lateral load capability of tubular VS clincher tires

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Kerry Montgomer

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Hi all, Is there a significant difference in the amount of side load that can be applied to a
tubular tire and a clincher tire prior to failure? Have access to a vehicle with 3 wheels
perpendicular to the pavement; currently tubulars. Am wondering if changing to clinchers would allow
higher lateral forces/cornering speed? Thanks, Kerry
 
"Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, Is there a significant difference in the amount of side load that can be applied to a
> tubular tire and a clincher tire prior to failure? Have
access
> to a vehicle with 3 wheels perpendicular to the pavement; currently tubulars. Am wondering if
> changing to clinchers would allow higher
lateral
> forces/cornering speed? Thanks, Kerry
>

What mechanism is preventing you from attaining higher cornering speeds currently? Are you rolling
tubulars off the rim? Or just sliding the tires?? I think they'd have fairly equal traction in a
corner, generally being composed of the same rubber and of a similar profile. If you're rolling
tubulars, I should think you will correct that problem with clinchers. I'm assuming this is some
type of trike?

Cheers,

Scott..
 
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:45:50 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>Hi all, Is there a significant difference in the amount of side load that can be applied to a
>tubular tire and a clincher tire prior to failure? Have access to a vehicle with 3 wheels
>perpendicular to the pavement; currently tubulars. Am wondering if changing to clinchers would
>allow higher lateral forces/cornering speed?

Since tubulars use glue to retain the tire, their mounting method is subject to cumulative stress
failure; the failure can be incremental as well, with a little of the glue failing today and a
little more later until it rolls off. Clinchers will leave the rim only if the side force is great
enough to break the bead loose and allow the tube to blow out. So, while a fully-glued tubular *may*
withstand a higher side load on a single event test, the clincher has a more predictable set of
characteristics in the long run since its behavior is solely a function of load and inflation, not
glue deterioration or fractional peel.

I would put only clinchers on a trike, if that's where you're headed with your question. But
that's me.

In any event, unless you're having problems with the tubulars rolling off the rims, no, changing to
clinchers won't automatically allow higher cornering forces; you have to directly compare the
actual traction characteristics of the candidate tires to determine which will perform better in
that regard.

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Hi all, Thanks for the responses. Yes, this is a trike. The limiting factor so far is FEAR of a
tubular rolling off. Wouldn't expect an inherent advantage in traction for either type. May just
take the conservative route and build clincher wheels. Thanks again, Kerry

Werehatrack wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:45:50 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> may have said:
>
>>Hi all, Is there a significant difference in the amount of side load that can be applied to a
>>tubular tire and a clincher tire prior to failure? Have
access
>>to a vehicle with 3 wheels perpendicular to the pavement; currently tubulars. Am wondering if
>>changing to clinchers would allow higher
lateral
>>forces/cornering speed?
>
>Since tubulars use glue to retain the tire, their mounting method is subject to cumulative stress
>failure; the failure can be incremental as well, with a little of the glue failing today and a
>little more later until it rolls off. Clinchers will leave the rim only if the side force is great
>enough to break the bead loose and allow the tube to blow out. So, while a fully-glued tubular
>*may* withstand a higher side load on a single event test, the clincher has a more predictable set
>of characteristics in the long run since its behavior is solely a function of load and inflation,
>not glue deterioration or fractional peel.
>
>I would put only clinchers on a trike, if that's where you're headed with your question. But
>that's me.
>
>In any event, unless you're having problems with the tubulars rolling off the rims, no, changing to
>clinchers won't automatically allow higher cornering forces; you have to directly compare the
>actual traction characteristics of the candidate tires to determine which will perform better in
>that regard.
>
>--
>My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
>don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy. Words processed in a facility that
>contains nuts.
 
Kerry Montgomery writes:

> Is there a significant difference in the amount of side load that can be applied to a tubular tire
> and a clincher tire prior to failure? Have access to a vehicle with 3 wheels perpendicular to the
> pavement; currently tubulars. Am wondering if changing to clinchers would allow higher lateral
> forces/cornering speed?

That would be a definite improvement because tubulars can be peeled off with continual side loads
for several rotations. In normal bicycling, even when leaning into curves at 45 degrees, the center
of pressure of the tire still lies within the width of the rim. Hard cornering at the limit of slip
for a non leaning vehicle this would not be the case.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
[email protected] (R15757) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Kerry wrote among other things:
>
> << The limiting factor so far is FEAR of a tubular rolling off. >>
>
>
> Is this a case of stage nine coming back to haunt?
>
> Robert

Tour de France on trikes - now that would be a novelty.
 
"Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi all, Thanks for the responses. Yes, this is a trike. The limiting factor so far is FEAR of a
> tubular rolling off. Wouldn't expect an inherent advantage in traction for either type. May just
> take the conservative route and build clincher wheels. Thanks again, Kerry
>

Some relevant experience:

A few years ago, I helped build recumbent trikes for HPV competitions:
http://www.pacifier.com/~jwills/Gallery/index.html (no jokes about the socks, OK?). We built most of
them with clinchers, but one was built with 20" tubulars in front and a 700C tubular in the rear. By
and large, we had no traction problems- in fact, it was the opposite: hard cornering would lift the
inside wheel off of the ground.

One incident stands out: at the 1982 IHPSC, one of our hired-gun riders took the tubular-equipped
trike for a slow ride along the rail of the Domingues Hills velodrome. He's just about stopped at
the top of the banking at one end of the track when we hear BANG-whirr-thumpa-thumpa-boing and we
see him diving for the infield, trailing smoke from the inside tire. ('Twas a rather remarkable
emulation of a WWI fighter diving into the ground.) The sidewall of the tire had simply blown apart.

Given the relatively easy availability of narrow, high-pressure clincher tires in all sorts of sizes
(far better than what we had in
1982), I'd say that tubular tires aren't a viable option for a trike.

Jeff
 
On 10 Jan 2004 01:51:40 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) may have said:

>...Jan might be able to stay off the tarmac on a trike. stress on the word might

A three-point contact support is stable...until lateral forces are applied.

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On 10 Jan 2004 01:51:40 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) may have said:

><< > << The limiting factor so far is FEAR of a tubular rolling off. >>
>>
>>
>>> Is this a case of stage nine coming back to haunt?
>>
>>> Robert
>
>Tour de France on trikes - now that would be a novelty.
> >>
>
>Armstrong would still kick everybody's ass.

I think we should all be relieved that the TdF isn't yet a Major Mainstream Event for the US
television networks. Imagine the results that might obtain if they decided that the race would be
ever so much more exciting if certain rules were relaxed, and some extra classes were added for
prones, bents, etc. They might even be stupid enough to throw so much money in front of the
sanctioning bodies that the changes would get made.

I suspect we'd see 4Kg bikes...breaking at speed.

--
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R15757 wrote:
> Then the network would probably hire some blonde chick with big knockers who doesn't know anything
> about bike racing to comment on the racers' packages

Are you referring to OLN of last summer? :)

-Mark Janeba
 
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