In article <[email hidden]>,
dan said:First off, if you do some reading you'll find that the evidence is
anything but overwhelming. The fact that his A and B samples tested
the same simply means that the A sample wasn't independently tampered
with and the tests were excuted in a consistent manner, though that
does not mean that the test couldn't be flawed. This is the result
one would expect of such tests. If there had been a difference
between the A and B samples, THAT would have been unexpected.
Actually, if the test is flawed one would expect to see variation in the
test results, not consistency. A flawed test has a higher error of
measurement, and thus has lower reliability and validity.
Quoted message said:Contrary to many reports from lazy news sources, Landis did NOT have
a high level of testosterone in his urine. What he had was a high
testosterone-epitestosterone ratio (a.k.a. T-E ratio). "Normal"
ratios are in the 1:1 - 3:1 range, though studies have found
significant numbers of men with natural T-E ratios in the 6:1 range
and some as high as 13:1. The WADA standard for doping is set at 6:1.
Read WADA's own document on the subject, their standard is 4:1 and has
been for quite some time.
Quoted message said:The UCI used that limit up until this year, when it dropped its
acceptable ratio to 4:1 (I have no idea why). Although Landis has
been reported to have tested with a ratio of 11:1, there has been no
official confirmation of that yet AFAIK.Testosterone doping is primarily used to build muscle and works over
a long period of time to do so. However, since cycling is not a sport
that benefits from large, bulky muscles, that type of testosterone
use would be counterproductive for a road cyclist (it might benefit a
track sprinter).There is another use for testoterone; it can be used to enhance
short-term recovery. A testosterone patch is place on the scrotum for
up to 6 hours and it will reduce recovery time, supposedly without
boosting levels to the point of exceeding the legal T/E ratio. As
yet, there is no evidence that Landis did this or even knew about the
technique.
Since this is not a new discovery, it is reasonable to expect that the
team doctor is aware of this and knows how to use it.
Quoted message said:Urine tests are woefully innacurate, since they don't measure the
level of testosterone in the blood, they only measure how much was
excreted by the body. The UCI knows of the innacuracy, but insists on
using urine tests anyway, probably because they're cheaper than blood
tests. To date, every athlete that has challenged testosterone urine
tests has won their case. There are reports that there was synthetic
testosterone in Landis' urine, which would certainly be problematic
for him.
Written like someone coaching Floyd's defense team. Urine tests are
fine since clearance rates through urinary excretion are consistent
except in the presence of a pathological condition. Doing venipuncture
carries health risks and shouldn't be done unless there is no other way
to obtain the necessary information (e.g., hematocrit), so urine tests
are used for as many things as is reasonable.
Quoted message said:OTOH, his levels were legal after the stages before and
after the stage in question (17), which raises serious questions
about the testing. It seems unlikely that an athlete's T-E ratio
could go from legal levels to 11:1 and back to legal levels in 48
hours.
Actually, that's entirely reasonable. The half life of testosterone is
short and it is mostly excreted within six hours, according to the
information I was able to find.
Quoted message said:The lab used by the TDF has serious problems of its own. It has been
compromised by the French press (L'Equipe specifically) and
information is constantly leaked by an internal source. It was
reviewed independently after the most recent recent Lance Armstrong
debacle and the report lambasted the lab for inadequate/improper
safeguards and procedures, essentially discrediting it in the L.A.
case. Why the TDF still uses the same lab is anybody's guess, since
one would think they'd want to use a lab that doesn't have a history
of problems.Right now, there are far more questions than answers in this case.
Only questions from the perspective of the public, since the answers to
many of the questions you pose are known- just not released.
Quoted message said:Specifically:
- What is Floyd's natural T/E ratio?
- What was the actual T-E ratio in the tests?
- How much of a difference was there with the results after the
previous and subsequent stages. It makes a big difference if Floyd
was 3.9:1 before and after (just under the legal limit) and 4.1:1 in
the tests (just over the legal limit) vs. being 1:1 before/after and
11:1 in the tests.- How much could his (legal) medication and self-medication (drinking
after stage 16) have influenced the test results?
Not at all. Indeed, if anything the excessive fluid use was an attempt
to keep his urine dilute and thus to keep the testosterone level in the
sample as low as possible.
Quoted message said:- Were the A and B test results consistent (they were both high, but
we don't know if they were the same)....and for the conspiracy theorists...
- Why does the UCI/TDF rely on urine tests when they KNOW they're
innacurate.
Because they are not inaccurate as you claim. Stop spreading the FUD
defense.
Quoted message said:- Why did the UCI drop it's T-E ratio standard to 4:1 THIS year?
Probably to be consistent with the WADA standard, which has been 4:1 for
quite some time. Not that the decrease is relevant to the case, as only
a small fraction of people have T:E ratios above 4:1.
Quoted message said:- Is it possible that the urine sample container given to Landis was
"spiked" with testosterone and is there any way to determine if that
was the case?
Yeah, if his ratio was about 7000:1. In order to plausibly spike the
sample, the spiker would need to have known Floyd's normal ratios, the
level of concentration of his urine, the volume of urine that would be
in the sample jar, etc. This is just grasping at straws- just like
floyd is doing.
Quoted message said:- Exactly how desperate are the French to have someone other than an
American win their beloved race?
Finally you get down to it. The American can't be guilty, it must be
the damned French. But they'd have had to spike the samples of a few
riders to get a French winner, eh?
Quoted message said:It will be interesting to see how this plays out when the actual test
data is revealed and tests are conducted by another lab (assuming
they are). Landis has already been convicted in the press, by his
team and by the organizers of the TDF, but this case is far from
over.
[censored]. The legal dance isn't over, but Floyd's career probably is.
The reported presence of synthetic testosterone in his sample is the
last nail in the coffin. The fat lady is warming up in the green room.