhaps also a psych-job; maybe knowing that
this is the year when his opponents are fairly expectantly hoping for
some age-induced weakness, he's made a goal of winning his early
performances), Jan is showing every sign of unreadiness.

Still can't believe Lance lost that 5 kg in one day during the TT last
year,

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I had assumed he had already done this in the past and I am

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

positive but this video now leads me to believe this is new to him.

[censored],

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this means he still has a shot at improving at the ITT whereas Ullrich

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be using this same equipment (if at all) to see how much his gut is

slowing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

him down. This sucks. I love technology in bike racing but why is Lance

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only guy that seems to have the budget to use these sessions and have

all of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this special equipment (custom skinsuits, bars, helmets, wheels etc.).

BTW,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have not seen his new compliant TT helmet. Any word on that?

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?

No, by all means carry on yourself.

Quoted message said:

Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?

"This kind of work" like a skinsuit from Nike designed from all new fabric
and design and only available for that "other rider"? Or are you talking
about the Deda bars that are also designed with wind tunnel feedback and
contracted to be available only for USPS? Perhaps these other riders also
have helmet designers providing entirely exclusive and yes, designed wholly
from wind tunnel testing on "that other" athlete? I am not even going to
count the Trek TT frame that was designed in the wind tunnel for Lance since
it is no longer an exclusive item and would not fall under "wind tunnel
resource budget" although it may have the while under development. Please
tell me of any other riders that have any custom and exclusive gear that was
designed in the wind tunnel with the recipient on the bike for testing and
development. You only have to name a few examples to prove your point, or
did you have one at all? Maybe your clairvoyance (of the "video" variety?)
allows you to intuitively know how wrong I am. For the benefit of others
though, why not just post a bit of info to clear things up?

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show up in wind tunnels
to test their positions and tweak the equipment available to them? Did yo
notice in your zeal to post your tepid flame that I was stating Armstrong
has the biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If you can show any
evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong on that point, then show the
eveidence or at least state what you are talking about. What does televising
it have to do with anything other than making it a current topic? Who cares
whether any other athlete has their tunnel work televised? Did you simply
*assume* that I was stating that only LA has the budget for *any* wind
tunnel testing? How [censored] arrogant you are. (You) [censored] creep. Show me
where any other athlete has as much custom equipment designed exclusively
for that athlete or any evidence at all that they spend even half as much
(rather than simply scheduling a few sessions like most teams have been
doing for many years for their top GC men).

Quoted message said:

Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ?

I don't need the video. Don't you think you should be more concerned with
your own lack "clairvoyance" and weak analytical skills (or is it just poor
communication)? Oh, (drum role please) is this simply a weak pot shot from
one of the local [censored] known for just this kind of arrogant hypocritical
[censored] you throw and newbs or anyone you think might be one. Talk about
clairvoyance, I think I am back in the game.

Quoted message said:

Was Kunich your
teacher ?

Put up or shut up dumb ass. You look worse than Koach Kunich judging by the
article I am replying to.

Chris said:

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show up in wind tunnels
to test their positions and tweak the equipment available to them? Did yo
notice in your zeal to post your tepid flame that I was stating Armstrong
has the biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If you can show any
evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong on that point, then show the
eveidence or at least state what you are talking about. What does televising
it have to do with anything other than making it a current topic? Who cares
whether any other athlete has their tunnel work televised? Did you simply
*assume* that I was stating that only LA has the budget for *any* wind
tunnel testing? How [censored] arrogant you are. (You) [censored] creep. Show me
where any other athlete has as much custom equipment designed exclusively
for that athlete or any evidence at all that they spend even half as much
(rather than simply scheduling a few sessions like most teams have been
doing for many years for their top GC men).

Chris. You're overreacting.

It's a video puff piece. It's a promo for Armstrong and a
not-at-all veiled ad for his various sponsors - Nike, Trek,
Giro, etc. It's a hook that you're biting, hard. Calm down.

You don't know what Armstrong's wind tunnel budget is, either.
Sure it's probably bigger than other teams'. On the other
hand, most of the other teams are run by traditional European
DSes who have a reputation for doing things conservatively.

If you burn too many matches like this now, you aren't going
to make it through three weeks in July.

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01, "Randy

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first time.
Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of researchers ... He's
always done his aero testing with John Cobb at the University of Texas
before ...

Quoted message said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Amit said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?
Will it ever occur to you that others do this kind of work too, except
it's not televised ?
Are you a specialist in video assisted clairvoyance ? Was Kunich your
teacher ?

All valid questions.

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of researchers ... He's
always done his aero testing with John Cobb at the University of Texas
before ...

Not Oregon, Washington

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of researchers ... He's
always done his aero testing with John Cobb at the University of Texas
before ...

This is the first time he did it with feedback from a monitor while in the
tunnel.

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:409df96e$1@darkstar...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

Could it be that your point is that other athletes show up in wind

tunnels

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to test their positions and tweak the equipment available to them? Did

yo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

notice in your zeal to post your tepid flame that I was stating

Armstrong

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has the biggest budget for the ITT wind tunnel tests. If you can show

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

evidence that I am anywhere close to wrong on that point, then show the
eveidence or at least state what you are talking about. What does

televising

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it have to do with anything other than making it a current topic? Who

cares

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whether any other athlete has their tunnel work televised? Did you

simply

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

*assume* that I was stating that only LA has the budget for *any* wind
tunnel testing? How [censored] arrogant you are. (You) [censored] creep. Show

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where any other athlete has as much custom equipment designed

exclusively

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for that athlete or any evidence at all that they spend even half as

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(rather than simply scheduling a few sessions like most teams have been
doing for many years for their top GC men).

Chris. You're overreacting.

I don't think so.

Quoted message said:

It's a video puff piece. It's a promo for Armstrong and a
not-at-all veiled ad for his various sponsors - Nike, Trek,
Giro, etc. It's a hook that you're biting, hard. Calm down.

Yes it is, but what does that have to do with the subject? I am talking
about fact discussed in this "puff piece", not its style, purpose or
anything other than facts. I am perfectly calm.

Quoted message said:

You don't know what Armstrong's wind tunnel budget is, either.

I know that is is bigger than anyone else's and anyone that puts any thought
at all in to it would not dispute this.

Quoted message said:

Sure it's probably bigger than other teams'.

Yeah, ok.

Quoted message said:

On the other
hand, most of the other teams are run by traditional European
DSes who have a reputation for doing things conservatively.

No, that is not the issue. Watch out or you will be accused of talking out
your ass (isn't that a better example of it?)

The first team to do this was Renault in the late 70s. The Americans were
probably not the last to do it but not even close to the first. I don't
count Lemond in the tunnel at Renault (team sponsor and wind tunnel providor
in this case) as "American enginuity". Isn't that another case of "talking
out..." Why make assumptions? If you do not know or care about the subject
then don't sweat it.

Quoted message said:

If you burn too many matches like this now, you aren't going
to make it through three weeks in July.

You have no idea what you are talking about here. There is nothing that
required any extra effort at all. Amit is often an [censored] anyway but I
think I would have said the same thing to anyone else. Your advice is not
welcome.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I assume this is the latest video on LA and his Tour efforts that is being
broadcast just prior to the noon bradcast of the Giro. So far, they show him
in the wind tunnel with all kinds of feedback for him to look at as he
pedals and breathes. The interesting thing to me is that Lance is talking as
if he has not used this kind of feedback before. That leaves me wondering
just how much he could see during the testing in past wind tunnel efforts.
Anyhow, the equipment they show him using will even allow him to optimize
his breathing rhythm (or at least have a better idea of the actual cost of
all of his position and clothing changes inclusiding his breathing).

<snip>

Andybody happen to catch the name of the wind tunnel he uses now in WA....?
The "Kirsten" wind tunnel

Dave

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<409db211$0$35079

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you trying to perfect the art of talking out of your ass ?

No, by all means carry on yourself.

I can accept that sometimes people are wrong. You on the other hand
write at length and with great conviction about things you're totally
out to lunch on (ref : When did Armstrong met Kristin? (sic) thread).

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"This kind of work" like a skinsuit from Nike designed from all new fabric
and design and only available for that "other rider"? Or are you talking
about the Deda bars that are also designed with wind tunnel feedback and
contracted to be available only for USPS?

Remember how Giro almost [censored] when Lance was beat in a TT by a Spaniard
wearing his own hair and nothing else on his head?

Skin suits may be good for someone's psychy but the difference in actual
time is irrelevant.

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 05/08/2004 07:22 PM, in article rJfnc.8436$z06.1539726@attbi_s01,

"Randy

Quoted message said:

Walton said:

I think his comment was that the video suggests that this is the first

time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that just cause we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened.

First time at University of Oregon with this group of researchers ... He's
always done his aero testing with John Cobb at the University of Texas
before ...

Excuse me, that's University of Washington. I don't think the University of
Oregon has an Aero/Astro department or a wind tunnel, and even if they did
they wouldn't be any good anyway. ;-)

Jason (UW Aero/Astro '97)