Lateral strength of bicycle wheels



Strewth Mate, you really have some issues to deal with? Good luck and keep riding your 50 kgf spoke tensioned wheels.

Oh, you have now changed your stance on that, due to unmentioned dynamic considerations, which means that you will need to increase spoke tension to ensure that the wheel is dynamically stiff enough to ride safely ... hehehe.

aliens High ground, aliens incorrectly posits, aliens unmentioned dynamic considerations, aliens continual sniping, aliens never built a wheel ... ***********, what a joke ... it seems like you need to get a life, unless of course your posting here is your whole significance in life ... BLOODY hope not!!!

I think it is better to discuss matters with posters who discuss the whole matter, such as alfeng (who is enormously more intelligent than you, definitely) ...

Thanks buddy and continue to post rubbish...

thanks KL
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"aliens never built a wheel ... ***********, what a joke ... it seems like you need to get a life..."

He's the kind of idjut that screams and rants at people in real life, too.

I have build a lot of wheels. All it takes is a push with a finger to learn which is going to ride like mush and which is going to ride like you're connected to the road. Of course, this has started alien ranting about fingers not be calibrated instruments and that humans can not discern stiff wheels from mush.

I'm still waiting for him to post pictures of the mush wheel that ate his Campy Record rear derailleur. And for a real fun thread...discuss how weight (WRT cycling) does not matter, how sound travels, why stiffness of wheels, frames, cranksets, etc. matters not...you can hours of fun reading the pages of math that explain life in the most minute detail...
 
Originally Posted by alienator

More B
Mate, you clearLy have not paid attention to what I've written. After all, you have yet to respond to actual technical arguments. Note that quoting Alfeng is not a respOnse. He doesn't respond either. Rather, he tries to argue climate change in a discussion about wheels. So if you've got an actual argument on the physics and engineering of wheels, proVide it. Otherwise, you can quote alfeng and scream "troll" until the ****ing cows come home and cop a squat, and it will in no way validate your argument or prove anything that alfeng claims. My technical arguments stand fine on their own. If you don't get them, go to school and leArn something.

Alas, there's no need to answer alfeng's posts. He gets the science wrong. He gets The math wrong. He gets vectors wrong (The right hand rule implies a fourth dimension? That's rich and mathematically hysterical). Then, when he's flummoxed by the math and science, he throws out red herrings about politics, climate change, health care, or whatever else makes his finger stinky. Why the red herrings? Because he cannot argue the points at hand. Nothing he says about my daughter is going to prove his technical points worthy.

Here have a look. Does the right hand rule imply a fourth dimension? Well let's see. We have a vector A = a1x + a2y + a3z and another vector B = b1x + b2y + b3z, where a1, a2, a3, b1, b2, and b3 are scalar coefficients of the unit vectors x, y, and z (the unit vectors each point along the respective axis and are....wait for it.....one unit long). The mathematical operation defined by the right hand rule is the cross product: A x B = C, where A, B, and C are vectors and C is perpendicular to the two other vectors. The operation is defined as follows:

A x B = (a2*b3 - b2*a3)x - (a1*b3 - b1*a3)y + (a1*b2 - b1*a2)z = C.

Why lookee there: we started with two vectors three dimensions (x,y,z) and ended up with another vector in the same damned three dimensions (x,y,z). You know what? That's what you get every time you do such a cross product. You don't get that fourth dimension BS. Nope you just get a vector in the same dimensions with which you started, and every single time the new vector is perpendicular to the other two. Just more proof of alfeng talking out of his ass, very possibly the same ass you're talking out of.

So, unless you've actually got a statement of technical merit, I suggest you work on your flexibility so that you can find a new way pleasuring yourself.

!!!

OMG!!!

That seems like a lot of hand waving ranting in what I am presuming is an attempt to excoriate me & to dismiss my challenge of YOUR "listening" ability + YOUR absence of an ability to use "critical thought" and "reason" ...

While it may be sufficient to simply reply with Nader's Law:

Let me repeat, for the record:

I have presented the "math" which has been distilled into a matrix ... but, you are apparently incapable of comprehending matrices AND SO you dismiss it as not existing ...

Until recently, YOU have merely presented formulas AND then when you did provide some numbers (i.e., "50 units" & "100 units") it re-enforced my observation that you are a pretender who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Once again, for the record:

You are an advocate for the "scientific method" and yet you are incapable of following it because you begin with false premises and in other instances you are apparently willing to accept falsified data if it fits your dystopian world view ...

  • in both the former & latter instance, the matter of so-called "man-made Global Warming" AND your failure to deny it shows that you lack "critical thought" ... which almost makes your arguments moot IF you insist that "man-made Global Warming" is based on science and/or "reason" because it shows that you do not know what either WORD means ...
  • OR, that your science is situational-at-best
  • AND, as I pointed out, YOU persist in your argument about a wheel's lateral stiffness by your unilateral statement that "that spokes with greater tension don't decrease how much a wheel deflects ..." which is NOT how the scientific method is applied

The problem for YOU is that we do read what you write ... AND, despite whatever the voices in your head are saying to you about the efficacy of re-posting formulas in the belief that you are making a "technical" argument, the specific argument which you are making is almost meaningless because it is addressing the question solely in the wrong axis ...

In other words, inserting an incorrect formula in an argument limits the value of the formula ...

For example, by MY preliminary, independent analysis, the following line is a part of a larger formulation:

1. I glorify Agni, the high priest of the sacrifice, the divine, the ministrant, who presents the oblation (to the gods), and the possessor of great wealth. [Rig Veda, First Ashtaka, First Adhyaya, Anuvaka I, Sukta I, Mandala I, Line 1 / (Wilson, 1866)]

Applicable?

I will admit that it is NOT directly applicable to the immediate analysis of a bicycle wheel ...

But, when taken in context with a number of the subsequent Hymns + in the-grand-scheme-of-things it may be MORE applicable than your insistence on Hooke's Law as the sole basis for your argument regarding what affects a bicycle wheel's stiffness!!!

So, while you may be conditionally correct when you say that your "technical arguments stand fine on their own" it is NOT CORRECT to say that your "technical arguments stand fine" as a part of a valid analysis of a bicycle wheel's ability to withstand a lateral force!!!

YOU are the one who gets the "science" wrong.
YOU are the one who gets the "math" wrong.

YOU show a lack of an ability to "reason" when you say ...

"You'll note that you cannot find a single instance in which I minimized the influence of bracing angle.

It is MORE THAN an inference that you have "minimized the influence of bracing angle" because to continually insist on an application of Hooke's Law in the wrong axis to the exclusion of other factors in the analysis of a bicycle wheel IS a repeated minimization of the influence of the bracing angle; but, if you don't understand that then you lack an understanding of the English language as it is used in the Real World ...

AND it further proves that this maxim holds true ...

alienator apparently doesn't know the difference between Hooke's Law and Captain Hook.

And, again we see that YOU cannot read (aka "listen") if you insist on revisiting what I said regarding MY knowledge of vectors. No problem. Here it is ...
Your mention of "String Theory" is a canard -- essentially, it is yet another example of your use of chaff.

Not that it matters, but I sincerely doubt that you know more about vectors than I know.

In fact, let me add that no matter how-much-or-how-little Physics and/or Engineering I may know, it is pretty evident that YOU KNOW LESS ... and, if you received a degree in either discipline from an accredited University then you should probably return it.
'I' will stand by the statement(s) ... plus, simply knowing MORE than YOU know is not a declaration that I have "a massive knowledge of vectors ..." Talk about "willful misreading" ...

UNLESS, I suppose you were projecting that 'I' must know more than YOU since you apparently have a very limited knowledge so ANY GREATER knowledge must seem "massive" to you!
BTW. Do you really not understand the RIGHT HAND THUMB RULE as a concept? Is it a "willful misreading" or a lack of comprehension?
Do I need to explain to you how when a bike is rolling DOWN THE ROAD that it theoretically becomes FOUR DIMENSIONAL?
I know THAT is probably harder to wrap your head around than the fact that analysis of a bicycle wheel is not linear in the wrong axis!

BTW2. I think that a lot of us are waiting for YOU to provide "a statement of technical merit"!
 
Let's shift gears and get him to rant on tying & soldering spokes to increase stiffness. He's never ridden a pair of T&S wheels, but he's quite the theoretician and expert on their qualities.
 
Eichers said:
Strewth Mate, you really have some issues to deal with?  Good luck and keep riding your 50 kgf spoke tensioned wheels.  Oh, you have now changed your stance on that, due to unmentioned dynamic considerations, which means that you will need to increase spoke tension to ensure that the wheel is dynamically stiff enough to ride safely ... hehehe. aliens High ground, aliens incorrectly posits, aliens unmentioned dynamic considerations, aliens continual sniping, aliens never built a wheel ... ***********, what a joke ... it seems like you need to get a life, unless of course your posting here is your whole significance in life ... BLOODY hope not!!! I think it is better to discuss matters with posters who discuss the whole matter, such as alfeng (who is enormously more intelligent than you, definitely) ... Thanks buddy and continue to post rubbish... thanks KL :smile:  
So much for reading skills. Feel free to read back through this thread and the other related thread to find the several times that I actually typed out an ODE that would describe the dynamic case. Also, read again, the several times I've talked about the dynamic case and how it is in the dynamic case when spoke tension is a factor. Also feel free to read again and understand how in the case of stiffness, i.e. a static case (as has been mentioned before several times), spoke tension does not affect stiffness so long as the tension is sufficient to prevent the spoke from going slack. Feel free to go back and read how I mentioned that not only rider weight is a consideration but also impacts with road debris or road surface defects and that spoke tension has to be sufficient to prevent the spokes from going slack in those cases where such impacts cause an exchange of momentum and energy. I've backtracked nowhere, despite your trolling accusations. You are one to talk about sniping and trolling. It can't be helped if you consider the physical dependencies and constraints on a wheel rubbish. Alas, I've not claimed to be smarter than anyone, and that is not the subject. That's a straw man that you've built. What is the subject is the correct understanding of a physical system. I've repeated my technical points several fold. Unless you've actually got something of merit to say in public, we'll just continue to PM each other.
 
Strewth mate (alien), I definitely would not trust you to build a wheel for me (oh! you have never built one) but I would definitely trust alfeng and campybob to build one or many wheels for me
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If I did have you build a wheel for me and it failed, you would probably blame me for riding a wheel built by you anyways, and you definitely would not admit to your own shortfall and continually changing stances (bit here, bit there)...

You may as well keep on TROLLing RUBBISH, but it doesn't look you are going to stop, anytime soon ... but maybe there is a chance, we can only HOPE
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Anyway, best you get some HELP with your issues ... especially from a WHEELBUILDer who has built wheels
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I have just had another excellent idea ... why don't you ask alfeng and campybob to help you with WHEELBUILDing? If you are nice to them (especially toward alfeng), which would be a nice change on your part, they just might help you to increase your REAL knowledge base, considerably
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I could help you but I don't think that we would get on very well together (especially in close proximity, which would most probably be extremely difficult and probably impossible) nor communicate very well with one another ...

Anyway, keep well ...

thanks KL
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Eichers said:
Strewth mate (alien), I definitely would not trust you to build a wheel for me (oh! you have never built one) but I would definitely trust alfeng and campybob to build one or many wheels for me :smile:    If I did have you build a wheel for me and it failed, you would probably blame me for riding a wheel built by you anyways, and you definitely would not admit to your own shortfall and continually changing stances (bit here, bit there)... You may as well keep on TROLLing RUBBISH, but it doesn't look you are going to stop, anytime soon ... but maybe there is a chance, we can only HOPE :smile: Anyway, best you get some HELP with your issues ... especially from a WHEELBUILDer who has built wheels :smile: I have just had another excellent idea ... why don't you ask alfeng and campybob to help you with WHEELBUILDing?   If you are nice to them (especially toward alfeng), which would be a nice change on your part, they just might help you to increase your REAL knowledge base, considerably :smile:     I could help you but I don't think that we would get on very well together (especially in close proximity, which would most probably be extremely difficult and probably impossible) nor communicate very well with one another ... Anyway, keep well ... thanks KL :smile:  
Strewth, mate, I wouldn't trust you to figure out the science of math behind anything or, hell, to even understand a physical system. :smile: Keep trolling, mate. :smile:
 
alien, you probably surprise yourself at times, but not many others ... keep trying you will get there, eventually, and keep well :smile: As I have previously stated "I, and highly likely many others, do not need your TROLLING RUBBISH advise, so to let you know so that you do not continue to delude yourself, any longer, which unfortunately you do to yourself very frequently. Mate, know that you need to stop punishing yourself in this/that way (and probably other ways), and best you get some help with your many issues... ". Mate, know that help is always available for you, if you are willing to receive it ... it really is up to you, good luck :smile: thanks KL :smile:
 
Quote: Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB View Post Let's shift gears and get him to rant on tying & soldering spokes to increase stiffness. He's never ridden a pair of T&S wheels, but he's quite the theoretician and expert on their qualities. Hi CAMPYBOB, remember the ProLite wheelset I purchased. Well Prolite claim that the NDS spoke bracing improves the Lateral stiffness by 7%, which is not a lot but some improvement (and they are probably right :smile: ), but the ride was definitely harsher. So there you are, you are right, re: spoke bracing improving Lateral stiffness ... this result is supported by Prolite's measuring equipment. Thought that you might like to know :smile: thanks KL :smile:
 
Quote: Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB ... Let's shift gears and get him (alien) to rant on tying & soldering spokes to increase stiffness. He's never ridden a pair of T&S wheels, but he's quite the theoretician and expert on their qualities. Hi CAMPYBOB, remember the ProLite wheelset I purchased. Well ProLite claim that the NDS spoke bracing improves the Lateral stiffness by 7% (compared to the same wheel without spoke bracing), which is not a lot but some improvement (and they are probably right :smile: ), but the ride was definitely harsher. So there you are, CAMPYBOB you are right, re: spoke bracing improving Lateral stiffness ... this result is supported by ProLite's measuring equipment. Thought that you might like to know :smile: thanks KL :smile:
 
Mavic specs an Aksium front at 80-90 Kgf. They might as well make them out of wet spaghetti, I've got mine at 110-115 on my Park tension gauge and they're noticeably stiffer. Without eyelets ("work hardened" aluminum head seats my skinny white ass!) I will not take them up to where they really need to be.

Spoke tension...HTF does it work?
 
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
Mavic specs an Aksium front at 80-90 Kgf. They might as well make them out of wet spaghetti, I've got mine at 110-115 on my Park tension gauge and they're noticeably stiffer. Without eyelets ("work hardened" aluminum head seats my skinny white ass!) I will not take them up to where they really need to be.

Spoke tension...HTF does it work?
Hi CAMPYBOB, 80-90kgf is definitely low, although not as low as 50 kgf (aliens setting)!

What tension do you actually want to set the front spokes to?

thanks KL
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115-120 would be better. I have not seen any cracking yet, but I suspect neither the rim or hub would live long at 130 Kgf. I cringe when I look at the 'new' wheel designs.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Aksiums and I can't seem to kill them, but I finally got fed up with their lack of stiffness. Also, the rim alloy does feel really soft, anywhere away from the spoke head seats. I've easily straightened the clincher bead seats and dressed of some burrs.

Campy Sigma or Strada solution aged, heat treated rims these are NOT!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
115-120 would be better. I have not seen any cracking yet, but I suspect neither the rim or hub would live long at 130 Kgf. I cringe when I look at the 'new' wheel designs.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Aksiums and I can't seem to kill them, but I finally got fed up with their lack of stiffness. Also, the rim alloy does feel really soft, anywhere away from the spoke head seats. I've easily straightened the clincher bead seats and dressed of some burrs.

Campy Sigma or Strada solution aged, heat treated rims these are NOT!
Hi CAMPYBOB, just goes to show you how necessary spoke tension is to having a Laterally and Radially stiff wheel build. Although it is dependent on each wheel build, for the rim/hub/spoke type/spoke count/spoke lacing pattern chosen for that build. The higher spoke tension benefits must be due to those unmentioned Dynamic Considerations
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Seriously/Actually, a wheel is a sprung unit, in the case of the Aksium front wheel (which has a low spoke count), the higher spoke tension really only works because of the good bracing angle (off each hub flange), and as you have mentioned, because the rim is soft and not very Laterally or Radially stiff. In this case the higher spoke tension will have a noticeable effect. CAMPYBOB, is that what you have noticed
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CAMPYBOB/alfeng, does this sound correct to you
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As you say, with your Aksium front wheel, 115-120 kgf would be nice (and beneficial to Lateral/Radial stiffness) but the Aksium rim would probably crack and you have already increased the spoke tension from 80-90 Kgf to 110-115 kgf (a 25-30 kgf increase - a fair bit).

Of course, the load (riders weight) is also a necessary consideration to a wheels Lateral/Radial stiffness, ie. the lighter the rider the less Laterally or Radially stiff a wheel build can be ... just one of the factors)
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thanks KL
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"CAMPYBOB, is that what you have noticed"

Yes. More spoke tension yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Larger bracing angles yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Tying and soldering yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Higher spoke counts yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Larger plain gauge spokes yield a stiffer wheel assembly.

I'm a fairly light rider (not Columbian climbing specialist light, but I finished the season at 163 pounds) and without a lot of power. With a reasonably stiff frameset I can easily discern flexible wheels from stiff ones. It's not rocket surgery. I don't need my Hewlett Packard calculator to tell me if I'm on a wimpy wheelset.
 
Quote: Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB View Post "CAMPYBOB, is that what you have noticed" Yes. More spoke tension yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Larger bracing angles yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Tying and soldering yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Higher spoke counts yields a stiffer wheel assembly. Larger plain gauge spokes yield a stiffer wheel assembly. I'm a fairly light rider (not Columbian climbing specialist light, but I finished the season at 163 pounds) and without a lot of power. With a reasonably stiff frameset I can easily discern flexible wheels from stiff ones. It's not rocket surgery. I don't need my Hewlett Packard calculator to tell me if I'm on a wimpy wheelset. Hi CAMPYBOB, well that is 2 of us in agreement, re spoke tension and Lateral/Radial stiffness and the other aspects that you have mentioned, and if alfeng agrees that's 3 peoples (and perhaps others). Hopefully a consensus will stop those TROLLING RUBBISH/SNIPING posts from alien, and may even encourage him to WHEELBUILD himself, instead of armchair wheelbuilding. Crikey, that that's like saying you know how to build a car engine from reading a book. Hopefully, there will be no more of these unnecessary, incorrectly situated, scalar functions ... A x B = (a2*b3 - b2*a3)x - (a1*b3 - b1*a3)y + (a1*b2 - b1*a2)z = C Thank you CAMPYBOB for your reply, very much appreciated :smile: thanks KL :smile:
 
Quote:

Hi CAMPYBOB, well that is 2 of us in agreement, re spoke tension and Lateral/Radial stiffness and the other aspects that you have mentioned, and if alfeng agrees that's 3 peoples (and perhaps others).


+1 for agreement.

With respect to Alien, applied math (physics in the US) is great, but one needs to carefully understand the fundamentals and application.

The constant K in Hook's law referred to as "stiffness" in the good old USA is actually referred to as "Spring Rate" on the other side of the world. It is impossible to apply that to a bicycle wheel, which in components and geometry is very far from a spring.

In the end it is good to try and apply theory to practice, as long as the end goal is not about "who" is right, but rather "what" is right.

I train on home built wheels (2sets) but race on factory wheels, the latter I have never touched other than a bit of tweaking after churning a squirrel through my fork and slightly bending a spoke.

I build as tight as allowable without cracking the rim, I'm on the heavier side 175lbs and hill sprint training together with slack spokes reduces life drastically before a rebuild is needed due to breaking spokes. I have an old pair of MA40's the front has been rebuilt 3 times, the rear I have stopped counting, but they come from the late 1980's.

In so far as pulling the rear derailleur into the wheel with slack spokes, I notice a lot of wheels built different to the old standard practice nowadays. I build so that the driving spoke under tension pulls the rest away from the derailleur.
 
"Thank you CAMPYBOB for your reply, very much appreciated"

I just finished 42 years of road training and racing this year. I've posted pics of most of the bikes I've used and abused over the many years I've spent on the road. I built the wheels for almost all of them. I built a bunch of wheels for my team mates. I built and rebuilt trashed wheels for family, friends and complete strangers that were in need, over the years. I really do need to get a pic up of all the wheels on my bench and all the wheel boxes full of wheels I've built and rims waiting for the call.

I may just be an engineer, but I know what makes a bicycle wheel stiff.
 
Originally Posted by Eichers
Quote:
Hi CAMPYBOB, just goes to show you how necessary spoke tension is to having a Laterally and Radially stiff wheel build. Although it is dependent on each wheel build, for the rim/hub/spoke type/spoke count/spoke lacing pattern chosen for that build. The higher spoke tension benefits must be due to those unmentioned Dynamic Considerations
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Seriously/Actually, a wheel is a sprung unit, in the case of the Aksium front wheel (which has a low spoke count), the higher spoke tension really only works because of the good bracing angle (off each hub flange), and as you have mentioned, because the rim is soft and not very Laterally or Radially stiff. In this case the higher spoke tension will have a noticeable effect. CAMPYBOB, is that what you have noticed
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CAMPYBOB/alfeng, does this sound correct to you
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As you say, with your Aksium front wheel, 115-120 kgf would be nice (and beneficial to Lateral/Radial stiffness) but the Aksium rim would probably crack and you have already increased the spoke tension from 80-90 Kgf to 110-115 kgf (a 25-30 kgf increase - a fair bit).

Of course, the load (riders weight) is also a necessary consideration to a wheels Lateral/Radial stiffness, ie. the lighter the rider the less Laterally or Radially stiff a wheel build can be ... just one of the factors)
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thanks KL
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I'm with you all the way with regard to the significance of the bracing angle with regard to how it affects a bicycle wheel's lateral stiffness ...

In fact, several years ago, I received an early production run of the DT Swiss 240s rear hub (marked "Hügi") as a replacement for a Hügi 240 and I was disappointed that the non-driveside flange was further inboard than "normal" to presumably facilitate reduced-dish lacing & presumably to (¿also?) improve the rear wheel's dirty air aerodynamics ...

THAT hub is still in its box ...

NOT because it's a collector's item (yet!?!), but because I just could not see lacing up a rear wheel with the reduced bracing angle when I have other hubs to use.

BTW. As far as the Aksium rim, or any other rim which may not have eyelets (I may be incorrectly presuming that the Aksium's rims don't have eyelets), I think that steel washers may be beneficial (it's not too late!) to reducing the stress around the spoke holes if the spoke tension is going to be much higher than 100kgf ... I think that the "hardware store" size is #10, but maybe not ... the washers were, of course, commonly used when building wheels with NITTO NISI & some other brands of rims in the long-ago-and-far-away of low profile aluminum rimmed tubular wheels whose rims did not have eyelets ...

BTW2. If I had a set of Aksium wheels then I might consider replacing the bladed spokes with straight 14g spokes if the wheel uses J-bend spokes ...

OR, if the front wheel is laced with MAVIC's T-ended (?) spokes then I might even go so far as to re-lace the rim on a different hub with a x2 or x3 lacing ... and (of course!!!), straight 14g spokes.
 
Originally Posted by alfeng

I'm with you all the way with regard to the significance of the bracing angle with regard to how it affects a bicycle wheel's lateral stiffness ...

In fact, several years ago, I received an early production run of the DT Swiss 240s rear hub (marked "Hügi") as a replacement for a Hügi 240 and I was disappointed that the non-driveside flange was further inboard than "normal" to presumably facilitate reduced-dish lacing & presumably to (¿also?) improve the rear wheel's dirty air aerodynamics ...

THAT hub is still in its box ...

NOT because it's a collector's item (yet!?!), but because I just could not see lacing up a rear wheel with the reduced bracing angle when I have other hubs to use.

BTW. As far as the Aksium rim, or any other rim which may not have eyelets (I may be incorrectly presuming that the Aksium's rims don't have eyelets), I think that steel washers may be beneficial (it's not too late!) to reducing the stress around the spoke holes if the spoke tension is going to be much higher than 100kgf ... I think that the "hardware store" size is #10, but maybe not ... the washers were, of course, commonly used when building wheels with NITTO & some other brands of rims in the long-ago-and-far-away of low profile aluminum rimmed tubular wheels whose rims did not have eyelets ...

BTW2. If I had a set of Aksium wheels then I might consider replacing the bladed spokes with straight 14g spokes if the wheel uses J-bend spokes ...

OR, if the front wheel is laced with MAVIC's T-ended (?) spokes then I might even go so far as to re-lace the rim on a different hub with a x2 or x3 lacing ... and (of course!!!), straight 14g spokes.
Hi alfeng, yes, in the early days of 9spd hubs they didn't understand that the Total BA still needs to be 11 to 13 or even 14 degrees and strove for equal DS/NDS spoke tension instead. The larger NDS BA means that it is much larger than the DS BA. The unfortunate aspect of the larger NDS BA is that the NDS spoke tension is much less than the DS spoke tension, to the point nowadays that the NDS tension ratio is as low as 45%. This ratio can be controlled by different DS/NDS lacing patterns/numbers/spoke types.

As previously mentioned it is possible to achieve a DS/NDS BA = 6 degrees, off each flange for 130mm OLD 10/11spd and even 12/13/14spd wheel, but it would require a different wheel construction (It is possibly even achievable with a 120/126mm OLD hub).
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BTW, the reason that wide flange front wheel hubs are now popular, is so that heads-out 0x/radial lacing can be done while still retaining good BA. The good BA would normally be achieved by heads-in lacing
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Thank you alfeng for your reply, very much appreciated (and that is now 4 of us!)
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thanks KL
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